Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?  (Read 3999 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline divamum

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« on: March 25, 2005, 10:25:56 AM »
Hi all -

One of the reasons for considering a mic upgrade (I posted in the mics forum - by all means throw out some suggestions, cause I'm certainly thinking about shopping!) is cause i was a little disappointed that the sound was rather non-present when recorded from seats further back in the theatre (at831>sppre>jb3) 

Conversely, a friend recorded from similarly far away (different theatre, but same sort of distance) CHEB>2496>jb3 and it sounds like it's practically onstage - glorious sound.

So, what exactly IS this "proximity effect" I've heard mentioned, and how does one handle it.  Is this a result of the mics themselves and just tha the DPAs are so amazing?  Or is there more to it than that?  And are there any techniques/tricks/equipment suggestions for getting the most presence when recording from futher away?

Many thanks, as always!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 10:27:36 AM by divamum »
DPA4060
R09

hexyjones

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2005, 10:31:36 AM »
I think it's the tendency of any given microphone to produce extra bass when the source is close to the microphone diaphragm...

I always thought this was something that came into play when recording vocals...but not as relevant to our persuits...

Also - I think dynamic mics are more prone to proximity effect than condensers...

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2005, 11:23:38 AM »
The proximity effect is the tendency of ANY DIRECTIONAL microphone to have noticeable rise in low frequency energy when moved closer to the sound source (no matter what that soundsource is).

just something to keep in mind when you're taping up front or on stage.

I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline dklein

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1184
  • Gender: Male
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2005, 12:59:31 PM »
A slightly different angle...

Agreed, the proximity effect refers to the tendency of a directional mic (anything other than omni) to exhibit a boost in low frequency when close to the soundsource.  By close, we're generally talking about inches to a max of 2 ft.  Beyond that distance, there is no proximity effect.

The proximity effect is a direct result of the pressure gradient design of directional mics - most use ports (those little openings in the side of the mic).  Those things give you the directional characteristic of a mic by allowing sound to enter and hit the back of the diaphragm, cancelling out some of the sound in a predictable way i.e. in the case of a cardiod, the sound from the rear.

Because of the differing wavelengths of sound (bass is long, highs are short) and the physical dimensions of a microphone, it is possible for a close source to effectively mess with the 'good interference' that makes a  mic directional and subsequently exhibit a boost in the long wavelengths (the bass). 

Said another, less simplified way, sound not only hits the front of the diaphragm, it travels to the back.  When you're really close to the front, there's more pressure on the front than the back because the sound is reduced as it travelled thru the relatively longer path (square of the distance).  They don't meet up at the diaphragm quite the same as they would for further away sound sources, where the differences in the path length are minimal.
e.g. let's say the path to the back is an extra 1 inch.  When you're 1 inch from the mic we're talking about 1 vs. 2 (to hit the back of the diaphragm).  When you're 10 feet away, we're taking 120 vs. 121 inches

Why are only the bass frequencies boosted?  The phase errors that accentuate the effect occur on the long wavelengths (low bass)

I'm guessing the reason you like the other mics so much better is because they were omnis.  It's hard to say since the venues are different.  It certainly wasn't the other pieces of gear that made it sound good.  I don't think your recording suffered from proximity effect [edited for clarity].  It probably rolled off the bottom end (as all directional mics do).  That's generally a good thing when recording rock shows from a p.a. but maybe not so good in your situation.

What input setting were you using on your JB3?   mic-in or line-in?

btw, proximity effect is neither good nor bad.  It's just a characteristic.  Some vocal mics are designed around using it - they exhibit a sharp bass rolloff that is effective at removing extraneous noises, rumble, hum and then count on the proximity effect to bring the close-sourced voice back into a normal sound.

The other inference one can make is about the practice of using directional mics in their hats with just the front of the capsule sticking out.  By not allowing the ports on the side of the mic access to the sound, you are probably reducing the directionality and changing the frequency response of the mics.

and, also, the effect of accentuating that which is most on-axis to the mic,... the unintended soloists.

My pet project, The Hutchins Consort, sets up in a large U shape as an on-stage presence with the bass on the right, and treble on the left. I can easily manipualte the proximity effect of the 4022's, and really gain some massive bass response, but the classic stereo patterns also accentuate the left side treble players.

Moke - that sounds more like straight up directional behaviour combined with "closer to the bass = more bass in the mix".   How close are you getting?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 04:48:28 PM by dklein »
KM 184 > V2 > R4
older recording gear: UA-5  / emagic A62 / laptop / JB3 / CSB / AD20 / Sharp MT-90 / Sony MDS-JE510
Playback: Pioneer DV-578 > Lucid DA 9624 >many funny little british boxes > Linn Isobarik PMS

Offline divamum

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2005, 02:44:21 PM »
Wow - this is SO helpful and itneresting... keep it coming!

