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Author Topic: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's  (Read 6764 times)

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Offline jdawg

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Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« on: October 16, 2005, 03:14:32 AM »
Looking for some thoughts on what pre/ad to run with the 480's and for the mk4's.  I've been somewhat of a gear slut lately ;D  I've got a w-mod UA-5 and with the 480's, at least to my ears, it's a little too warm sometimes. But damn, I just love the AKG punch!  Also, I'm currently looking to get a V3 (ISO posted in yard sale). Thinking that the 480's would be great with the V3 and hopefully get rid of some of the 'warmness'.  But what about just running the mk4's with the V3?   

Thats why I was thinking maybe get a V3 and do some comparisons with both sets of mics.

After reading so much on Schoeps setups lately, doesnt' seem like just going into a V3 would do it. Seems like you need to invest another grand or so just to get the maximum performance out of these mics. I've listened to many shows on the archive (mk4 >V3) and (480 >v3) and I think I like the 480's more so. The Schoeps seems to lack the bottom-end for me.

Now of course, I don't want to spend anymore money on equipment. So this means selling existing gear to upgrade to something else on the pre/ad side. I'd like to possibly keep the UA-5 because it could come in handy for soundboard/matrix, but then again, who knows ::)

Anyway, thanks for any thoughts!



« Last Edit: October 17, 2005, 02:55:08 PM by john2525az »

Offline shaggy

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2005, 03:37:02 AM »
Sonosax>modSBM, it is what I run with my AKG 480s and it is a good complement IMHO.  The Sax>modSBM as we all know complements the Schoeps CMC6X very well.  I am about to torrent Meltone from Asagiri shortly run onstage 483>Sax>modSBM.  Or you could go the archive link below and grab a few tracks of the Meltone I did a few months back (caution: I ran 481>Sax>modSBM and was pretty far back...maybe not the best representative source to listen to).  The Minime kicks ass with the AKGs and John Crouch was running a V2 in front of a Mme with his CMC5 set up with stunning results. 

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2005, 03:47:22 AM »
really dig the schoeps>sax sound as well, some of the best phish tapes ive ever heard ;D

also dig 480>v3 and 480>m148>v3

480>v2>modsbm1 is decent as well
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline jdawg

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2005, 03:57:24 AM »
Listening to this Meltone (never heard of them before) 7/9/05 481>sax/mod-sbm  - I do like this sound.  What would the sax/sbm combo run me?  hmmm... and which mics would I sell to get that?   ::)   ahhh...it never ends. What about a mini-me? doesnt' that give you the ability to do matrix recordings?


Offline shaggy

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2005, 04:06:10 AM »
My guess is that you will not find a used Sax fast enough to satisfy your jones.  So straight up, those are 1100 new.  Used modSBMs are all over the place...and I think the market rate is $450.

Funny, I just now put the AKGs up for possible sale to satisfy my need for a Schoeps>Nbox set up and I just bot some KM140s and actives.  Fuck, my wife is gonna shit.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2005, 04:27:19 AM »
My guess is that you will not find a used Sax fast enough to satisfy your jones.  So straight up, those are 1100 new.  Used modSBMs are all over the place...and I think the market rate is $450.

Funny, I just now put the AKGs up for possible sale to satisfy my need for a Schoeps>Nbox set up and I just bot some KM140s and actives.  Fuck, my wife is gonna shit.

+T ;D
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline thegreatgumbino

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2005, 09:47:56 AM »
also dig 480>v3 and 480>m148>v3

FWIW, I put up a comparison recording done at home with the 480's run through these two setups.  Might help you with the decision making.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=52183.0
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Offline bagtagsell

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2005, 03:25:54 PM »
to compliate it further, do you want to do 24 bit?  sbm-1 are stuck in 16.
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Offline grider

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2005, 03:51:14 PM »
Shaggy I don't think the best combo is the 480>MiniMe, it just produces a weird sounding bass response with super bassy bands; that said, for a very representative sound with this combo my recordings of Tortoise from 5-20-04 and 6-13-04 are good examples, and excellent recordings I might add, they are in circulation but let me know if you can't find them (Tortoise does not allow archive)

Offline jdawg

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2005, 04:26:24 PM »
to compliate it further, do you want to do 24 bit?  sbm-1 are stuck in 16.


I definately want to stay/go with something in the 24-bit realm.

Offline bagtagsell

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2005, 01:10:08 AM »
what about a tmod+ ua5? That would be a really cheap way to get something transparent and V3ish.  Then take the money you save and buy either a MP2 or a PSP2 and they you can get the warmth too or a 184!  v2>MME, ain't nothin wrong with that (except ergonomics).  And all of these are 24 bit sollutions.
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Offline shaggy

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2005, 01:18:10 AM »
grider,  my experience with the akg>mme was chucky's needing to borrow my 483s to tape small bands in shitty sounding clubs.  They sounded pretty decent.  Especially the Big Frog at Ruido I torrented a month ago on bt.etree.org.  chucky indicated the sound was for shit and despite that is pretty stunned at what he got with the AKG>mme.  I am sold on the mme these days...after the Coldplay I pulled at Fuji Rock with some MBHO 648a/KA200Ns, probably the best tape I have ever made.....

Offline bagtagsell

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2005, 01:29:56 AM »
Quote
I am sold on the mme these days...after the Coldplay I pulled at Fuji Rock with some MBHO 648a/KA200Ns, probably the best tape I have ever made.....
I didn't realize there were so many mme fluffers.  Got to love the calpot scramble. 
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Offline jdawg

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2005, 01:32:23 AM »
what about a tmod+ ua5? That would be a really cheap way to get something transparent and V3ish.  Then take the money you save and buy either a MP2 or a PSP2 and they you can get the warmth too or a 184!  v2>MME, ain't nothin wrong with that (except ergonomics).  And all of these are 24 bit sollutions.

You mean a tmod+ to run with the 480's or the Schoeps?   Why have some other pre-amp in front of the UA-5?  i.e. MP2 or PSP2 ?



Offline bagtagsell

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2005, 01:38:43 AM »
you mentioned you wanted something to warm it up.  I like the philosophy transparent most of the time, but in some crappy rooms need the warmth to even out the sound. 
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Offline stlram

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2005, 08:59:22 AM »
It is amazing that people will recommend that you listen to a recording to decide if you like the equipment combination. With out a point of reference this is by no way a way of determining the accuracy or inaccuracies of any equipment unless there is something wrong with the set up. There are too many uncontrolled variables to get a handle on anything, especially when you are recording P.A. systems in clubs, arenas, ect., which for the most part are compromised by the system, the soundman, venue and the position recorded from, not to mention taking into account the fact that if you weren't there you have no idea what the original sound was like. Sure, you might say it sounds good or bad but good or bad to what reference?

There are mic, pre's etc., that can tailor your sound, if you want to stray from accuracy, such as warm, punchy, zippy, etc., and if that is your cup of tea "go for it", but remember what ever you do to the signal prior to recording it can't be reversed. In my book, it always makes better sense to get the cleanest sound you can get up front and then post-recording do with it as you want. There are all kinds of plug ins that will warm up, punch, compress, expand or equalize your recordings after the fact. I know some folks think this is blasphemy, and I really never use them unless the artist is requesting it but this is what you are doing in your pre-recording when you are putting together a system that gives you that warm, extended, punchy sound and further you can't reverse it. Warm sound is usually a bit of third order harmonic distortion, punch is usually a bit of compression and frequency response is usually determined by the frequency response and polar pattern of the mics used and the mics set up and technique used. 

That being said, the type of equipment you use will be mostly determined by the type of music you record. Do you attend and record mostly P.A. based bands electric bands in large, medium or small venues? Do you record acoustic jazz, classical, bluegrass from the stage?

After you have recorded a concert, you should listen objectively. Don't think, "Do I like the sound of the recording", Do think, "Does the recording sound like the concert I just attended, dynamically, frequency extension and soundstage wise". If you operate off the first "think" you will be on a merry-go-round for the rest of your life playing the mic, preamp, AD of the month game. If you operate off the second you will put together an accurate system, spend less money and enjoy yourself more.

Offline shaggy

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2005, 09:44:37 AM »
Yeowch!

I made the rec as a means of giving an overall impression of the sound and tone of the set up.  I set up a general disclaimer of the situation.  It is upto the listener to decide what he or she likes.

I think you are right in some ways.  One of the statements I made later was that the AKGs seem to make eveything sound better than it was at the venue...meaning you are not getting an accurate portrayal of the sound.  Sometimes I don't want that accuracy of the tonal characteristics of the room from what a pair of DPA402X would capture.  I think ideally, it would be ideal to have a quiver of mics and one A/D to accomdate it all.

