Topic: Best digital recorders for classical music

[markus]

Hi, I am looking for a good portable recorder for classical music concerts. I am willing to pay up to $200 or so. I have heard the Sony PCM-M10 is very good. Currently I have a Sony ICD P520, which is good for meetings and conversations, but not very useful for music.

[rastasean]

Are you considering using any external mics and pre-amp as well?

[markus]

Are you considering using any external mics and pre-amp as well?

I was actually going to ask about a good external mic as well. Do you think a pre-amp would be useful? Thanks.

[DigiGal]

Here is a link to a classical music recording I made using Shure VP88 mid-side stereo microphone.

Auburn Chamber Orchestra 10/30/2009

[markus]

Here is a link to a classical music recording I made using Shure VP88 mid-side stereo microphone.

Auburn Chamber Orchestra 10/30/2009

That sounds great, but it's way over my budget.

[earmonger]

The PCM-M10  will give you an accurate playback of your input. So will similar units from Edirol, etc., but the PCM-M10 beats them in battery life. 

Your current unit might even be decent, but I don't know if its mic jack is mono or stereo--you'd have to try it with a stereo mic. (Actually you could test with your earbuds, which will work as very low-fi mics--just plug them into the mic jack and tap separately on the right and left buds to see if you have stereo.)  You also need to see what its actual frequency range is for recording. Its built-in mic is probably made for the narrow band of speech, but it may actually record the complete human spectrum of 20-20,000 Hz.

Assuming that your current recorder has a mono mic jack or lame frequency response, the PCM-M10 is a good choice.

Its built-in mics are  actually quite good  built-ins for affordable gear. But they roll off steeply under 80 HZ--about 2-1/2 octaves below middle C--and because they are so close together, they don't give super stereo separation, though there is some. Also, there will be handling noise if you are holding the recorder, but it does have a tripod mount so you can be hands-free. Your first step could be to get the recorder and try it with the built-ins to see if it satisfies you.

External mics will be better. Sound Professionals, www.soundprofessionals.com , has a lot of good affordable mics--even their BMC-2 at about $60. (Don't get the BMC-12, which are spec'd wrong on the website, and are very bass deficient.) A lot of people here also like Church Audio mics, a little pricier but not a second mortgage.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=86896.0

Incidentally, some of the easiest affordable mics to find, by Sony (DS70P), are pretty awful. Bad fidelity, noise. Just say no.

The big problem in recording classical music is that because it can get so quiet, you need a mic that doesn't add too much noise of its own.  Lower-noise mics get expensive fast. Noise also comes from amplifying the mic signal. There's a preamp built in for the PCM-M10's mic input, and again, it's high-quality for the price, but an external pre-amp should be quieter.   

Look at your budget and don't drive yourself crazy. Yes, you can get thousand-dollar mics, but I have gotten some very listenable recordings with BMC-2 and a 9V battery box into the PCM-M10's Line-in input. (You can get the bare-bones one from Church Audio for $40--you don't need high-pass filtering for classical music) The Line-in bypasses the preamp, using the extra power from the battery box to give you enough signal. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250648957070&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

You might even be able to get away with just mic to Mic-in.

Start with the recorder alone. If that's too lo-fi, get some mics. And if that's too lo-fi, go for a battery box or preamp.

[rastasean]

Here is a link to a classical music recording I made using Shure VP88 mid-side stereo microphone.

Auburn Chamber Orchestra 10/30/2009

sounds great! can you give the specifics as to where the mic was in relation to the orchestra?

[flintstone]

Stephanie Wingfield is a professional musician (cello) and the owner of Wingfield Audio, a web-based purveyor of portable audio recorders.  Check out the web site for reviews, ratings and sample recordings of many of the pocket size recorders. 
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/

At the moment, Stephanie rates the Sony PCM-D1 as "outstanding," the Sony PCM-D50, Marantz PMD661 and Olympus LS-11 as "excellent," and the Marantz PMD620 as "very good +."
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-reviews.html

[John Willett]

Stephanie Wingfield is a professional musician (cello) and the owner of Wingfield Audio, a web-based purveyor of portable audio recorders.  Check out the web site for reviews, ratings and sample recordings of many of the pocket size recorders. 
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/

At the moment, Stephanie rates the Sony PCM-D1 as "outstanding," the Sony PCM-D50, Marantz PMD661 and Olympus LS-11 as "excellent," and the Marantz PMD620 as "very good +."
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-reviews.html

I would probably agree with this.

Personally I use the Nagra VI for classical - before this I used the original Fostex FR-2.

The FR-2 is still an excellent unit (though above your price bracket) - however, I would certainly recommend you also look at the Fostex FR-2LE.  It's a portable unit, rather than a pocketable one and the mic. pre-amps are pretty good, so you would not need to get an external one.