This in particular jumped out at me:

Quote
The other inference one can make is about the practice of using directional mics in their hats with just the front of the capsule sticking out.  By not allowing the ports on the side of the mic access to the sound, you are probably reducing the directionality and changing the frequency response of the mics.

My mics - in the house were either

1.  Hidden in headphones and then left on a seat (empty theatre)

or

2.  Hidden in a gear bag which audience member carried for me.

IN both cases, the vents would have been slightly masked; granted, I thought the things they were masked BY were relatively acoustically transparent (like the headphone foam pads) but perhaps not....

What am I as an acoustic user likely to be happier with? Ioriginally went with cards cause the lower-end omnis I tried were picking up too much acoustic and the voices sounded even less present; I was told tha tcards would help to focus on the stage sounds and also help make the recordings sound a little "closer". But practice isn't necessarily bearing this out.  .

This is really intersting, guys- thanks for educating a newb!
DPA4060
R09

Offline Brian

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 9392
  • Gender: Male
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2005, 02:47:28 PM »
man it seems we get this question every few months.  the last thread i had linked a great .pdf on proximity effect.  the discussion the thread was pretty good as well.

however dklein pretty much nailed it. 8)

the fig. 8 microphone has the greatest proximity effect BTW :)

i'll try to dig up that thread

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2005, 03:06:10 PM »
however dklein pretty much nailed it. 8)

thank god someone on this board knows what the hell they are talking about :P
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 9392
  • Gender: Male
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2005, 04:10:38 PM »
previous proximity effect discussion

found it and the link still works.  the .pdf on bass frequencies is a few posts up :)

Offline divamum

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2005, 08:17:15 PM »
Wow - great stuff guys.

Now, to take it back to practical application for those of us of 1 recording acoustically and from far away and 2 who are only just starting to understand the technical aspect of all this....

How can I make distant recordings sound better and more present?  What should I be thinking of changing either in terms of gear or how I get my accomplices to hold/carry it?   :D

(PS thanks for link to previous discussion. I did search the archive, but I guess since I didn't know enough abou tthe subject i didn't really know what to search FOR!)
DPA4060
R09

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2005, 08:31:49 PM »
switch to more directional caps... hyper cardioids.

look at your mic configuration, if you're mics are way off axis from the sound source your tapers will sound more "distant" as well
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline divamum

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2005, 08:36:07 PM »
switch to more directional caps... hyper cardioids.

look at your mic configuration, if you're mics are way off axis from the sound source your tapers will sound more "distant" as well

Two more questions in response to his (and please forgive - I'm keen to learn but this is a LOT of information to process when you're just a baby at this!):

1.  Since omnis allegedly exhibit less of this (as somebody else mentioned and I heard for myself on the recording made with the DPA4060s), why would hypercards make it better? And how much more difficult would it be to get those pointed accurately in a super stealth situation? I have NO control over where my taper will be sitting (that's up to box office) and most of my tapers are simply folks willing to hold the gear bag; they aren't up to much twiddling and fiddling :)

2.  Explain axis and configuration, please (like I said, this is all new to me)

Tx!
DPA4060
R09

Offline dklein

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1184
  • Gender: Male
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2005, 10:32:02 PM »
I think this is your problem
My mics - in the house were either

1.  Hidden in headphones and then left on a seat (empty theatre)
or
2.  Hidden in a gear bag which audience member carried for me.

IN both cases, the vents would have been slightly masked; granted, I thought the things they were masked BY were relatively acoustically transparent (like the headphone foam pads) but perhaps not....

It's not so much the vents - those mics need to be out in the clear.  If they were eyeballs, they should have clear sight of the sound source.  High frequencies are very sensitive to obstructions.  Try lowering your head to seat level and see how different it sounds.  Also, I don't think you answered the line-in or mic-in question.
KM 184 > V2 > R4
older recording gear: UA-5  / emagic A62 / laptop / JB3 / CSB / AD20 / Sharp MT-90 / Sony MDS-JE510
Playback: Pioneer DV-578 > Lucid DA 9624 >many funny little british boxes > Linn Isobarik PMS

Offline divamum

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: Proximity effect - what is it, and what affects it most?
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2005, 11:01:23 PM »
Also, I don't think you answered the line-in or mic-in question.

Oops... meant to and then forgot to type it.... ;)

 Line in, AT831>sp pre>jb3 :)
DPA4060
R09

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.074 seconds with 38 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF