Topic: Zoom F8

[Gutbucket]

Sure.

Electronic stuff generally improves and becomes less costly as time progresses, digital does so orders of magnitude faster than analog, but both advance faster than advances in the mechanical stuff.

[pohaku]

^^^
Does the manual for the new 680 mkII claim "decent preamps"? 

I'm from Minnesota. If the manual was written here, it would say they were "above average" preamps.  Discussing them with your friends, you would claim that they were "not too bad."

[Gutbucket]

The preamps in my first gen 680 are decently good-looking enough for my satisfaction, if not quite as handsome as the V3 I occasionally run into it.

[connloyalist]

^^^
Does the manual for the new 680 mkII claim "decent preamps"? 

I'm from Minnesota. If the manual was written here, it would say they were "above average" preamps.  Discussing them with your friends, you would claim that they were "not too bad."

I think I like the people from Minnesota

Regards, Christine

[voltronic]

For a different angle of discussion on the F8, here's a thread on it from JWSound:
http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/25217-zoom-f8/&page=1

If you look at the most recent posts, a couple members there have actually gotten their hands on a couple of demo units and have reported their impressions.

[down2earthlandscaper]

FWIW, I've gotten some amazing pulls with my H6.
So far, I have no complaints with the preamps. If they are the same preamps that go into the F8, this might be a useful comparison.
To hear comparison between the Zoom Preamps and a much more expensive rig, compare track 3 of my BusmanBSC-1>Zoom H6 source to track 3 of the DPA 4011>DS744T source.

(I picked track 3 as a good comp track because it starts out with some quieter moments…)

ZOOM H6 Preamps: https://ia801500.us.archive.org/18/items/sci2015-01-16.bsc1.flac16/sci2015-01-16set103.mp3
SOUND DEVICES 744T Preamps: https://ia802709.us.archive.org/22/items/SCI2015-01-16.Flac16_2/SCI2015-01-16D1T03.mp3

Full show here, if interested: https://archive.org/details/sci2015-01-16.bsc1.flac16

[404 Not Found]

I too have had great success running the H6 and never had an issue with that recorder other than the shape just not working into the scheme of things for me personally when doing a field recording and am wearing a Petrol Harness with my Audio Bag and maneuvering a Boom Pole...different situation when I can run a stationary Mic Stand. 

As for the Pro's and Con's with the F8 and reading the hands on reviews on JWSoundgroups forum; the issues that most dislike about the unit do not apply for the use I, as well a few others had made note of in regards to how it will be applied for field recording.

For Audio use only, especially if you are running a Pre/Mix such as a Sonosax or SD442/SD552 in front of this recorder. Much of what has been noted in the dislikes will not apply if this is the case. 

For film use, I can see this as an entry level audio recorder with TC.  For the price and what the recorder offers, even with all the con's I see being mentioned, this still will work well for many....but not for everyone, obviously  

Makes you wonder as to what 2016 will bring to the market?  and will Zoom put out an F9 in the months following this release that will answer many of the requests/demands from users?

I will reserve any bitching about the F8 from only reading the specs and manual until I can actually do a hands on and run some recordings for my own needs. 

[hi and lo]

Reading the manual so far I really like what I see but it appears if you use XLR inputs the pre is only adjustable from +10 - 75db & using TRS it's automatically a line level input? So from my preamp I have to use TRS so I don't automatically add 10db on top of my preamp gain? I would have liked a menu option allowing me to select mic input or line level regardless of my cable connection. Am I reading that right?

I didn't realize it at first, but this will be a huge annoyance for anyone that still wants to run an external pre.

In addition to gain structure (mic: +10 - 70 vs line: -10 - 50), the maximum input level specs differ between the XLR and TRS inputs.

XLR inputs (MIC): Maximum input level  +14 dBu (at 0 dBFS, limiter ON)
TRS inputs (LINE): +34 dBu (at 0 dBFS, limiter ON)

If you want to run an external pre, the +14 dBu spec on the XLR inputs isn't very generous and will be tough to pair with preamps that have a large amount of minimum gain. The PSP-2 first comes to mind and would easily overload the XLR inputs, requiring you to use the TRS line inputs. In my opinion, that's a huge compromise as XLR connectors are without question superior for field recording. Also, who in their right mind would want to have to buy and carry more cables?