Just trying to give john2525az  some options....I am not trying to sell him my gear!

Offline stlram

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2005, 10:24:33 AM »
By no means was I attempting to target anyone with my statement, so I'm sorry that you felt that way and I apologize.

It is just a general no-nonsense outline of how my musical and sonic values help me make equipment choices and to point out that by listening to a recording it will not tell you what the equipment is doing right, only what it may obviously be doing wrong.

However, again I will highlight that by shaping your sound pre-recording you are: 1) guessing what the performance will sound like (Even in the same venue the sound will very from performance to peformance and seat to seat) and 2) creating a non-reversible augmentation to your recording.

As for absolute accuracies, there are none and that goes for DPA's, too. Some mic's will very on their ability to accurately re-create the timbres of instruments, decay and attack of notes, as well as soundstage. Not one mic is perfect. Again, it will depend upon the situation and your musical values. At best, you can make values check list and try to find equipment that matches your’s. Mine happens to be accuracy because all others can be added afterwards; accuracy cannot!

Offline grider

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2005, 11:19:18 AM »
By no means was I attempting to target anyone with my statement, so I'm sorry that you felt that way and I apologize.

It is just a general no-nonsense outline of how my musical and sonic values help me make equipment choices and to point out that by listening to a recording it will not tell you what the equipment is doing right, only what it may obviously be doing wrong.

However, again I will highlight that by shaping your sound pre-recording you are: 1) guessing what the performance will sound like (Even in the same venue the sound will very from performance to peformance and seat to seat) and 2) creating a non-reversible augmentation to your recording.

As for absolute accuracies, there are none and that goes for DPA's, too. Some mic's will very on their ability to accurately re-create the timbres of instruments, decay and attack of notes, as well as soundstage. Not one mic is perfect. Again, it will depend upon the situation and your musical values. At best, you can make values check list and try to find equipment that matches your’s. Mine happens to be accuracy because all others can be added afterwards; accuracy cannot!


relax, dude, and chill out while you are at it, John2525 asked for guidance, tips and advice, and Shaggy and I offered him our own insight based upon our own real life experiences running different equipment with the AKG480's, nothing more and nothing less than that, we're just throwing around ideas and talking about our experiences here, please don't criticize us for helping a brother out

Offline jdawg

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2005, 11:33:35 AM »
Ahhh yes, that's the beauty of asking for opinions. Ask 10 different people and you'll get 10 different opinions. It's all subjective and yes, a point of relativity helps, too. That's exactly what I'm looking for.  Some different options that I may not have thought about. I do appreciate all the feedback thus far. That being said, I would like to steer towards something more transparent. Trying to see if Oade can transform a w-mod into a t-mod. Although that may be out of the question, not sure.

You guys rock!  And so does Ts.com. This is one fine community.  ;D   

edit: Doug just emailed me back. It's $250 for the upgrade/conversion.









Offline grider

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2005, 11:41:14 AM »
Ahhh yes, that's the beauty of asking for opinions. Ask 10 different people and you'll get 10 different opinions. It's all subjective and yes, a point of relativity helps, too. That's exactly what I'm looking for.  Some different options that I may not have thought about. I do appreciate all the feedback thus far. That being said, I would like to steer towards something more transparent. Trying to see if Oade can transform a w-mod into a t-mod. Although that may be out of the question, not sure.

You guys rock!  And so does Ts.com. This is one fine community.  ;D   

edit: Doug just emailed me back. It's $250 for the upgrade/conversion.










John I have been very pleased with my stock UA5 paired with the 480s, it adds (to my ears anway) less coloration that the MiniMe and more coloration than a V3, for recordings that turned out well in outside venue check my STS9 from 7-2-05 and for a good sounding indoor environment check out the STS9 from 2-15-05, you can stream both at archive.org, as I have said before I have run the mics into a cheap used UA5, a new MiniMe and a new V3 and the UA5 just sounds the best for all different types of taping environments and its much cheaper than the others, I imagine the mod would make it sound even better

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2005, 11:44:29 AM »
I love the Schoeps > V3 sound, personally, and don't at all find it lacking in the low end.  Everyone has different ears, of course.

A different take on this whole discussion:  have you considered changing your playback system?  Upgrading / changing my playback (modest as it is, still could use some improvement) was the single best taping-related gear change I've made.
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Offline jdawg

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2005, 12:02:19 PM »
I love the Schoeps > V3 sound, personally, and don't at all find it lacking in the low end.  Everyone has different ears, of course.

