Topic: Mixing - Too much "room"

[mblindsey]

I recorded a show last night in a venue that was very "live".  It seemed the sound was bouncing around all the hard surfaces (not "echo-y", though).  I played around with EQ a bit, and that seemed to help.  But, I was wondering if there are any tricks, methods, plugins, etc.  that you use to make these types of scenarios better.  I can post a sample tonight, as I assume that would probably make suggestions easier.

In words, it seems like I need to move the band "up front" in the mix (if that's even possible) and get rid of "the room" (if that's even possible).  I use Reaper as my DAW.

Thanks!

--Michael

[Patrick]

Not much you can do about this except EQ out some room resonances, which will certainly help but will NOT work wonders.  Move your rig closer to the sound source next time. 

The EQ cuts are going to be pretty slight, no need to cut more than 3-4db off each resonance you find.  This will clean up the soundstage a little and take away some of the reflections that were recorded.

[mblindsey]

Not much you can do about this except EQ out some room resonances, which will certainly help but will NOT work wonders.  Move your rig closer to the sound source next time. 

Thanks, I kind of figured that might be the only approach.  Unfortunately, "closer" would have been in the crowd...so, I was kind of stuck where I was.  Even so, I bet I was only about 35 feet from the stage by the SBD...just a bad room.  Another taper used some hat mounted mics, and he was in the crowd.  I'm anxious to hear his copy.

[Church-Audio]

I recorded a show last night in a venue that was very "live".  It seemed the sound was bouncing around all the hard surfaces (not "echo-y", though).  I played around with EQ a bit, and that seemed to help.  But, I was wondering if there are any tricks, methods, plugins, etc.  that you use to make these types of scenarios better.  I can post a sample tonight, as I assume that would probably make suggestions easier.

In words, it seems like I need to move the band "up front" in the mix (if that's even possible) and get rid of "the room" (if that's even possible).  I use Reaper as my DAW.

Thanks!

--Michael

When I mix in an arena I look for the longest reverb time of the arena often its around 150hz to 80hz I reduce these frequencies and it often helps. Its hard to do after the fact but that might help. Also look for the hf reflection that really does depend on the arena but generally its around 5-10k So use a narrow q and a parametric eq. Remember and I am sure you know this already but the more narrow the Q is the more noticeable your work will be, its always a fine balance between q and gain.

Chris

[Patrick]

Try some mid-side processing, if you are lucky the room sound will be different enough in your left & right mics that you can turn down the side signal and reduce room sound.

Good idea, I forgot about this as a possible solution.  However, depending on what stereo configuration you're running, MS processing could almost make it worse.  It's worth a shot, though.

[mblindsey]

However, depending on what stereo configuration you're running, MS processing could almost make it worse. 

I was running DIN, Beyer MC930's.

Thanks for all the things try.  I'll give them all a shot.

--Michael

[page]

However, depending on what stereo configuration you're running, MS processing could almost make it worse. 

I was running DIN, Beyer MC930's.

Thanks for all the things try.  I'll give them all a shot.

--Michael

There goes the MS potential. 

I agree with church and others; look for your reverb and do some surgical cuts (and do all edits under 3db, anything greater will likely have problems). Second, something to consider is adding a touch in the presence band (2-4khz in my experience). Not a lot, but a little should help bring stuff "closer". Don't juice it though, it can sound harsh if overdone (again, my experience).

[page]

There goes the MS potential. 

Why would you say that?  You don't have to start with a MS mic configuration to do MS processing.  Indeed, MS processing is done all the time on multitrack studio mixes.

Let's say you had an outdoor show with a single (obviously mono) stack, and your mic array was centered on that stack.  So long as you had a mic configuration that was symmetrical to the stack, then the stack signal should be mid, and any side signal would be wookies 

This situation isn't that simple, but it's likely a strong enough mid signal to make MS processing worth a shot.

true, in a DAW environment, you're just burning a few minutes to do the tweaks and render. I've tried it on semi-coincident pairs before and never liked the results and instead favor just EQ, but you are correct, it's technically possible.

[SmokinJoe]

Try parallel compression.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137594.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

Basically, you make a copy of the original waveform, then EQ and compress the copy, and mix it back into the original in small quantities.  It sometimes helps to bring out details that are begging to be pulled forward, like the original music.  Sometimes it doesn't.  I've tried it on a few occasions.  On at least one it helped, on others it doesn't.  It's another good tool to have in your bag of tricks.

[yltfan]

A good way to get rid of some of the "room": go back in time and get a board feed 

[Patrick]

Try parallel compression.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137594.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

Basically, you make a copy of the original waveform, then EQ and compress the copy, and mix it back into the original in small quantities.  It sometimes helps to bring out details that are begging to be pulled forward, like the original music.  Sometimes it doesn't.  I've tried it on a few occasions.  On at least one it helped, on others it doesn't.  It's another good tool to have in your bag of tricks.

I don't think this is the best option here.  I think parallel comping will make this recording much worse, actually.  Compression will not help recorded reflections, it'll just make them more "even" with the desirable sounds.  This would happen even in a parallel scheme.  Just my 2 cents

[mblindsey]

A good way to get rid of some of the "room": go back in time and get a board feed 

Trust me.  I asked, and was denied. :-(

I'll post some samples here in a couple of hours.  That will add tons of context to the original question.

Thanks again, everyone...

[page]

A good way to get rid of some of the "room": go back in time and get a board feed 

Trust me.  I asked, and was denied. :-(

I'll post some samples here in a couple of hours.  That will add tons of context to the original question.

Thanks again, everyone...

a minute long unaltered flac sample would be nice as well. 

