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Author Topic: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?  (Read 5533 times)

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Offline notsofast

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Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« on: October 23, 2009, 05:16:39 PM »
I have been working on my first matrix, have read all I could and even using guidance from a couple of members, thanks to them. I have two questions, on the how to side and the other on choice of software.

This has been a complex effort as the sources were not contiguous. I received the SBD on 2 CD’s and the Aud  I had my V3 drop due to battery power, creating a 10 second drop of signal.

How to Question:
I have been doing the slicing /dicing/syncing method, seems OK, still getting some phasing issues, so I am not happy yet with the results.  I am using Samplitude.  I now want to try the stretch/shrink method for my own learning. Thanks to my mentors, I have a good idea on the theory but I am looking for the practical and specific “how to” within either Samplitude or SF9. Any one familiar with either of those programs and could help with the specifics?

Software Question:
For software I have SF9 and Samplitude 10 demo (30 day trial). I am happy with SF9 for most processing but find it lacking for building a multichannel effort. I like Samplitude and am looking to purchase it or something else like Wavelab or? From a performance and ease of use what do folks recommend?

Thanks in advance,

Tim
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 05:32:29 PM »
I've not timestretched in SAM SE, but it looks to me like you want to use either the Object Editor, Stretch Length or Stretch Factor fields, and Standard mode.  Alternatively, you could use Offline Effects | Resample / Time Stretching, Standard Algorithm, and specify the Stretch Factor or New Length.  Just make sure you leave the Pitch fields at 0 and don't change the BPM fields.  Sorry, I can't provide any more detailed "how to" than that...but it should be reasonably straightforward to implement the theory, I hope.

As for s/w, it's a very personal decision.  Most of the commonly used multichannel audio editors do most of the same stuff.  I've previously tried Wavelab and CEP/Audition, and finally settled on SAM SE.  It's a steeper learning curve, I like it's interface and workflow much better, and it's tough to beat the bang for the buck.
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Offline notsofast

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 05:53:50 PM »
Brian thanks for the quick response. I am leaning towards SAM. It is not clear on their website if the SE V 10 is available for download, yet I could not find it. I think it would suit my needs but can not get it yet for download, I like the SE price better. DId SE become Music Studio 15?

Tim




 
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2009, 06:38:40 PM »
I don't think SAM v10 SE and Music Studio 15 are the same.  They probably share base code, but the feature set looks very different to me.

I can't find SAM v10 SE for download on their site, either.  SAM v10 SE is available, per the SAM v9 SE download page:

Quote from: http://www.samplitude.com/en/shop/samplitude_9_se.352.html
Samplitude 10 SE is available in English. We are currently working on the shop and will update this page within the next time.

So maybe it's available, just not from their online shop.  Not sure.  People are using it, apparently, as there's mention of v10.2 SE in the Support forums.  Maybe try contacting Magix NA sales support:

Quote from: http://www.samplitude.com/en/support/contact.336.html
MAGIX North American
Markus Gunn
1105 Terminal Way #202
Reno, NV 89502
Tel: + 1 905-470-0400
Fax: +1 905-470-0403
Email: mgunn@magix.net
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kirk97132

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2009, 07:10:42 PM »
I ended up with Adobe Audition v3.   I tried Wavelab, Samplitude, Soundforge and Pro Tools.  Audition just feels right for me.  Like Brian said it is a personal choice. 

Offline live2496

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2009, 09:13:05 PM »
I have used the time stretching thing in Samplitude to line up a stereo pair with a multitrack ADAT that were on separate clocks.

From what I remember it was pretty easy. The key factor is calculating the number of samples to stretch the audio by. Then you enter that number into the object editor's timestretch dialog. Upon playback the audio will be stretched by that exact number of samples.

To get the number of samples to stretch by it involves aligning the audio at the beginning and ending of an audio segment. Then calculating how many samples you had to shift one object to get things to line up at the end. Then line up the beginning again and playback using the stretch factor.


 
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stevetoney

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 05:54:02 AM »
I would add to this discussion that if you didn't use a stretch function to time synch the two sources at the start of your work in post, you'll probably have phasing issues every time.  The only way this isn't an issue is if the two sources were recorded to separate pairs on a 4-track recorder, so that the two sources are time synched.  Even tiny differences in timing will result in drift over the course of the length of a song or a show...which of course ends up sounding like reverb on the mixdown when the two sources eventually time-drift farther apart from each other.

Bottom line is that the very first thing to do in post every time you're working with pairs is to stretch/shrink to get the two sources time synched.