Although the FR-2LE is over $200, not needing to purchase an external mic. pre. means that it may be affordable for you - and it has proper XLR mic. inputs.

[DigiGal]

Here is a link to a classical music recording I made using Shure VP88 mid-side stereo microphone.

Auburn Chamber Orchestra 10/30/2009

sounds great! can you give the specifics as to where the mic was in relation to the orchestra?

Thanks...

Sure, the orchestra was elevated at the front of the church and I was centered near the back wall on an elevated platform where the churches soundboard was located.   The mic stand was actually just in front of this soundboard platform and the mic was about 10 ft high with a slight downward tilt.  I didn't actually have much choice in where to set up as the orchestra was not used to being recorded and they were afraid a mic stand up front would obstruct the audience view of the orchestra.  Ideally I would have liked to have been closer; a short distance behind and above the conductors head but it worked out fine from the back.  The church had a sloped/vaulted ceiling and was a nice sounding space, it was the first time the orchestra performed there.

Source:  Shure VP88 M-S > Marantz PMD661

[aaronji]

The Line-in bypasses the preamp, using the extra power from the battery box to give you enough signal. 

I don't think the battery box increases the amount of signal; if it did, it would be a pre!

Start with the recorder alone. If that's too lo-fi, get some mics. And if that's too lo-fi, go for a battery box or preamp.

An orchestra can be pretty loud.  A battery box or pre is valuable insurance...

[earmonger]

In practice, I treat the battery box like a weak but adequate preamp. 

I don't know the precise electronics terminology, but if you plug the mics alone into Line-in, you record silence. If you plug mics-->battery box-->Line-in you get a recording. Obviously there are people here a lot more conversant with the science of electronics, so my apologies if I wasn't correct in saying it increases the signal.

I generally record amplified music, which makes the mic send out more current, enough to record through Line-in via battery box. But I have also accidentally (forgetting to move the mic plug to Mic-in) recorded up-close speech through the battery box and it's loud enough.  I expect a classical concert would work, but I seriously don't know about whether a sustained pianissimo would register through a battery box. You might need a preamp for your Morton Feldman marathon.

Fully agreed that a battery box would be good to have if it's affordable. I was just thinking about Markus' budget.

[John Willett]

In practice, I treat the battery box like a weak but adequate preamp. 

What!

I don't know the precise electronics terminology, but if you plug the mics alone into Line-in, you record silence.

Of course, microphones should be pluged into a mic. input, not a line input!

If you plug mics-->battery box-->Line-in you get a recording. Obviously there are people here a lot more conversant with the science of electronics, so my apologies if I wasn't correct in saying it increases the signal.

It sounds like the mics need phantom power - so powering them and plugging into the line input will give you a weak low-level recording - not powering them gives nothing.

Plugging the mics into the battery box and then plugging into the mic. input will give a proper recording.

Presuming, of course, that what you call a "battery box" is, in fact, a battery powwered phantopm power supply.

[earmonger]

I'm talking about eraser-sized stealth condenser mics that use plug-in power  (not phantom) and a battery box providing 9V. As I said, I record loud music. The reason I go into Line-in is that loud music, particularly bass,  can overload the preamp in mic-in.

It's not a weak recording. Input level on my PCM-M10 at a rock concert, with the BMC-2 condensers,  is between 3 and 5 before clipping. Going into the mic jack overloads at rock concert volume.

I'm not trying to argue with a distinguished sound engineer. I'm just saying it works.

[DSatz]

John, just to explain--some people here apparently use electret capsules plus a simple FET current amplifier stage that's wired so that it can be powered by either the low-voltage "plug-in power" of a typical Sony consumer recorder's mike inputs or else by an outboard "battery box" that at least in some cases, is said to give better handling of high SPLs. I don't think that when people use "battery box" they are usually talking about standard phantom powering, though some people here still use the term "phantom powering" as if it were something generic.

Also, there's a whole flock of people here who use consumer-oriented recorders with microphones that put out the higher signal levels typical of professional microphones. Especially since some rather loud music gets recorded around here, those folks often find that if they use the (consumer) microphone inputs of their recorders there is a real risk of overload, while if they use the (consumer) aux or "line" inputs, overall it works.

Sometimes, unfortunately, that approach is also motivated by the fact that when no signal source is connected to a recorder that has both mike and line inputs, if you listen through the recorder's output as you switch between the two input settings, you will naturally hear more noise when the switch is in the "mike" position. People sometimes try to judge the mike preamps of a recorder that way, when in fact this "test" says nothing much that is relevant.

Fundamentally what I think is perhaps not being made quite clear is that in the recording scene there are two general classes of equipment--consumer and professional. Consumer gear can be of high quality while some pro gear is not; the terms aren't necessarily an indication of quality. But they usually do imply distinct connection schemes and typical signal, sensitivity and overload levels. As a result it can be somewhat perilous to intermix equipment from the two realms, but a lot of that goes on, and sometimes people get caught by the differences.

