Topic: possible upgrade?

[jobseek2001]

Hello,

I have been using the Sennheiser variant of the MM HSLC-1's, I believe they have 40 in the type number.
These miniature cardioid mics work well with a classic DIY batterybox (9V, resistor, capcacitor, etc).
I like the clip that comes with them.
Only 'problem' so far is that in front of some stacks I get bass distortion when I get real close.

So...

What would I consider for upgrade?
Cardioid, small, no preamp, etc?

Or...

Maybe wait for the newer DPA408x versions?
Do the 3-wire 2K2 mod?

Any real info's out there?
Great leads towards a real upgrade?

JS

[Belexes]

You could get the Senns modded with a 2.2k or 4.7k resistor to lower their sensitivity for high SPL situations.

[Arni99]

check this thread for related information:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,94582.0.html

[jobseek2001]

Thanks very much for the info.
After some searching I found that Sennheiser specifies an 8K2 resistor at 5V for the 3-wire situation in their elec-wire.pdf file.
In the discussions about 3-wire I see 4K7 and 2K2 mentioned.

Currently I have the two wire setup with 9V and the 8K2 resistor.

Which 3-wire resistor is the right one?


Also:

From the answers I gather that there is no real upgrade possible at this point in time?
The mics are good enough when used (powered etc)  properly?

[Church-Audio]

Thanks very much for the info.
After some searching I found that Sennheiser specifies an 8K2 resistor at 5V for the 3-wire situation in their elec-wire.pdf file.
In the discussions about 3-wire I see 4K7 and 2K2 mentioned.

Currently I have the two wire setup with 9V and the 8K2 resistor.

Which 3-wire resistor is the right one?


Also:

From the answers I gather that there is no real upgrade possible at this point in time?
The mics are good enough when used (powered etc)  properly?

You should use my 4.7k mod to do this all you have to do is remove the 3.5mm jack that is on your mics now and solder a 4.7k 1% matched metal film resistor in between ground and the white wire on your mics after that you will not have the distortion issues. You must do the same for both sides... So you should find very small resistors if possible 1/8th watt or Surface mount are preferred. It takes a bit if skill to do this so if your not up for it you can send them to me. I charge $25.00 for it because I replace the jack and its very time consuming to do it right because of the space issues. Your mics distortion level is 6% at 114db at 1k after my mod its 05% at 114db at 1k.

[jobseek2001]

Thanks a lot for the offer.

What I meant with the 8k2 mention by Sennheiser:



Which value is right?

My mics have a Lemo coaxial plug. Can you handle those and replace by mini-XLR Lemo?

[Church-Audio]

Thanks a lot for the offer.

What I meant with the 8k2 mention by Sennheiser:



Which value is right?

My mics have a Lemo coaxial plug. Can you handle those and replace by mini-XLR Lemo?

If your having distortion issues with your mic convert it to two wire via a 3.5mm stereo plug and then use my mod you dont need all of this three wire nonsense to get the best performance out of your mics.

Chris

[jobseek2001]

It's an interesting option.

Can anybody please explain how and how well the Churchaudio mod will work versus the full 3-wire setup?


Would that resistor fit in a coaxial Lemo plug as used on the Sennheiser?

[fmaderjr]

Since you're relatively new here, you probably haven't read a lot of Chris Church's posts and other members discussion of the quality of his work.

If Chris says "If your having distortion issues with your mic convert it to two wire via a 3.5mm stereo plug and then use my mod you dont need all of this three wire nonsense to get the best performance out of your mics" that is what his tests have shown. He's not saying it to get $25 from you for the mod (which I'm sure is quite a bit of work).

Unless you want to go 3 wire for some other reason, I'm confident that your mics will perform to the best of their ability with the 4.7 k mod, whether you do it yourself or have Chris do it. I believe the modded mic has about 12 DB reduced sensitivity, however, so if you wanted to also use them for quiet show, you might need a preamp.

 

[Belexes]

I believe the modded mic has about 12 DB reduced sensitivity, however, so if you wanted to also use them for quiet show, you might need a preamp.

...and Chris has just such a preamp, ST-9100.

[Will_S]

I believe the modded mic has about 12 DB reduced sensitivity, however, so if you wanted to also use them for quiet show, you might need a preamp.

...and Chris has just such a preamp, ST-9100.

And there's the rub...all of the sudden the mod doesn't cost $25 (which a GREAT deal IMO, you probably can do the mod yourself [I did] but it's probably more aggravation than $25 is worth) but rather $255.

What recorder are you using, and do you often record quiet shows?  If you usually record fairly loud shows and/or you have a recorder with a good built-in preamp, the 4.7k mod (or 2.2, which gives you a little more distortion but costs you less gain) without a preamp may be fine.  If you often are already requiring nearly as much gain out of your recorder as it can give you cleanly, you'll need want a preamp if you do the 4.7K mod.

Also, which of the Sennheiser wiring schemes are you currently using?  Maybe switching to the one with lower gain will solve your problems.

[Church-Audio]

I believe the modded mic has about 12 DB reduced sensitivity, however, so if you wanted to also use them for quiet show, you might need a preamp.

...and Chris has just such a preamp, ST-9100.

And there's the rub...all of the sudden the mod doesn't cost $25 (which a GREAT deal IMO, you probably can do the mod yourself [I did] but it's probably more aggravation than $25 is worth) but rather $255.

What recorder are you using, and do you often record quiet shows?  If you usually record fairly loud shows and/or you have a recorder with a good built-in preamp, the 4.7k mod (or 2.2, which gives you a little more distortion but costs you less gain) without a preamp may be fine.  If you often are already requiring nearly as much gain out of your recorder as it can give you cleanly, you'll need want a preamp if you do the 4.7K mod.

Also, which of the Sennheiser wiring schemes are you currently using?  Maybe switching to the one with lower gain will solve your problems.

You dont necessarily need a preamp after the mod. The reduction in gain in most cases can be made up with a very loud show by the internal devices preamp and you dont need a battery box with a recording like an r-09.

[Liquid Drum]

How is that true?? (I'm on about that you need a preamp after the 4.7k mod). I'm not very technical but I guess that if someone is having distortion issues then the music must be loud indeed. Doing the 4.7k mod would just lower the levels a little, with the music being loud anyway it won't make a ''huge'' difference. So you wouldn't need a pre-amp.

$25 is a bloody STEAL for Chris to do the mod, I've just got my mics back and they look great. The new jack looks a 100 times better than the previous jack and now I'm more confident that I can run these without any distortion.

[Will_S]

How is that true?? (I'm on about that you need a preamp after the 4.7k mod). I'm not very technical but I guess that if someone is having distortion issues then the music must be loud indeed.

He says "Only 'problem' so far is that in front of some stacks I get bass distortion when I get real close."  So most of the time the music isn't loud enough to cause distortion.  The key issue is how often he tapes quieter shows, I agree that for loud shows (even those not quite loud enough to have problems with distortion) he wouldn't need a preamp.

[Roving Sign]

How is that true?? (I'm on about that you need a preamp after the 4.7k mod). I'm not very technical but I guess that if someone is having distortion issues then the music must be loud indeed. Doing the 4.7k mod would just lower the levels a little,

Not sure I'd call it "a little..." - I forget if the reduction is 6 or 12db - but either way - thats a lot IMO...

[Church-Audio]

How is that true?? (I'm on about that you need a preamp after the 4.7k mod). I'm not very technical but I guess that if someone is having distortion issues then the music must be loud indeed. Doing the 4.7k mod would just lower the levels a little,

Not sure I'd call it "a little..." - I forget if the reduction is 6 or 12db - but either way - thats a lot IMO...

12 db of gain is alot but when your talking a really loud show its not that much because your signal to noise ratio will be very low. Besides if you were running three wire you would have a loss of 13.5 db or so. 12db can be made up by most internal preamps with a really loud SPL but there are cases where an external preamp will be necessary.
I just dont want to come off as someone that is trying to "push" my gear onto people. 
Chris

[Church-Audio]

stepping back from the stack, a wee bit, is probably the easiest fix.

Actually these mics have pretty poor SPL handling.. When wired in a 2 wire configuration. Like the AT 853 series there best performance only comes out when you go three wire or use my mod.

Chris

[Liquid Drum]

As I said, I'm not too technical so I'm probably wrong, lol.

All I know is that while my mics were 'away' I loaned some AT933 that had the low-sens mod done and I taped a loud rock show (from a few metres in front of SBD) with a standard battery box into my R-09. Levels on R-09 were at 10 and it was peaking around -15.

Even when amplifying in post, I can't hear the noise floor at all, I suppose its because of 24-bit.

In the long run, I guess its best to get a preamp because then you're fixed for loud and quiet shows but its not ESSENTIAL imo when having the mod done.

What I'm trying to say is you don't need to drop $225 or so at the 1 time. You can get the mod done for $25 and then save up for the preamp in the long run if need be.

[jobseek2001]

How is that true?? (I'm on about that you need a preamp after the 4.7k mod). I'm not very technical but I guess that if someone is having distortion issues then the music must be loud indeed.

He says "Only 'problem' so far is that in front of some stacks I get bass distortion when I get real close."  So most of the time the music isn't loud enough to cause distortion.  The key issue is how often he tapes quieter shows, I agree that for loud shows (even those not quite loud enough to have problems with distortion) he wouldn't need a preamp.

Indeed. The problem occurs sometimes. Not all the time or too often. Only in the more extreme situations, but my ears w/ cotton handle the SPL, so why not the mics?
The R-09 is at 4-7 or so, line in; so there is plenty of gain (or less attenuation) to go. I even could increase the battery box resistor somewhat to get more signal into the line in.

Would it be possible to fit a resistor inside a Lemo Coaxial plug as used by Sennheiser? Or would near the mic capsule be the best location?

[Church-Audio]

How is that true?? (I'm on about that you need a preamp after the 4.7k mod). I'm not very technical but I guess that if someone is having distortion issues then the music must be loud indeed.

He says "Only 'problem' so far is that in front of some stacks I get bass distortion when I get real close."  So most of the time the music isn't loud enough to cause distortion.  The key issue is how often he tapes quieter shows, I agree that for loud shows (even those not quite loud enough to have problems with distortion) he wouldn't need a preamp.

Indeed. The problem occurs sometimes. Not all the time or too often. Only in the more extreme situations, but my ears w/ cotton handle the SPL, so why not the mics?
The R-09 is at 4-7 or so, line in; so there is plenty of gain (or less attenuation) to go. I even could increase the battery box resistor somewhat to get more signal into the line in.

Would it be possible to fit a resistor inside a Lemo Coaxial plug as used by Sennheiser? Or would near the mic capsule be the best location?

If your using a lemo connector your still running three wire. My mod only works if you convert the mics to "two wire" and rewire them to a 3.5 mm stereo plug. btw after this mod any 5 volt plug in power source provided the mic input it self will not overload will power these mics just fine. And increasing the voltage to 9 volts has very little effect on the mics distortion performance. So if you want to really "fix" the problem you have to cut off the lemo connectors or make a 2 wire battery box that uses lemo's and is actually two wire.

So what would happen is you have three wires in your lemo connector one red, one white, and one ground.

The ground and the white wire would have a 4.7k resistor between them, the red wire would become your signal wire. The white wire would "would not be connected to anything but the 4.7k resistor. And you would only be using two wires now from each mic. You would then have to build a simple battery box with a pair of 4.7k resistors going from the + side of a battery directly to the red wires. Then you would have a set of 10uf caps going from the red wires to your battery boxes output. The ground wire would simply continue on to the output terminal of your battery box. That's it. Pretty simple I am sure there are lots of pictures floating around of this circuit. If you want to get really fancy you can put in a DPDT switch across both 4.7k resistors and use the switch to "short" them out. This will then give you back the 12 db of gain loss from the mod and allow you to use your mics in situations where your tapeing acoustic stuff. PLEASE FORGIVE my crude drawing... I am not very good at drawing anything but this was the best I could do.

[Will_S]

OK, if you're using an R09 you could probably go with the 4.7K mod and be fine with no preamp, I use 4.7K modded AT853s and the R09 provides enough clean gain for all but acoustic shows, and I believe the MKE40s are significantly hotter than the AT853s.  But the R09 doesn't provide a full 5V of plug in power so you might still need a battery box, although I've taped moderately loud rock shows with no problems, I'm never right up against the stacks though.

One thing to keep in mind though, if you have the 4.7K mod done right in the (rather big) miniplug connector the way most people do, that could put extra strain on the R09's fragile input jack.  Might want to do something like what I did, doing the mod in a little bulge along the length of the cable, actually putting the resistors in at the same point you connect the bare leads from the mic cables to some lighter, more flexible wires attached to a low-profile right angle miniplug like you could scavenge from some cheap headphones:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,90977.msg1254469.html#msg1254469

[jobseek2001]

Thanks for the input.
I will try to find a place that can do the mod to see if that helps.

