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Author Topic: to equalize or not? how to get started?  (Read 6102 times)

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Offline RetroDude83

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to equalize or not? how to get started?
« on: March 22, 2011, 12:59:21 PM »
Hi,

been taping for nearly 3 years now and never used the equalizer in adobe audition on my recordings in post production, when editing them and so on. now I worked on a recording of mine, which definitely needed equalizing. I fucked around for a bit and got a way better result with that handy function, + I saved the eq-settings I applied on the fucked up recording. now I've applyed the same setting on my latest recording which sounded fine to me before and I'm now stoked about the result! I now wonder what's the trick with the equalizer? when do you guys use it and is it really neccessary to equalize each recording? seen lots of tapers doing it with their stuff. I've put up two samples of my latest recording - one being equalized, the other being normal as recorded + a screenshot of the eq-settings performed - and was wondering whether I should equalize the whole thing now or not? or is there a better setting for this recording? also, anyone know where I can find some FAQ's on this topic(equalizing audience recordings, etc.) thanks for reading and any advice!

runonce

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 02:58:29 PM »
I would resist.

The first un-eq'ed version sounds much better to me. This sounds natural and everything seems to be where it should. Nice presence on the sitar-ish sound.

The eq version sounds flat and not as "there" - with the midbass getting all over the mid-range presence. All the life is sucked out of this version. Sitar sounds washed out.

Cant speak for everyone - but I think most of us only resort to eq when something is wildly amiss or we're trying to salvage a fuck up.

I would have to audition a tape on half dozen stereos before I could make any reasonable decisions about eq.

I think its FINE to make an eq'ed version for personal use - but since we all have different stereos, best to circulate the un-equalized version.

Offline Chuck

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 04:56:32 PM »
I did not listen to the samples, but I did look at the EQ plot you used. That's some heavy duty EQ you got going on there. They call that the smiley face curve. You've bumped up the high and low end and cut the mids +/- 9db! I would resist using that much EQ.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:36:09 PM by Chuck »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 06:05:55 PM »
Here's the deal.  EQ is probably the most powerful tool for correcting audio.  Every commercial studio or live recording has extensive EQ applied to it.  Almost all of my recordings benefit from some EQ.  The problem isn't the application of EQ itself, but figuring out what to EQ and how much to apply without making things worse.  Commercial recordings are EQ'd in special highly tuned listening environments that are specially designed for the task, by people who have spent a lot of time figuring out exactly how the sound they hear in that special environment translates to the world outside where people play back the recordings on all different types of equipment.

It contrast is is very difficult for us to make the right corrections without that special environment and without a lot of trial and error practice.  The corrections we end up gravitating to are those that correct inconsistencies of our particular, unique listening environments. Likewise, other corrections that should be made may be masked by deficiencies in that playback/listening environment.  On top of that, even with a highly tuned and controlled environment, it takes a lot of skill to do correctly.  It's very easy even for skilled professionals to fall into the trap of more is better, to end up correcting for listening fatigue or for their own listening quirks or hearing response.  Skilled engineers know this and make a big effort to work in short segments, take listening breaks, and refer to other known good sounding recordings as they work.

The short and long of it is that it is very hard to know if what sounds better to you will be an improvement or make things worse for other listeners in different environments. Because of that, often the safest approach is to not do much an let other people EQ the recording themselves if they feel it needs it.  If you want to try EQ'ing your recordings I'd suggest a few things:

1) Use the best, well balanced listening system you have access to and keep in mind that a lot of the EQ adjustment you will be tempted to make is due to the quirks and response of that playback system, not the recorded music itself.  That goes for headphones, your home stereo, your buddy's home studio, or whatever.

2) Listen to some truly excellently produced music that you like of the same genera before starting, and refer back to that regularly while working. Use the sound of the reference recording as a comparative guide.

3) Don't keep at it for too long or try to do it when you are tired. Take lots of breaks, and re-visit it again days later.

4) It's often a good idea to use a bit less EQ than you think you need. 

