Topic: crazy idea for recording a drumkit using fig-8 + card?

[trajhip2000]

A friend of mine who's a pretty experienced taper suggested this setup for recording a drum kit with only two channels - a modified mid-side where the fig 8 and card are more or less coincident horizontally but separated vertically, with the fig 8 centered as an overhead, and the card centered on the kick [edit for clarity - the fig-8 and kick mics to be mixed as mid-side]. His claim is that because the mics are still horizontally coincident and the card is in the null for the fig-8 there won't be any phasing issues. Color me skeptical - especially since he's never done it, but he's pushing me to try it. Anybody have an opinion as to how this well might (or might not) work?

Steve

[boojum]

I run a card just above my fig 8.  The fig 8 lobes are in the horizontal plane.  That sounds like what you friend is talking about or you are describing.  I have never tried it on drums.  It would work but also it approximates an XY pattern in sound imaging.

Drums usually work best with a lot of mics because of the variety of sounds and the huge dynamic range.

My advice would be to try it and see how it works.  If it does work, good for you!  If not, oh, well, what to try next?
Phasing: a rough rule is that you are in phase up to about a foot according to Eargle.  I just checked for another app I am using.

Cheers

[trajhip2000]

If your friend is talking about a large amount of vertical separation (centered vertically on the kick  ), I'd be worried about the snare, which would also be in the null of the fig 8, and not picked up much in the kick mic either.  It would also be highly dependent on reverberent sound to pick up much of the rest of the kit, which would make it very susceptible to the quality of the room.

Instead, Google the "Recorderman" method for recording drums with two mics (of any type; card, omni, etc).

I probably didn't explain the proposed setup all that well - the idea is to have the card right in front of the center of the kick and close, so that's mostly what it picks up, and the fig-8 as an overhead but more or less centered on the card, with the lobes pointing left and right. I think that way you will get snare from one of the fig-8 lobes - although as I see it, if you try and keep the fig-8 aligned with the card it'll be a bit too far out front and will get a lot of cymbals (typically overheads are a bit back from the front of the drum kit from what I've seen).

I'll be sure and take a look for the "Recorderman" method, thanks for the tip.

Steve

[boojum]

FWIW - The Shure DMK57-52 is the standard rock drum kit for concerts.  It is three SM57's (dynamic cards) and a PS-2, another dynamic card for the kick.  One SM57 goes on one tom but aimed between the two, one on the snare and one on the floor and the PS-2 on the kick.  Studio would be along those lines, better mics, maybe, and maybe a couple more mics.  You can always throw away what you don't need, as the previous poster pointed out.   You can get away with a card over the drummer's right shoulder or by his right knee, but you had better place it and aim it just right.

But try what you have in mind.  It may work, or it may need some adjustment, but you may also have a slick technique.  Go for it.

[trajhip2000]

sorry, next time I'll have to do a better job with my initial post - I'm thinking about a live recording situation here with limited channels, and the idea would be to mix the (separated) card and fig-8 as mid-side, so it would be a (pseudo) stereo setup on the drums. For the band I'm thinking of the drummer sets his snare to the left of the kick, so I don't think it would be in the null of the fig-8, altho his upper tom might be a little. To me the big question is what the impact of the vertical separation between the mid and side mics would be.

Steve

[Church-Audio]

sorry, next time I'll have to do a better job with my initial post - I'm thinking about a live recording situation here with limited channels, and the idea would be to mix the (separated) card and fig-8 as mid-side, so it would be a (pseudo) stereo setup on the drums. For the band I'm thinking of the drummer sets his snare to the left of the kick, so I don't think it would be in the null of the fig-8, altho his upper tom might be a little. To me the big question is what the impact of the vertical separation between the mid and side mics would be.

Steve

I have done this live and it works great mind you I just used the VP-88 as an overhead.. Not as a main source.. For a studio technique this could work provided you have a drummer that has a great balance in the way he hits everything... I usually find I put a compressor on the overheads so that when the drummer hits hard it compresses and when he hits softly the overheads open up. I think the best way to find out if it works is to try it. Every situation is different and there is no one thing that works for everything. You will not have any phase issues because your bass mic is a cardioid and so is your overheads.. and they are way to far apart.. I think you might have more flexibility in the end with three separate mics. But that's just my opinion.

Chris

[ArchivalAudio]

so I can see the need and idea for a simple  low  mic use for a live situation
this could wiork nice if it ware in a jazz combo situation with tons of space on the stage.....

but may be the 8  more as a front overhead just over the drummer and the card in verticle line with that ?

or like you said but the card out a couple of feet front he kick 

never mind

I don't know
but it would be fun to try out

[F.O.Bean]

like they have all said, there is only ONE WAY to try it and report back to this thread so we know whats up

But if you have to nail it the first time, I agree, go w/ MS overheads. Thats what I would do anyway. The lowend of the bass drum should cut thru the mix just fine