Also, the two categories are sometimes deliberately confused for marketing reasons, e.g. a consumer-grade recorder might be fitted with balanced XLR (i.e. professional-seeming) microphone/line inputs, and sold by the company's professional division at professional prices (cough: Sony TCD-D10 Pro) but inside the case, its circuitry can't handle the high signal levels that professional condenser microphones put out, since that circuitry was designed for the lower sensitivity of most consumer microphones. So there are traps to be looked out for.

--best regards

[John Willett]

John, just to explain--some people here apparently use electret capsules plus a simple FET current amplifier stage that's wired so that it can be powered by either the low-voltage "plug-in power" of a typical Sony consumer recorder's mike inputs or else by an outboard "battery box" that at least in some cases, is said to give better handling of high SPLs. I don't think that when people use "battery box" they are usually talking about standard phantom powering, though some people here still use the term "phantom powering" as if it were something generic.

Also, there's a whole flock of people here who use consumer-oriented recorders with microphones that put out the higher signal levels typical of professional microphones. Especially since some rather loud music gets recorded around here, those folks often find that if they use the (consumer) microphone inputs of their recorders there is a real risk of overload, while if they use the (consumer) aux or "line" inputs, overall it works.

Sometimes, unfortunately, that approach is also motivated by the fact that when no signal source is connected to a recorder that has both mike and line inputs, if you listen through the recorder's output as you switch between the two input settings, you will naturally hear more noise when the switch is in the "mike" position. People sometimes try to judge the mike preamps of a recorder that way, when in fact this "test" says nothing much that is relevant.

Fundamentally what I think is perhaps not being made quite clear is that in the recording scene there are two general classes of equipment--consumer and professional. Consumer gear can be of high quality while some pro gear is not; the terms aren't necessarily an indication of quality. But they usually do imply distinct connection schemes and typical signal, sensitivity and overload levels. As a result it can be somewhat perilous to intermix equipment from the two realms, but a lot of that goes on, and sometimes people get caught by the differences.

Also, the two categories are sometimes deliberately confused for marketing reasons, e.g. a consumer-grade recorder might be fitted with balanced XLR (i.e. professional-seeming) microphone/line inputs, and sold by the company's professional division at professional prices (cough: Sony TCD-D10 Pro) but inside the case, its circuitry can't handle the high signal levels that professional condenser microphones put out, since that circuitry was designed for the lower sensitivity of most consumer microphones. So there are traps to be looked out for.

--best regards

Thanks for the explanation, DSatz - now I understand where he is coming from.


By the way - I have been reading recently the "White Paper" on AES42 microphones that you translated into English - very interesting.  I am giving a paper on Digital Mics at the European AES in May - I am talking to all the mic. manufacturers to make sure I have all the bases covered.

[earmonger]

Thanks both DSatz and John.

If you look at Markus's original post, he was talking about a budget of $200, and was hoping to use built-in mics. This means consumer-grade equipment and not a fancy preamp/mic combination.

I think built-ins are inadequate for the nuances of classical music.

The combination I suggested, the PCM-10 plus little SoundPro mics or Church Audio mics and a battery box, would already be over his budget, but at least it wouldn't multiply it.  The PCM-10 doesn't have XLR inputs, just a 3.5mm jack, so the outboard stuff would be geared to that.

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks both DSatz and John.

If you look at Markus's original post, he was talking about a budget of $200, and was hoping to use built-in mics. This means consumer-grade equipment and not a fancy preamp/mic combination.

I think built-ins are inadequate for the nuances of classical music.

The combination I suggested, the PCM-10 plus little SoundPro mics or Church Audio mics and a battery box, would already be over his budget, but at least it wouldn't multiply it.  The PCM-10 doesn't have XLR inputs, just a 3.5mm jack, so the outboard stuff would be geared to that.

I agree, he DEF needs external mics and a BB/Preamp, and just a small $200.00 recorder. What about that Tascam DR-5? Its only $100.00....

[Gutbucket]

I am giving a paper on Digital Mics at the European AES in May - I am talking to all the mic. manufacturers to make sure I have all the bases covered.

If possible, I'd like to give that a read once you complete it, John.

[John Willett]

I am giving a paper on Digital Mics at the European AES in May - I am talking to all the mic. manufacturers to make sure I have all the bases covered.

If possible, I'd like to give that a read once you complete it, John.

Send me a PM at the end of May after the AES.

I have to finish it in less than a week and send the text to the AES so they can publish it (so I'm writing all hours of the day now to get it finished).  It may appear in the Journal later.

[Gutbucket]

Will do, thanks.