[SmokinJoe]

Try parallel compression.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137594.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_compression

Basically, you make a copy of the original waveform, then EQ and compress the copy, and mix it back into the original in small quantities.  It sometimes helps to bring out details that are begging to be pulled forward, like the original music.  Sometimes it doesn't.  I've tried it on a few occasions.  On at least one it helped, on others it doesn't.  It's another good tool to have in your bag of tricks.

I don't think this is the best option here.  I think parallel comping will make this recording much worse, actually.  Compression will not help recorded reflections, it'll just make them more "even" with the desirable sounds.  This would happen even in a parallel scheme.  Just my 2 cents

I predict you are right in this case.  But I think it's worth spending 15 minutes trying on one track, at which point you give up on that approach and try something else.  In my case, I generally try about 3 different tricks, then decide none of them are an improvement, then say "fuck it" and seed the original.  But I think it's time well spent convincing myself that there was no easy answer.

[mblindsey]

Okay...here it is.  The rig is MC930>V3>R-44.  One of the *.mp3's (typical_results.mp3) is pretty representative of what I normally get indoors (venue dependent, of course).  Note, that this recording was made in an actual theater that was constructed for performances.  I recorded this last week.

The problem recording sample is "bad_room_results.mp3".  This room sounded like a rock concert in a high school gym, but is actually a local bar.  This was my first time recording with this rig there.  It has a high triangular pitched roof up front  that abruptly stops, lowers, and is flat towards the back of the bar.  I was under the pitched portion, but not by much.  All the surfaces are hard.  I was actually closer to the sound source in this session.  In both scenario's, I was probably 1-2 feet FOB...off center by 8-10 feet (tucked up by the SBD cages). 

Same mic config in both (DIN)...stand hight about 8.5 ft or so...

The results are here:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9fSwo6XauOqYjRiNDhmMjAtYTRkYS00ZTRlLTkzM2YtOTQ2ZWE1MzAxYzJl&hl=en

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BH2L1Y36

...and, again...not "apples to apples", but an recent outdoor recording with this rig:  http://www.archive.org/details/gpn2010-08-28

My mixing skills usually stop with an EQ plugin in Reaper.  Mostly, I'll just boost/lower one or two things.  Given the problem recording....how would you make it more pleasing?...or, more like the other two samples?

Thanks!

[mblindsey]

a minute long unaltered flac sample would be nice as well. 

arg...VBR *mp3's just to "hear it".  if a flac is needed...let me know.

[mblindsey]

Not sure what's up with google docs today....so:  http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BH2L1Y36

As I've listened to this several more times.  Maybe, it's not a big "room" sound (reverb-ish)...more "audio bounce around mud".  Hard for me to put into words....

[ashevillain]

Not much you can do about this except EQ out some room resonances,

What is a good method for determining the freq's? (other than just being able to pick them out by having a good ear)

Is there a software method for figuring this out?

[Patrick]

Not much you can do about this except EQ out some room resonances,

What is a good method for determining the freq's? (other than just being able to pick them out by having a good ear)

Is there a software method for figuring this out?

You can use a spectrum analyzer and see if there are extreme notches in the room's graph, but most of them time it's just a matter of cutting frequencies and listening/comparing.  In the end there's really not *that* much you can do about it.  It won't work miracles.

Mark, I listened to the clip and besides the "distance" issue, it's a well balanced recording.  I'm sure an audience recording in the right spot would have been fantastic.  Anyways, there's a pretty noticeable bump around 750hz, when I pulled that out, everything seemed to sound a little better.  I also tried MS processing and it worked well too, if anything just to raise the overall volume of the track.  There's also a good amount of room rumble that was killed with a HPF @ 40hz.  Nothing too crazy.

Here's a clip: http://www.sendspace.com/file/615rlf

I'm seeing/taping Built to Spill tomorrow, as well!

[mblindsey]

I listened to the clip and besides the "distance" issue, it's a well balanced recording.  I'm sure an audience recording in the right spot would have been fantastic.  Anyways, there's a pretty noticeable bump around 750hz, when I pulled that out, everything seemed to sound a little better.  I also tried MS processing and it worked well too, if anything just to raise the overall volume of the track.  There's also a good amount of room rumble that was killed with a HPF @ 40hz. 

Thank you sir for taking the time to listen.  I think you just might be right. 

It would have been really difficult to record with a stand from any other spot in this case.  Possible, yes, but solo without some blockers to help - not something I would attempt.  As I mentioned, I was by the SBD.  I bank on the fact that the sound guy mixes for the room, and his ears are behind the SBD.  So, I try to camp near him/her in the hopes that I get what they think sounds good from where they are, and when solo, to take advantage of the protection that putting a mic stand leg through the cage provides.  You are right, it does sound distant.  But, it wasn't.  That really is the room....weird but true. 

I talked with the other taper that recorded with hat mics, dead center, in the crowd.  He says his recording turned out pretty good and I believe him.  He has recorded at this venue plenty of times and knows the nuances.

thanks again...i really do think your suggestions help.

[admkrk]

I bank on the fact that the sound guy mixes for the room, and his ears are behind the SBD.

if the board is off center of in some other weird place, he will usually wander off to a better location to see how it sounds there and adjust appropriately. in other words, his body might be parked behind the desk but his ears are most likely elsewhere depending on were he is located in the "room".

[mblindsey]

to close this out.  thanks again everyone. 

if you are so inclined, this is what sounds best in my car/mp3 player (i have no "playback" worthy of anything...eq occurs on krk rokit 5's...and eq did occur):

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=538996

Update:  I surgically eq'd this via trial and error.  burn a few songs to CD and listen in different scenarios.  lather, rinse, repeat.  i learned a lot.  in this thread + google.  i encourage anyone wishing to improve a recording to experiment/practice.  even now, i think i could make it better, but you have to stop somewhere... no magic bullets for sure...but, you probably can make an "off" recording sound better to your own ears.