5) Always work at a known volume level.  You will EQ things differently depending on the perceived loudness. You may want to calibrate your playback system so that you always listen with the same playback gain when you work.  It may be helpful to check the sound at lower and higher levels, but work at that known level to keep things consistent.

6) When you get something you think sounds good in comparison to your reference recording.  Listen to it lots of other places like in the car, on the boom box, at a friend's house, etc. and see if it sounds good there as well. Compare again with your reference recording. Ask trusted freinds who actually care about sound what they think.

If you do all that enough, after a while you’ll learn to work around the peculiarities of your environment, what translates well elsewhere and what doesn’t.  That often means shooting for a target that actually sounds less than perfect on your system, because you've learned what it’s deficiencies are.  The more you do it the better you’ll become at identifying specific EQ ranges, cuts and boosts.  You might want to do some ear training to help with that if you’re serious about it.  If so, here’s an excellent free training program I posted about here recently- How to Listen: Critically Evaluating Recorded And Reproduced Sound
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Offline Chuck

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 06:38:30 PM »
^ Good advice.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

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Offline RetroDude83

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 06:06:30 AM »
Thanks for all the advices guys. Now that I listen to the equalized version again, I find it hard to believe it sounded good to me yesterday. I probably restist on doing any EQing on that particular recording. Anyways, I'll be looking further into this topic, so thanks Gutbucket for the detialed info!

stevetoney

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 02:30:42 PM »
Can't add much to what Gut said other than to contribute/enforce a few of my main thoughts...

-  I EQ almost all of my recordings a few db here and there...they always sound better for it (obviously, or I wouldn't do it). 

-  It can't be overemphasized that you're tweeking to the specific strengths or weaknesses of the system you're listening through.  I try to master my recordings through the same setup that I do most of my listening through.

-  I usually can't reach a final conclusion on what sounds best in one listening.  I often feel different about an EQ job I did a day later.  SAVE THE ORIGINAL UNEDITED FILES!

-  I record in the same locations of the same rooms around town.  I'm learning how each room sounds when I record in it, so I'm learning what general EQ strategy works for what room, but that's far from being a rule because of night-to-night differences in sound engineers, volume, etc.

Offline page

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 02:42:20 PM »
Here's the deal.  EQ is probably the most powerful tool for correcting audio.  Every commercial studio or live recording has extensive EQ applied to it.  Almost all of my recordings benefit from some EQ.  The problem isn't the application of EQ itself, but figuring out what to EQ and how much to apply without making things worse. 

<snip>

3) Don't keep at it for too long or try to do it when you are tired. Take lots of breaks, and re-visit it again days later.

4) It's often a good idea to use a bit less EQ than you think you need. 

6) When you get something you think sounds good in comparison to your reference recording.  Listen to it lots of other places like in the car, on the boom box, at a friend's house, etc. and see if it sounds good there as well. Compare again with your reference recording. Ask trusted freinds who actually care about sound what they think.

I agree with all of this, especially #3, and #4. I didn't realize just how critical (and easy) fatigue is until I listened to results the day or two after for almost a month.

Can't add much to what Gut said other than to contribute/enforce a few of my main thoughts...

-  I EQ almost all of my recordings a few db here and there...they always sound better for it (obviously, or I wouldn't do it). 


Same here. If I have to play with more then about 2db in any direction (or have to make multiple adjustments), then I make a real point of trying to avoid doing much with it until I know I can check a recording on a series of different environments.
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Offline TimeBandit

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 03:13:58 PM »
They way i do with graphical Equalizer is taking a very small curve ( the Q factor set to smallest ), curve set to low volume and "cruising" with it through the whole frequency band while listening. If you reach an area with bad frequencys you really can recognize it.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 04:19:48 PM »
They way i do with graphical Equalizer is taking a very small curve ( the Q factor set to smallest ), curve set to low volume and "cruising" with it through the whole frequency band while listening. If you reach an area with bad frequencys you really can recognize it.

That ties in to something I wanted to add.. plus make a correction.  First the correction (see my the bold added to your post above)- 'Q' or quality factor is a measure of how tight the frequency region is that you are effecting.  But its measure is the opposite of what is indicated above in bold.  A higher Q targets a smaller region of frequencies (makes a more sharply sloped, pointy curve), while a low Q produces a broader, flatter curve that effects a much more generalized area.

What you are suggesting is a common approach to hearing and identifying specific frequency regions.  It's helpful for finding the center frequency of offending resonances that could use taming (be careful here though, since often boominess and other low frequency deviations are a product of the room in which you listen and/or less than great monitors).  It's usually done with a parametric EQ that has a Q adjustment, frequency adjustment and gain adjustment, but it can also be done with a graphic EQ by simply boosting one slider at a time.  The technique is to significantly boost a small frequency region and sweep that boost up and down the spectrum until the offending resonance is obviously exaggerated.  Once you home in on the middle of the offending region, decrease the gain so that group of frequencies are reduced in level instead of boosted.  You may also want to decrease the Q of the filter somewhat to flatten out the curve so that it blends better with the surrounding regions.  Go back and forth with the Q and Gain adjustment to dial in the best sounding result.  The Q of the filter can be reduced on a graphic EQ by making a smoother curve by adjusting the surrounding sliders on either side.  This technique is usually best for reducing the impact of ‘bad stuff’.

What I wanted to add is to be careful about using higher Q curves except when targeting cuts for specific problem sounds.  Higher Q curves are more likely to sound bad in my experience, especially with on boosts.  Once you start to get the sound close to what you want, try smoothing out theEQ curves more and more and see if that improves things.  Lowering the Q to make a broader, smoother curve (or adjusting the graphic sliders to form a gentle slope instead of abrupt cliffs) can make a big difference.  Often when I revisit something I EQ’d and it doesn’t sound as good as I remember, I find that I had targeted the correct regions, but just applied too aggressive of a curve in an attempt to hear the change.  In those cases, simply smoothing out and possible flattening the curves somewhat helps.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 02:48:43 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Shadow_7

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 07:25:58 PM »
EQ can help, but ideally you'll have gear that doesn't require it.  Or much of it.  EQ can still help a lot of content, but if you're doing > 3dB adjustments, you're doing too much IMO.  The main problem that I have with EQ is that what I like today, is NOT what I like tomorrow.  And if/when I do find what I like a lot, that means going back and RE-authoring a number of DVDs since I first started recording.

I do EQ.  But I'm compensating for old mics (reduced high end) and fake fur (more reduced high end).  Or I"m doing something content specific like taking the boom boom out of the musak in the background.  As it's not the subject of interest.  I used to do a +4dB bump to the low end, then a year plus later a +3dB to the high end.  Pretty much same everything, mics, recorder, venue, content on both.  I'll probably lean towards +2dB on the high end for my next attempts.  Knowing that less is more and what I like today may not be what I like tomorrow.  Plus taking a 7 hour drive and listening to the results of 30 minutes of content repeatedly over that 7 hours let me know that 3dB is too much.  YMMV

Offline acidjack

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2011, 02:00:28 PM »
Lots of good info summarized above.  Some folks here are completely opposed to EQ which I find odd, at least when you are talking about recording amplified music live in rooms.  By the time you hear that music you are recording, tons of decisions have been made about the sound, coloring and changing it - the most obvious being the EQ done at the soundboard, plus the choice of venue mics used.  Not to mention that hardly any live room sounds perfect to start with. 

That said, the 'less is more' approach is key.  I tend to do about what Steve says he does - I record in the same rooms over and over, so I usually find that I need to trim a few dB here or there or boost the highs a couple dB here or there to compensate for how they sound.  I find that the frequencies where room reflections are problematic and muddy up the sound are the ones I target the most. 
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Offline ghellquist

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2011, 08:03:22 AM »
A lot of good advice already.