In Zoom's defense, the +14dBu viewed purely as a Mic Input spec is actually +4dBu better than a 7xx Mic input (+10 dBu). In addition, the F8's +34 dBu line input max is a whopping +8 dBu better than the 7xx (+26 dBu).

The limiter is post-ad (meh), so I'm not sure why they've bothered to note that in the specification. Maybe I'm missing something...

[stevetoney]

^ Not ideal, but couldn't that situation be solved with fairly inexpensive cables that attenuate the signal between the PSP2 and the F8 XLRs?

[hi and lo]

^Sure, inline xlr attenuators or custom-made cables would work. Probably a very good idea if you must use the XLRs, but I don't think it's a permanent solution. Consider that we're choosing to run our signal through a magically box that will (presumably) sound better than the (arguably) excellent sounding mic inputs we see on modern recorders, I don't see any reason to compromise and throw attenuators in the signal path, even though they are sonicially irrelevant considering when recording live music.

I also just noticed that phantom power is not available on the TRS inputs, which makes sense if they've intended them to be dedicated line inputs. Probably a conscience design decision rather than a technical limitation. I don't know how Zoom has implemented phantom on their other recorders, but I imagine they'd run into all sorts of customer support issues if they enabled phantom on the XLRs. It's not like this box is going to be used exclusively by skilled professionals trained to correctly interface phantom capable devices.

[stevetoney]

Interpreting specs is confusing to me, but here's what the gain specs say for the 744t:

Mic (normal gain mode): 25 to 70 dB; mic (low gain mode): 10 to 55 dB; line: -6 to 18 dB, 0.1 dB increments

Comparing that to the specs of the Zoom F8:

Inputs XLR (mic) Input Gain +10 - +75db
Inputs TRS (line) Input Gain -10 - +55db

That seems to indicate that the gain structure from the XLRs is about the same on both the 744 and the F8.  If so, I wonder...are levels too hot using a PSP2 in front of a 744t when the switches on the 744t are set to mic?

[Jonmac]

There's a review here.

http://mixeli.us/technology/zoom-f8/

[voltronic]

There's a review here.

http://mixeli.us/technology/zoom-f8/

What I took away from that review is that the professional location sound people will steer clear of this, as the comments on JWSound seem to indicate.  It seems like it could work well for what we do though, as a set-and-forget recording box since you're probably not doing much real-time mixing during concerts and are doing that more in post.

Aside from the software complaints, the things that seem to really keep it from being considered by professionals are hardware related.  Specifically, the limiters, headphone amp, and line input level.

Really unfortunate about the -10 dBV line input.  I think that answers tonedeaf's question about an external pre - you're going to need inline attenuators.  Even the much less expensive DR-70D can handle +4dBu.  This was a big miss on Zoom's part.

Maybe if the sales are slow in the target market, the price will drop and tapers who don't care about these other issues will have a cheap way to record 8 channels.

[carlbeck]

My disappointment is the fact that I have to use attenuators if I want to use XLR with my preamp or TRS cables. That would mean another set of cables in the bag in one of those chances that I have a battery or preamp failure, that's a major miss on Zoom's part IMO.

[voltronic]

My disappointment is the fact that I have to use attenuators if I want to use XLR with my preamp or TRS cables. That would mean another set of cables in the bag in one of those chances that I have a battery or preamp failure, that's a major miss on Zoom's part IMO.

Not only that, but if I read correctly you can only go line in using TRS connectors, since the plug engages line in.  For XLR it's mic level only, meaning you would need even more attenuation.  Not to belabor the comparison, but on the 70D you can set the XLR / TRS combo jacks to mic or line regardless of what connector you're using.  There's no reason Zoom couldn't have done the same.

I really don't think Zoom was concerned about users connecting external pres when they designed this.  If the stock pres are as good as they sound, it may not matter anyway but it limits your options a bit.