Offline notsofast

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 10:42:20 AM »
I appreciate the advice from all, I did some work as outlined in Samplitude, seems to be working once I got the math straight. I have reached out to find Samplitude SE, await the vendor response.

Thanks to all for helping me up and over the learning curve.

Tim
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 11:30:17 AM »
Glad to hear the stretch method seems to be working for you.  Please let us all know when/what you find out about SAM 10 SE availability?
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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2009, 11:39:02 AM »
Vegas is real easy to use for matrix and works side side to side SF Tim but even easier thing to do is sale your toyz and buy my R4 ;)
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easy jim

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 12:36:59 PM »
Glad to hear the stretch method seems to be working for you. 

Getting excited to hear the results when you're done.  8)

Offline notsofast

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 01:10:07 PM »
Two words Rowjimmytour.....El Nino!

I got a copy of Vegas, older one, and will play with it as well, just to get my chops and see if I can manage it. I am still learning the programs and looking for the one that calls to me. SAM is nice, the demo I have actually brought in the Sony FX's and I can utilize there as well.

Tim

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Offline notsofast

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 11:10:13 AM »
Well I heard back from Markus, nothing new to report, I will let folks know what I hear in the future.

"Hi Tim,
Sorry for the delayed response.  Our dev team is still working on the Samplitude 10 SE version.  We’ll contact you as soon as it becomes available.  Thanks for your interest in MAGIX and Samplitude. 
Cheers,
Markus "

Again thanks so much for the advice, I think I have everything sync'd and ready to do the final mix down.  Tonight I will do that and with luck Jim you will be listening to the pull this weekend.

Tim
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 11:28:39 AM »
Well I heard back from Markus, nothing new to report, I will let folks know what I hear in the future.

"Hi Tim,
Sorry for the delayed response.  Our dev team is still working on the Samplitude 10 SE version.  We’ll contact you as soon as it becomes available.  Thanks for your interest in MAGIX and Samplitude. 
Cheers,
Markus "

Again thanks so much for the advice, I think I have everything sync'd and ready to do the final mix down.  Tonight I will do that and with luck Jim you will be listening to the pull this weekend.

Tim
:cheers:
Cool Tim and like learning how to ride a bike it gets easier each time. ;)
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kirk97132

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 02:52:28 PM »
Two words Rowjimmytour.....El Nino!

I got a copy of Vegas, older one, and will play with it as well, just to get my chops and see if I can manage it. I am still learning the programs and looking for the one that calls to me. SAM is nice, the demo I have actually brought in the Sony FX's and I can utilize there as well.

Tim
Watch your demo EFX.  Sometimes they will only let yo do a small sample or it inserts a chime every 30 seconds or will not let yo save the effect to the clip. 

Offline Sebastian

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 03:40:34 PM »
I just mixed my first matrix in almost two years. It was the first time I used Apple's Logic for such a thing and I must say I'm really impressed. All I had to do was to line up the beginnings of the two sources, then use Logic's "Flex" view to add markers on one of the sources. Then I dragged these Flex markers to compensate for any drifting in the two sources and Logic did all the syncing/time stretching for me.

Offline junkyardt

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2009, 09:46:22 PM »
i've got a question related to matrixes in Cool Edit Pro, hopefully there's an easy answer and i just don't know where to look. ok, this first part isn't really directly related but i'm just laying out the concept i'm after--i have an issue with my Denecke PS-2 that causes very brief channel dropouts if i bump one of the XLR connectors while recording. so, to fix these dropouts (usually just for a fraction of a second), i just highlight the small section i want, go to channel mixer in CEP and patch the left channel to the right or vice versa to eliminate the bad channel. so for that fraction of a second i'll have 2-channel mono, but that's of course better than having one channel mono with one channel completely missing.

so...now i'm matrixing 2 sources and i've got the time stretch figured out and the sync itself is done pretty well, but one of these sources has some small issues here and there that, like the channel dropouts i mentioned, also only occur for a fraction of a second. and they are pretty annoying. so basically i'd like to be able to look at the matrix in multitrack view before saving the mixdown, and go through it and wherever the issues occur, highlight that small section of the mix and specify that the mix should only contain one of the two sources for that fraction of a second (the non-problematic one obviously). so i know the concept i'm after (what i described in the first paragraph regarding 2 channels of one source) but i can't seem to find what feature in CEP i should use to accomplish a similar result when dealing with 2 sources. can anyone point me in the right direction here?