Suggestions for mic upgrades (no phantom, no pre, small, cardioid) remain welcome.

[Will_S]

Thanks for the input.
I will try to find a place that can do the mod to see if that helps.

Suggestions for mic upgrades (no phantom, no pre, small, cardioid) remain welcome.

The Church Audio or AT853 mics will offer better bass extension, but there is a nice flavor to the HLSCs.  If you're happy with the bass you get now, I wouldn't call either an upgrade, just a lateral move.

There's really nothing else in plug-in-powered cardioids that's an improvement on this trio IMO.  Maybe the mini cards coming from DPA will fit the bill, judging from the stats the version they have out now is really lacking in the low end.

DPA 406X or Sennheiser MKE2s could be nice if you'd consider omnis.

[Roger Gustavsson]

Question: "Would it be possible to fit a resistor inside a Lemo Coaxial plug as used by Sennheiser?"

Answer: "If your using a lemo connector your still running three wire."

A coaxial plug would normally mean that there are only two conductors.

[Ekib]

Thanks for the input.
I will try to find a place that can do the mod to see if that helps.

Suggestions for mic upgrades (no phantom, no pre, small, cardioid) remain welcome.

In all the years I have been taping I do find the Core-Sound Cardioid ( the $ 250 version ) the best mic for my needs. I have heard many recordings with different mic's and everytime I just come back to the good old CSCD's.
Why I like em so much ?
Just because they capture the sound the way I like it. I record a lot of metal and the main problem are the bassdrums and the bass. I have tried the MM highline's. And I totally dislike the way they capture the bassdrums. I have tried equalizing those recordings but nothing ever can fix those overdone bassdrums. They just capture too much of a bass to me. Same for the binaural's. Now I know some people come up with bass roll off's and all that stuff. But why bother doing all that stuff when there is a mic that capture's enough bass yet not too much ?
I know the con argument's against the CSCD's. Many fellow tapers find them too thin. All I can say is that most concerts sound treble anyway. I have never heard a concert where you hear bass the way a general binaural mic capture sthe sound. It sounds so fake to me , all that addded bass. If I remove my earplugs for a moment during a gig generally all you hear are the higher tones.

It doesn't hurt trying them out I'd think.
I only wish I knew about CSCD longer than just since 1998...it would have made my older recordings ( done with different mic's ) better sounding...

I honestly think Len's a genius for building such a great mic !
I will never change to a different mic again.

[Alchemy]

I wouldn't rule out the AT 943s either. After listening to many 853 tapes and running 943s myself, I find I like the sound of the 943s better. What the 943s lack in "fullness", they gain in detail. And you better believe those mics will pick up plenty of bass if positioned correctly. They are also smaller for stealth applications.

I also would not rule out the three wire powering option. Mini-XLR connectors are huge plus considering the secure connectors.  Using three wire powering is a much more proper way of powering AT microphones.

Also, in the case of loud shows, you don't need an external pre that will just end up overloading on you.

moke is right on too IMO, come away a bit from the stacks! 
(Stand wherever you'd like, this is merely a suggestion.)

[jobseek2001]

Question: "Would it be possible to fit a resistor inside a Lemo Coaxial plug as used by Sennheiser?"

Answer: "If your using a lemo connector your still running three wire."

Lemo is just a brand name and the plug I have on the mics is coaxial. (as I wrote)

The cable has three wires some of which are shorted at the connector.

[jobseek2001]

I think I had enough input after posting my question.
I am now researching ways to mod the mics to the Churchaudio 4K7 situation.
I'd say an smd resistor at the capsule is the nicest solution. Let's hope I can find someone that can do this.

[nameloc01]

The debating is insane....the most fool-proof,simplest,way to run the 853s is with a phantom power setup. Modifying the mics so they "work" some less expensive alternative way seems to me...well...just plain silly.          unless i am incorrect..the mod will not make them perform -and this is key...exactly !- like a phantom setup. Right?

[Will_S]

The debating is insane....the most fool-proof,simplest,way to run the 853s is with a phantom power setup. Modifying the mics so they "work" some less expensive alternative way seems to me...well...just plain silly.          unless i am incorrect..the mod will not make them perform -and this is key...exactly !- like a phantom setup. Right?