I do EQ when needed, generally not otherwise.

I tend to always apply a high-pass filter set around 20 Hz. Especially when using omni mics-- my omnis goes down to a few Hertz. The low frequencys below around 40Hz seldom has any music content in a field recording, exceptions are some organ music and the large bass drum in an orchestral setting. The things coming in there are most often buses and lorrys outside the room.

When EQ-ing the rest of the frequencys I sometimes do it. It takes really good listening equipment and room, as already mentioned, as well as experience in order to not EQ the wrong things. Generally I only do it if I know exactly what I want to EQ off. It might be a really annoying room sound or similar things.

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Offline Todd R

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2011, 03:17:16 PM »
I also agree -- a lot of good info here.

I sometimes eq recordings when I think I need them.  Almost always when I do it is to tame the low end a bit.  Sometimes though, esp if I've been FOB recording, I find the high end too much and I tame that.

Overall though, 2-3db change is a BIG change for me, usually changes are on the order of 1-2db.  Changing things by 1-2db can have a pretty noticeable effect on the resulting sound.  I haven't listened to your original attempt, but it will probably never be the case that you need a 9db change.


Overall, it's funny -- tapers will say, hey, don't rolloff the bass with your equipment when you're recording, do it in post using software so you can see what you're getting.  Then you'll hear from tapers, wait, you shouldn't EQ in post, let people do that individually as they listen.  So the message is, don't change things as you record, do it in post.  But don't change anything in post.  Um, ok.....
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Offline hi and lo

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2011, 04:23:12 PM »
Overall, it's funny -- tapers will say, hey, don't rolloff the bass with your equipment when you're recording, do it in post using software so you can see what you're getting. 

Very true and certainly bad advice if taken as gospel! Applying bass-roll with your equipment can be extremely beneficial and to take a quote from Jon Kjoll here... "Removing some of the low frequency energy leaves the system more robust wrt to taking good care of the higher frequencies. The upshot is less strain on power supplies, reduced loss in signal caps, less intermodulation distortion, less harmonics added etc .. "

Low frequencies can very quickly eat up the dynamic range available - reducing those before capture frees up dynamic range for everything else.

Offline TimeBandit

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2011, 08:01:33 AM »
They way i do with graphical Equalizer is taking a very small curve ( the Q factor set to smallest ), curve set to low volume and "cruising" with it through the whole frequency band while listening. If you reach an area with bad frequencys you really can recognize it.

That ties in to something I wanted to add..

that´s what i meant, usually i use some hard setting of the EQ just to find out the bad areas, on the final master is use as less EQ as i can.

and i use the bass roll-off on the CA-9100, protects oversteering bass and rumbling good during the record... at the older gear i used before with no roll-off feature i did it in post with a low shelv filter set around 60 to 70 Hertz. I can´t tell THE frequency you have to do it´s a bit of experimenting, depending on the conditions where you taped. Even a single location can sound different in case which band plays there or who has the hands on the board.

and protect yourself against mixing to bad, it takes lots concentration of your ears so more then an hour isn´t useful. Save it as a project file in Cubase or similar and trying again after let it asleep for a day is better.
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Offline ironbut

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2011, 08:06:56 PM »
More fantastic posts by Gutbucket and others here.
Thanks!


Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2011, 09:21:49 PM »
Agreed.  A lot of pertinent info and advice in this thread.

Offline weedwacker

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Re: to equalize or not? how to get started?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2011, 10:03:00 PM »
I personally don't like to eq since my philosophy is you are making an audience recording not a professional one in most cases but as others said all recordings can benefit from some tweaking when done correctly. If I have to tweak I try to tweak for balance like the recording is too sharp add some low end in, the low end is too muddy reduce it and/or add some high end in, stuff like that in general. I let my ears do the decision making.

I think this link was posted here originally so credit goes to whoever did post this first but this is a great chart that breaks down what is where frequency wise which helps greatly in tweaking of audio for the average joe like myself who doesn't do this for a living.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

 

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