Offline bobcat

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 03:02:29 PM »


 join the club! i just attempted to 'matrix' a recording of mine and the first 5 tunes i got pretty easy.only by cutting up the file at the beginning and basically getting lucky..

 im having a lot of problems though. i dont know how to sync them up in adobe. im reading about time stretching and this and that...can someone piont me in the right direction a little? i guess u have to go to the 'EDIT' section of the program and do one track at a time?? its just confusing the way it works,,but i really want to do this..!   hope someone can help out a bit.

 cheers.

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 03:18:26 PM »
JumkyardT...you can accomplish things like that by opening an automation lane for the track you want excluded and put markers in at that point.  I'm not where I can check on my Audition but I think you can have it turn mute on and off.  If not you can just drop the volume down for those sections. 

bobcat...you can only stretch/shrink one track at a time.  And yes you have to do it in edit view in Audition.  As for syncing sources recorded on same recorder(IE:4track)  insert them in multitrack and then drag sources so that peaks line up.  Assuming that you are trying to overcome something like the mics back in room and sbd issue.  If it is two different sources you will need to get them to the same length(stretch/shrink).

Offline bobcat

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 04:48:16 PM »

 thanks kirk for your help. i got the stretch part going on i think properly. ...wll see how this goes..its a pain in the ass to matrix no matter what way u look at it..god.. :/ i wont be doing this very often at all..im sort regretting it already :S

kirk97132

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 05:16:45 PM »
I found that no matter what calculations I treid it still comes down to trial and error getting the settings right.  What I have found is that no matter what recorders I've used the differences were never more than 0.006%.  Hope that helps

Offline bobcat

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 05:34:37 PM »

 i hope so too man, what im mixing is two recordings off MD of the same show. one thing i noticed..i got a couple pops in a few tunes i made..i wonder why that is? they arent on the original files..just the matrix.. hmm

 also is it normal that  the 'mixdown' file once u matrix is in 20HZ? in the settings thats the default. just wondering if my conversion to 14hz has anything to do with that.. doubt it but who knows..this is very complex! but i want to do it right!

 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 05:36:16 PM by bobcat »

kirk97132

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2009, 12:47:00 PM »

 i hope so too man, what im mixing is two recordings off MD of the same show. one thing i noticed..i got a couple pops in a few tunes i made..i wonder why that is? they arent on the original files..just the matrix.. hmm

 also is it normal that  the 'mixdown' file once u matrix is in 20HZ? in the settings thats the default. just wondering if my conversion to 14hz has anything to do with that.. doubt it but who knows..this is very complex! but i want to do it right!

I use: File > Export > audio mixdown Depending on what I'm doing I either save it in the 32 bit 48Hz.  I record in 24/48.  I dunno what you are talking about with the 20 and 14 Hz settings.  Is that what a mini disc uses?  You set all that stuff any way you choose.  So it's up to you.  I can't answer you question about pops.  But remember when mixing you are summing the signals (adding them) so if each recording has a high peak in the same spot the mix could have an even higher peak.  You want to make sure you mixdown isn't clipping the signal.  Read up on the sticky at the top of this thread. 

Offline notsofast

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2009, 03:25:29 PM »
I intially had some clicks/pops in my intial efforts to do a matrix. In working with Easyjim I came to realize that I was experiencing phase issues. I went back and did more playing with it and they did go away as I got the sync down. Math + (trial + error) = results.

I woulsd also say one of my leassons learned was during the mix down to be cautious on out put levels, I ran -6 to be safe. Again advice from others said I could compensate post mix down and I found that worked nicely for me.

I want to thank all for this info share, it has helped a lot.

Tim
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

Offline bobcat

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Re: Making a “matrix” and choice of software?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2009, 03:30:23 PM »
 actually i found out what the 'pops' were. in adobe it saves the mixdown as 32 bit. i meant 26HZ as in what it says in winamp for the HZ..its either 26 or 28.. cant read it really in that small box..

anyway when i converted the 32 bit file to 16bit i got some pops for some reason..i used dbpoweramp version 11. i know its that for sure cause the original file is pop free. and in my adobe it seems to be no setting to change it permanatley so everytime i go to save a mixdown file now i go and change the frequency..it renders it and walla..comes out 16 bit pop free...weird issue but just a warning for people if they do that..

 (oh,whats a sticky at the top of this thread? a sticky?)
 
 oh kirk..that file i sent you has the pops in it..this is before i realized how to change that. there are three of them but 2 that are more noticeable...u can find them :)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 03:33:24 PM by bobcat »

 

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