Actually this is wrong, as has been stated multiple times the capsule sees the same thing with direct wiring to a 3 wire battery box or with phantom ADAPTERS taking phantom power and converting it into the same thing the capsules see with direct 3 wire power.  The capsules NEVER see phantom power, if they did, they'd fry.  The 4.7K mod is different, but offers the same performance.

And phantom power is not the simplest way to actually run in the field.  Much simpler in the field to simply plug 4.7K modded mics directly into a suitable preamp or even the mic in of suitable devices, rather than futz around with the bulky adapters and a phantom supply.

Edit:  I suppose an argument for the phantom ADAPTER route is that it keeps the mics stock as provided by AT, and therefore this could help with warranty issues etc.  The same would be true of 3 wire power through mini XLRs though, as long as you keep the long stock wires.

[nameloc01]

I just seem to recall with my sometimes..umm..smoky memory  that when the mod is used you can handle the high spls like with the phantom -but- you lose some gain i think it was. Now it was very little mind you, but it was still there.        now.. An additional mod and or pre was mentioned to combat this issue?               to me it seems like a lot of d.i.y. Just to get them up to where a phantom would have you in the (stock) firstplace.                i have run my u853>ps2  in fos that made it hard to breathe due to the high spls...and i have never not even once came anywhere close to clipping. And they only thing i did with the setup is take it out of the boxes and plug everything in.

[Will_S]

I just seem to recall with my sometimes..umm..smoky memory  that when the mod is used you can handle the high spls like with the phantom -but- you lose some gain i think it was.

The loss in gain is when compared against the two wire plug-in power mod as offered by Sound Professionals, which does offer higher sensitvity (and lower SPL handling) than all the other options mentioned.

[Church-Audio]

The debating is insane....the most fool-proof,simplest,way to run the 853s is with a phantom power setup. Modifying the mics so they "work" some less expensive alternative way seems to me...well...just plain silly.          unless i am incorrect..the mod will not make them perform -and this is key...exactly !- like a phantom setup. Right?

Actually my mod is as good as a phantom setup but much smaller. Now we cant compair a Neve preamp to my $250 preamp. But I can say that the performance very good for its size. I was not trying to sell anything to anyone. I was simply saying that when you do MY mod to these mics they perform as well as any phantom system but you now have alot less shit to carry around and you now have the advantage of going directly into an edriol R09 with out any other gear being required for loud shows. For moderately loud shows a preamp maybe recommended.

Chris

[Church-Audio]

The debating is insane....the most fool-proof,simplest,way to run the 853s is with a phantom power setup. Modifying the mics so they "work" some less expensive alternative way seems to me...well...just plain silly.          unless i am incorrect..the mod will not make them perform -and this is key...exactly !- like a phantom setup. Right?

Actually this is wrong, as has been stated multiple times the capsule sees the same thing with direct wiring to a 3 wire battery box or with phantom ADAPTERS taking phantom power and converting it into the same thing the capsules see with direct 3 wire power.  The capsules NEVER see phantom power, if they did, they'd fry.  The 4.7K mod is different, but offers the same performance.

And phantom power is not the simplest way to actually run in the field.  Much simpler in the field to simply plug 4.7K modded mics directly into a suitable preamp or even the mic in of suitable devices, rather than futz around with the bulky adapters and a phantom supply.

Edit:  I suppose an argument for the phantom ADAPTER route is that it keeps the mics stock as provided by AT, and therefore this could help with warranty issues etc.  The same would be true of 3 wire power through mini XLRs though, as long as you keep the long stock wires.

This is also why I make a 3 wire 9100 with my mod built in and defeatable. So you can run three wire connectors get two wire levels +12db hotter or use my mod -12db less and get good distortion performance + 23db of gain with the flick of a switch. * again I am not trying to sell anything here.

Chris

[jobseek2001]

BTW: can anybody explain (technically) how the mod makes the distortion less?
If the mic membrane is still moving the same, the issue must be with the FET and the currents through it.

[Church-Audio]

BTW: can anybody explain (technically) how the mod makes the distortion less?
If the mic membrane is still moving the same, the issue must be with the FET and the currents through it.

It is the fet. Not the diaphragm. But diaphragm distortion does exist. You understand my mod it is about the current.

Chris