A different take on this whole discussion:  have you considered changing your playback system?  Upgrading / changing my playback (modest as it is, still could use some improvement) was the single best taping-related gear change I've made.

yeah, I guess I'm just used to the AKG sound. Don't get me wrong though, I've heard many a good Schoeps>V3 that simply rock to my ears. (probably yours!)  No complaints there. Just depends on the venue/PA, and a million other factors   ::) that come into play when making a recording.

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2005, 12:05:29 PM »
It is amazing that people will recommend that you listen to a recording to decide if you like the equipment combination. With out a point of reference this is by no way a way of determining the accuracy or inaccuracies of any equipment unless there is something wrong with the set up. There are too many uncontrolled variables to get a handle on anything, especially when you are recording P.A. systems in clubs, arenas, ect., which for the most part are compromised by the system, the soundman, venue and the position recorded from, not to mention taking into account the fact that if you weren't there you have no idea what the original sound was like. Sure, you might say it sounds good or bad but good or bad to what reference?

There are mic, pre's etc., that can tailor your sound, if you want to stray from accuracy, such as warm, punchy, zippy, etc., and if that is your cup of tea "go for it", but remember what ever you do to the signal prior to recording it can't be reversed. In my book, it always makes better sense to get the cleanest sound you can get up front and then post-recording do with it as you want. There are all kinds of plug ins that will warm up, punch, compress, expand or equalize your recordings after the fact. I know some folks think this is blasphemy, and I really never use them unless the artist is requesting it but this is what you are doing in your pre-recording when you are putting together a system that gives you that warm, extended, punchy sound and further you can't reverse it. Warm sound is usually a bit of third order harmonic distortion, punch is usually a bit of compression and frequency response is usually determined by the frequency response and polar pattern of the mics used and the mics set up and technique used. 

That being said, the type of equipment you use will be mostly determined by the type of music you record. Do you attend and record mostly P.A. based bands electric bands in large, medium or small venues? Do you record acoustic jazz, classical, bluegrass from the stage?

After you have recorded a concert, you should listen objectively. Don't think, "Do I like the sound of the recording", Do think, "Does the recording sound like the concert I just attended, dynamically, frequency extension and soundstage wise". If you operate off the first "think" you will be on a merry-go-round for the rest of your life playing the mic, preamp, AD of the month game. If you operate off the second you will put together an accurate system, spend less money and enjoy yourself more.


I'll +T you on that. Without an agreed upon reference, one recording is not nearly enough to hear to evalute the sound of mic> pre> A/D> recorder. I take into account the added comments from people who have used the same pairing of equipment as well as my own experience using the various pieces of gear being compared.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline BC

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2005, 12:25:20 PM »
It is amazing that people will recommend that you listen to a recording to decide if you like the equipment combination. With out a point of reference this is by no way a way of determining the accuracy or inaccuracies of any equipment unless there is something wrong with the set up. There are too many uncontrolled variables to get a handle on anything, especially when you are recording P.A. systems in clubs, arenas, ect., which for the most part are compromised by the system, the soundman, venue and the position recorded from, not to mention taking into account the fact that if you weren't there you have no idea what the original sound was like. Sure, you might say it sounds good or bad but good or bad to what reference?


Of course sometimes listening to a specific show is all you can do.

But I totally agree that it is tough to get an idea of the "flavor" of specific gear unless you were at the show and know what it sounded like or have comparison recordings of different gear from the same show.

+t
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Offline stlram

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Re: Pre/AD with 480's vs. cmc6/mk4's
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2005, 01:16:03 PM »
Gider replied: "relax, dude, and chill out while you are at it, John2525 asked for guidance, tips and advice, and Shaggy and I offered him our own insight based upon our own real life experiences running different equipment with the AKG480's, nothing more and nothing less than that, we're just throwing around ideas and talking about our experiences here, please don't criticize us for helping a brother out"

Gider,

I'm about as relaxed as you can get. Not a bone of tension in this body. And, by the way, I'm pretty chilled since the weather here in Ithaca has turned rainy and cold.
Again, my statement was not specific to anyone person, and may not have even applied to you, but I rather tried to point out the obvious, which to some is not so obvious. However, since you must have missed my first apology and you have interpreted this as a downing your comments I therefore send out another to you in the form of a wet kiss!

Enjoy the music!

Ray

 

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