Topic: confused...what am I doing wrong with my 480's??

[RedDawg]

I've taped a few shows over the past couple of weeks and my outcome hasn't been great to say the least.  Here's what I'm running....
481's>dogstars>PMD671.  I had the mics at 0db.

It sounds like I've clipped some parts of the shows (only when the band "hits it" all at once).  I checked the wave and there is NO clipping.  The highest I ever went was -5db.  It just seems to be distorted in those certain areas. We compared the same rig with different mics and the when we viewed the wave, the 480's had a "fatter" line than the other mic.  What causes that??  The other mic (Audio-something) did have it's wind screen on and the 480's didn't....could this have mad a difference. 
One show I was 30 ft away, the other I was about 35-40 ft away...could this affect it?

Please help...I have YMSB this Friday night and can't afford to screw that one up!!

thanks in advance.

[OFOTD]

First things first.  What do the switches on the bodies read?   

[RedDawg]

dB= 0
Hz= Lin

[OFOTD]

dB= 0
Hz= Lin

Alright so we know the mics are set properly.  How about the recorder.  Do you have a limiter on?  Is the phantom on?  What config are you placing the mics in?

We'll get there hang on!

[RedDawg]

phantom power....yes
Limiter...not sure where or what that is/does
I used ORTF both nights

[Roving Sign]

Sounds like you are brickwalling the mic preamp input...

Try running the -10 pad on the mic...anytime I've had an unruly 480 - the pad did the trick...

I believe there are some mods for PMD671 that will give you more headroom...

[shaggy]

describe 'fatter' maybe give us a screen cap (hit print screen, paste into MS Paint, save as bmp pr jpg).  Is the waveform at those points square shaped (not like a peak, but flat or rounded?)

[RedDawg]

The files are at my buddy's house right now.  I can get them tomorrow. 

As for the Limiter...I broke out the user's guide.  The Limiter is set on "Manuel".  I have the options of Manuel (I control with Rec Levels), Limited (peaks sounds are limited), and Automated Level Control (the 670 will automatically change to the input level).

Is this where I'll get my "head room"?

[Roving Sign]

You really shouldn't need the limiter - "Manual" is fine...

You will get more headroom by using the -10db pad on the mics or the -20db pad on the recorder...one or the other...

I'd start at the mic...sounds like the mic is a little hot for the 671 preamp

[Roving Sign]

describe 'fatter' maybe give us a screen cap (hit print screen, paste into MS Paint, save as bmp pr jpg).  Is the waveform at those points square shaped (not like a peak, but flat or rounded?)

He mentioned "The highest I ever went was -5db." - that gives it away as brickwalling...(as opposed to out and out distortion from setting levels too high)

[F.O.Bean]

strange for sure. i have used my 480's in the loudest sound environments i possibly could and never had this happen

both mics or just one?

[RedDawg]

running both mics at a true ORTF.

so I should start with moving the mics down to -10dB for a starting point...agree?

could someone tell me what "brickwalling" is??? 

[sygdwm]

first, is this unit stock? secondly, are you using the -20db pad on the recorder? stock or modded ALWAYS run the pad on the 671 for loud shows.

[Church-Audio]

Sounds like you are brickwalling the mic preamp input...

Try running the -10 pad on the mic...anytime I've had an unruly 480 - the pad did the trick...

I believe there are some mods for PMD671 that will give you more headroom...

I was just going to say with AKG I always run the pad. If I don't know how loud the source is. AKG mics have very hot preamps built into them and they will overload really easy. Its not the capsule that's overloading its the mic body. So the pad will help. I hate to use it all the time because I find it does something to the top end any pad on any condenser mic Not just AKG. I don't think its a windscreen issue.

Chris Church

[RedDawg]

Sounds like you are brickwalling the mic preamp input...

Try running the -10 pad on the mic...anytime I've had an unruly 480 - the pad did the trick...

I believe there are some mods for PMD671 that will give you more headroom...

I was just going to say with AKG I always run the pad. If I don't know how loud the source is. AKG mics have very hot preamps built into them and they will overload really easy. Its not the capsule that's overloading its the mic body. So the pad will help. I hate to use it all the time because I find it does something to the top end any pad on any condenser mic Not just AKG. I don't think its a windscreen issue.

Chris Church

So am I better to use the -10 on 480's or should I use the -20 on the 671?

Side note, I don't have any MOD's on this model. I will be getting the Oade upgrade on a new box if I decide to stick with the Marantz.

[Church-Audio]

Sounds like you are brickwalling the mic preamp input...

Try running the -10 pad on the mic...anytime I've had an unruly 480 - the pad did the trick...

I believe there are some mods for PMD671 that will give you more headroom...

I was just going to say with AKG I always run the pad. If I don't know how loud the source is. AKG mics have very hot preamps built into them and they will overload really easy. Its not the capsule that's overloading its the mic body. So the pad will help. I hate to use it all the time because I find it does something to the top end any pad on any condenser mic Not just AKG. I don't think its a windscreen issue.

Chris Church

So am I better to use the -10 on 480's or should I use the -20 on the 671?

Side note, I don't have any MOD's on this model. I will be getting the Oade upgrade on a new box if I decide to stick with the Marantz.

I would pad the mic first. If I use an AKG mic for a vocal the pad is going on never mind recording a concert. I would for sure have the pad on if you know its going to be a loud show. Because the pad on your recorder will not help the mic body from overloading. And that's where the brick walling starts on most AKG mics. Like your 400 series mics. Just remember if its not going to be a loud show you don't need the pad. But if your unsure better safe then sorry.

[Roving Sign]

Sounds like you are brickwalling the mic preamp input...

Try running the -10 pad on the mic...anytime I've had an unruly 480 - the pad did the trick...

I believe there are some mods for PMD671 that will give you more headroom...

I was just going to say with AKG I always run the pad. If I don't know how loud the source is. AKG mics have very hot preamps built into them and they will overload really easy. Its not the capsule that's overloading its the mic body. So the pad will help. I hate to use it all the time because I find it does something to the top end any pad on any condenser mic Not just AKG. I don't think its a windscreen issue.

Chris Church

So am I better to use the -10 on 480's or should I use the -20 on the 671?

Side note, I don't have any MOD's on this model. I will be getting the Oade upgrade on a new box if I decide to stick with the Marantz.

Using the -20 on the recorder is good generic advice for that model...but since the problem you descibe is mild...and in your specific case you have a -10 pad available...(not all mics have this)...I might start there...

Chris - I think in his case - it's more likely the recorders inputs - I think this is known weakness in this model...however your point stands...We need peak lights on the mics!

[RedDawg]

I'll try the -10 on the mics this Friday night....

You guys rock.  I thank you all for helping this newbie out.

[sygdwm]

So am I better to use the -10 on 480's or should I use the -20 on the 671?

run the pad on the deck always. also, run very conservative with a stock unit. the pre-amps overload easily. get the thing modded, and you will have a smoking rig that takes no time to setup/teardown.

edit: i have never run the pad on my akg's.

[eric.B]

So am I better to use the -10 on 480's or should I use the -20 on the 671?

run the pad on the deck always. also, run very conservative with a stock unit. the pre-amps overload easily. get the thing modded, and you will have a smoking rig that takes no time to setup/teardown.

edit: i have never run the pad on my akg's.

I agree with this..   the preamps on your 671 are overloading.  Use the pad on the 671 until you can either a) mod the 671 b) run an external pre    or c) stop going to loud rock n roll shows..  hehe

seriously..  I tried my akg568's straight into my dap1 with the same results you got when in a "loud" environment..   I ran the pad on the deck and it eliminated the problem, however I wasnt crazy about the overall sound being produced.. hence the external preamp.

[Church-Audio]

Sounds like you are brickwalling the mic preamp input...

Try running the -10 pad on the mic...anytime I've had an unruly 480 - the pad did the trick...

I believe there are some mods for PMD671 that will give you more headroom...

I was just going to say with AKG I always run the pad. If I don't know how loud the source is. AKG mics have very hot preamps built into them and they will overload really easy. Its not the capsule that's overloading its the mic body. So the pad will help. I hate to use it all the time because I find it does something to the top end any pad on any condenser mic Not just AKG. I don't think its a windscreen issue.

Chris Church

So am I better to use the -10 on 480's or should I use the -20 on the 671?

Side note, I don't have any MOD's on this model. I will be getting the Oade upgrade on a new box if I decide to stick with the Marantz.

Using the -20 on the recorder is good generic advice for that model...but since the problem you descibe is mild...and in your specific case you have a -10 pad available...(not all mics have this)...I might start there...

Chris - I think in his case - it's more likely the recorders inputs - I think this is known weakness in this model...however your point stands...We need peak lights on the mics!

I see I am not very familiar with the recorder I have in the past overloaded AKG mics and had to use the mic pad. I just assumed that was the problem but you know what they say about assuming. I should check out this recorder what is the model?

Ps clip lights on mics would be cool, it would be like an extra light show.

[bluegrass_brad]

Your recorder is brickwalling.  Those 480's can take alot of db without overloading.

[sygdwm]

I should check out this recorder what is the model?

marantz pmd-671.

[Church-Audio]

I should check out this recorder what is the model?

marantz pmd-671.

Oh I see. I guess the mic inputs dont have alot of headroom.

[OFOTD]

So am I better to use the -10 on 480's or should I use the -20 on the 671?

run the pad on the deck always. also, run very conservative with a stock unit. the pre-amps overload easily. get the thing modded, and you will have a smoking rig that takes no time to setup/teardown.

edit: i have never run the pad on my akg's.

Agreed 100% 

[leehookem]

yeah, don't worry about the pad on the mics.  just use the one on the deck.  I ran into the same thing the first show I recorded with the rig.  once I hit the -20 pad on the 671, I never encountered the problem again.

[RedDawg]

Thanks again guys.  I'm going to do some playing with the deck tonight with my buddy's band. Then it's off to see/record Yonder Mountain tomorrow. 

YOU FOLKS RAWK>>>>>

[thepassionofyonder]

when i ran my 480s directly into my P1, i had the same problem.
i started with just -10 on the bodies,it helped. but it was still pretty hot, so...
then i combined it with the -20 on the P1.
using them both solved the problem completely.
just my experience.
~justin

[IowaClint]

I would run the pad on the deck not the mics.  This is what I do for my HD-P2 and it sound amazing. 
~Clint

[BayTaynt3d]

Man, I've never had the 480s brick themselves, so that must have been some seriously loud shit Chris for you to overload the 480s. This is surely the recorder bricking.

FWIW, one thing I love about using the 480s with my R4 is the fact that the bodies not only have a 10db pad, but they also have a +7 db setting too. Combine that with the sensative R4 mic-ins, and you've got a lot of combos to work with:

1. Crazy Loud = -10pad running line-in R4
2. Loud = No pad running line-in R4
3. Somewhat Loud = +7 running line-in R4
4. Moderate = -10 pad running mic-in R4
5. Quiet = No pad running mic-in R4
6. Acoustic/Very Quiet = +7 running line-in R4