Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: My first digital recorder... one foot in the water  (Read 5840 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mark_ivan

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
My first digital recorder... one foot in the water
« on: March 25, 2009, 12:00:40 AM »
New guy question.

Been reading through this website for the last week or so, lots of cool info here!

I am looking to make a leap forward from my trusty Sony WMD6C (cassette) and ECM999 mic.

Looking at the Busman BRC1 mic kit to augment the ECM999 stereo mic I already have.

Debating between an R44, FR2LE or Sony D50.

D50 has cool features, great battery life, ok internal mics (bright) which are handy sometimes, but no XLR balanced input or phantom power

FR2LE has some limiting features (blocky lcd vu meters, formatted CF cards, lousy int mics) but has XLR and phantom.

R44 has four inputs, FOUR! (ok this is the one I know the least about, but could see advantages to having another channel or two).

TO THE POINT...

There is (was?) a UA5 in the yard sale area.
Would a UA5 into the D50 likely be an improvement in sound over the D50 alone?
(I could always get an ART Phantom II, or any other phantom supply, for that shortcoming)                           

Any opinions on whether it would better the FR2LE?
I rented some mics, and like the sound from the FR2LE SLIGHTLY better than the D50 with ART PhII power (both were being fed by Rode NT1A mics). Both were set to 24/48.

I plan to record occasional unamplified performances of tabla and harmonium, wildlife sounds, ambient sounds, concerts, etc.. (so relative portability and battery options are high priorities, sound quality is the highest)

Any opinions greatly apprectiated!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 11:15:44 PM by mark_ivan »
BSC1/ECM999>X2>FR2LE

Offline JiB97

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • Gender: Male
    • My Archive Bookmarks
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 03:13:30 AM »
That UA-5 is a steal at that price and as you may know the UA-5 has a digital optical output with the ability to run 24-bit into the Sony D50.  I made a bunch of nice recordings with a stock UA-5 before moving on to an FR-2LE, but if you were inclined you could get that UA-5 modded by Busman and have it sound even "better."

That being said, if you are looking for simplicity at the a pretty low cost, and an all-in-one solution, the FR-2LE is a really nice option.  I have had no real problems with it in the two years I have owned it.  Plus, the battery life is ridiculous, I get around 10 hours when using a 4200mAh 7.2v battery.  You can also get this recorder modded by Busman or the Oade brothers(if bought from them).

Also you might want to check out the Marantz PMD 661 which might suit your needs.
AKG ck3/ck8 | c460b  + Naiant Actives | PFAs
Audio Technica u853r (omnis/mini-guns)
Tascam DR-70D

My Archive Links

Online Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9945
  • Gender: Male
  • I dream in beige.
    • sloppy.art.ink
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 03:30:19 AM »
Where do you record most of the time?

If you record where it's easy to get a soundboard patch the R-44 would be my choice since you can mix the board and your mics.

If you mostly record bands without SBD access then, the FR2LE is a nice little machine.

Don't know much about the Sony.

I'm running the FR2LE and I'm happy with it. Very nice to have such a small all in one box.
||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 | DPA 4022 | DPA 4080 | Nevaton MCE400 | Sennheiser Ambeo Headset |||
||| PREAMPS: DPA d:vice | Naiant Tinybox | Naiant IPA |||
||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre6 | iPod Touch 32GB |||
|||Concert History || LMA Recordings || Live YouTube |||

Offline Belexes

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5223
  • Gender: Male
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 07:49:50 AM »
I have the D50 for low-pro recording but opt for the FR2-LE for open situations with the BSC1 mics. Check out recordings on Live Music Archive made with this lineage.  For under $1,000, you can make some very impressive recordings.
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline mark_ivan

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 09:02:24 PM »
Thanks for the insights.

It's pretty confusing with all the considerations to make:

BSC1/ECM999>X2>FR2LE

Offline mark_ivan

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: My first digital recorder... Help me stimulate the economy
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 09:36:06 PM »
ooops, have to be careful with tab and enter keys    :P

The selection of gear available is incredible, but it also seems hard to make a choice.

Asking around at local music shops, many people have suggested using a laptop and USB or Firewire interface. However, I would like to have the portability of battery operated gear. Can't foresee requiring 'stealth' mode stuff, but relatively smaller packages are easier to have on hand and potentially set up.

(Not unlike cameras, I still enjoy my SLR film camera with a few lenses and flash, but it is much more of a task to lug it all around than having a digital P&S)

Having fooled around with a D50 and FR2LE, I think that, for me, I would supplement a D50 with at least a phantom power with XLR inputs (or UA5 with digimod, but not sure if that would better the D50 pre and A/D). Aside from the balanced issue and the phantom, the mini inputs just seem fragile and less robust in comparison. The internal mics on the D50 are SENSITIVE and DETAILED but not accurate to my ears at least, taking phones on and off while monitoring there is a big difference in sound. They are however head and shoulders above the FR2LE internals, which it seems are there... well... I am not sure why they are there.

Will probably use this recording setup for a variety of purposes, I am learning tabla, and want to record my lessons and my practice for self review. Plus the place that I am taking classes also puts on concerts (tabla, harmonium etc.) where people are open to my taping as well.

Generally though, I just get a kick out of recording stuff, and the more realistic the reproduction, the bigger it makes me smile when I listen to it. Whether it's live music, ambient sounds, whatever, there is something really cool about being able to 'recreate' something aurally(?).

I think my budget could stretch to about $1500 for everything, and since I am already pretty much sold on the versatility and learning potential of getting the Busman BSC1 mic kit, that leaves about $1000 for a recorder, or preamp recorder combo.

If I feel that I can get 99% there with spending less, I am certainly ok with that too.

The R44 is interesting in that I could place 3rd and 4th mics in different places and experiment with mixing them into the main stereo pair afterwards. I have read very little about the quality of the R44 sound though, and don't know if the preamps would equal or better the FR2LE, which itself I think might have marginally better sound than the D50 (could be the A/D too, or the balanced ins reducing noise, dunno).

Just need to get past this first step of picking a recorder.

Thanks for creating such a great space for people like me to learn!
BSC1/ECM999>X2>FR2LE

Offline rjp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Gender: Male
  • You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Re: My first digital recorder... Help me stimulate the economy
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 12:26:33 AM »
Asking around at local music shops, many people have suggested using a laptop and USB or Firewire interface. However, I would like to have the portability of battery operated gear. Can't foresee requiring 'stealth' mode stuff, but relatively smaller packages are easier to have on hand and potentially set up.

I've found that USB audio and laptops can be a very tricky combination. I've had nothing but grief when I've tried to use my E-MU 0404 USB (recording or playback!) with three different laptops, even though it works flawlessly on my usual desktop system. IMO, it's better to get a device that's designed to record audio.

FWIW, the 0404 is at least usable as a standalone analog preamp into my LS-10... but I'm not sure I want to waste my time trying yet again to make it get along with a laptop. :banging head:

Firewire might be a better bet, but I looked at the Presonus Firebox manual and found all sorts of caveats about incompatible chipsets. :banging head: :banging head:
Mics: AKG Perception 170, Naiant X-X, Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox
Recorders: Olympus LS-10
Interfaces: Focusrite Saffire Pro 14, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3023
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 10:44:48 PM »
I have to agree with rjp on using a laptop and USB/Firewire interface.  Thankfully (and before I decided to invest in it myself), a friend of mine was using that type of setup when I helped him record a show.  He had already been using this rig for some time, had tweaked it and there seemed to still be an occasional hiccup.  Powering the whole shebang for a long set and all the additional wires appeared to add to the headache.  This was a couple years ago so maybe things have improved, but I steered clear.

Regarding recorders, I have friends that own FR2-LE's and I've heard some wonderful recordings done with that machine.  Since no one has said too much about the R-44, I'll give it props right now.  I bought one late last year, have recorded about 30+ hours of live music with it (yeah, I know, not much) and have absolutely no regrets about getting one.  Just a stock machine right out of the box and it has 4 very good mic pre's, quality guts, very easy to use and haven't had a single problem with it.  Sound quality, IMHO, is excellent and the general consensus seems to be that, both unmodded, it's a little better quality than the FR2-LE.  If you have the time, there's a long 3-part thread extolling the virtues of the R-44: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97214.0.html

As I believe might have been stated earlier, one of the best things for you to do is search through the Live Music Archive for particular mic/recorder combinations, listen to what you find and base your decisions on what sounds good to you.  If you'd like to hear one example of the R-44 in action, I started a thread looking for LD mic help and posted links to the results of AKG 414's straight into an R-44 pre's: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,115986.0.html

Sorry for the ramble.  Good luck and happy listening!

Offline mark_ivan

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2009, 12:01:59 AM »
Thanks for the feedback, leaning towards the FR2LE but it does have some drawbacks:

- headphone amp and playback quality on the unit itself is not fantastic

- can't switch recording quality without changing or reformatting the CF card

- no digital in for things that like digital in

- can't load mp3s onto it from a computer (I think)

and for the life of me, can't figure out what the trim dials are used for given that you have separate gain contols (concentric dials), unless you have two mics of wildly different sensitivity being used at the same time.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 12:05:57 AM by mark_ivan »
BSC1/ECM999>X2>FR2LE

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1016
    • digifish music
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2009, 12:36:41 AM »
New guy question.

D50 has cool features, great battery life, ok internal mics (bright) which are handy sometimes, but no XLR balanced input or phantom power

FR2LE has some limiting features (blocky lcd vu meters, formatted CF cards, lousy int mics) but has XLR and phantom.

R44 has four inputs, FOUR! (ok this is the one I know the least about, but could see advantages to having another channel or two).

..

Any opinions greatly apprectiated!

R44 has LOUSY internal mics too :)

...

www.digifishmusic.com/public/articles/edirol_recorder_mics.htm

digifish
- What's this knob do?

Online Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9945
  • Gender: Male
  • I dream in beige.
    • sloppy.art.ink
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2009, 01:00:13 AM »
Thanks for the feedback, leaning towards the FR2LE but it does have some drawbacks:

- headphone amp and playback quality on the unit itself is not fantastic

- can't switch recording quality without changing or reformatting the CF card

- no digital in for things that like digital in

- can't load mp3s onto it from a computer (I think)

and for the life of me, can't figure out what the trim dials are used for given that you have separate gain contols (concentric dials), unless you have two mics of wildly different sensitivity being used at the same time.



1. Headphone amp...not something I look for in a recorder. If you really want you can go RCA out of the FR2LE into a better headphone amp.

2. Formatting the CF card takes about 1 minute (tops). I always run 24/48 now, and I just make sure I format all of the cards I plan on using for the night at home.

3. No digi in's suck, but if you want a small all in one box they aren't needed. If you want to run an external pre / A>D then yes they would be handy.

4. I don't understand why you'd want to load MP3's onto it. It's pretty large for a MP3 player. Not something I'd want to tote around.

5. I set the trim knobs to about 1 o'clock. Haven't touched them since. If someone else can give a more detailed explanation for them...I'd love to hear it. I rarely have to adjust my levels. Seems like I can just leave them the same way everytime and peak between -12 and -6db

All of that being said...I'd like to upgrade to a R-44 sometime in the near future. I frequently get to run on stage and mix with the SBD at one venue...also I record at Red Rocks a lot and would love to run omnis + cards (or hypers) > 4 channels.

If cost were no option...I'd get the R-44. If it is, and you don't need 4 channels often...the FR2LE is a great little box. Like I said before, I don't know shit about the D50.

I love the all in one box option. So easy to carry everything. Good luck with your search.

||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 | DPA 4022 | DPA 4080 | Nevaton MCE400 | Sennheiser Ambeo Headset |||
||| PREAMPS: DPA d:vice | Naiant Tinybox | Naiant IPA |||
||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre6 | iPod Touch 32GB |||
|||Concert History || LMA Recordings || Live YouTube |||

Offline mark_ivan

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: My first digital recorder... one foot in the water...
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2009, 10:46:12 PM »
Thanks for the info!

Making progress as I ordered the BSC1 mike kit from Busman audio today. :D

A bit of a leap for me in itself since I have never played with them, or seen them reviewed or commented on other than this site!

However, have listened online to recordings made with them, which sound pretty good, and the interchangeable caps will allow me experiment and learn about different patterns.

Now for the recorder...

Fostex issues I mentioned above.

Sony D50 has really good (but not excellent) internal mics, smaller size, astounding battery life, great headphone amp, good user menus/interface, and really good sound with an external battery box powering Rode condensers. The VU meters are fast and show peak, it has built in memory, and file transfer between PC and recorder back and forth is fast and easy.
But ultimately the external mic sound is not as open or dynamic as the Fostex, and the mini connectors durability worry me more on this unit than it ever did with my WMD6C (this just seems prettier and more delicate).

UA5 and JB3/MTII/H120 - have considered and made offers on a few of these combinations, predominantly because of the number of people here still using some variation of this combo.
Concerns for me are slower transfer speed, multiple rechargeables to manage, lack of 24bit in some cases, and frankly, a dependance on hard drives, pots, switches and other mechanical hardware that were manufactured many moons ago, and in most cases have seen lots of use.

If this is the biggest dilemma of my life though, I guess I can't complain too much. ::)


« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:49:32 PM by mark_ivan »
BSC1/ECM999>X2>FR2LE

Offline setboy

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5117
  • Gender: Male
Re: My first digital recorder... Advice being sought
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2009, 10:58:23 PM »

1. Headphone amp...not something I look for in a recorder. If you really want you can go RCA out of the FR2LE into a better headphone amp.



the headphone out is not that bad either.

dorrcoq

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: My first digital recorder... one foot in the water...
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2009, 12:42:18 AM »

Making progress as I ordered the BSC1 mike kit from Busman audio today. :D


I'm waiting for mine to arrive!  Hard to beat what he includes for the price.

Offline Panthro10

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: My first digital recorder... one foot in the water
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2009, 01:28:39 PM »
I'm hoping mine come in today. I was in the same situation these past 2 weeks - trying to decide on what to buy for my first rig. I went with the fr2le because of the price and it being my first rig. I think if I really enjoy it I may upgrade to an r-4 in a year or so.. But I didn't want to spend that much justto get started. I found an fr2le on clearance at guitar center for $350!
Busman BSC1 > v3 > r44

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.114 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF