Topic: Re-centering stereo image of a recording

[Massive Dynamic]

     After listening to several of my recent recordings, I have noticed a distinct "un-centered" image where the sound seems to be coming from mostly one speaker. I have listened to several commercial recordings, several recordings made previously with different equipment, and recordings made with identical gear during the same festival at different stages, and I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with my playback or my ears. Interestingly, it seems to only be noticeable on recordings made at one of the music stages at that festival. Another curious thing is that playback levels on my iRiver or HHB830 seem pretty even between left and right channels. I'm actually pretty anal about getting levels even during recording, so I am not sure why the image is so off-center. Here is one 44MB track to download for the curious.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nymrmb

My second challenge is to fix these recordings. If the levels are really level, do I just bump up the level of one channel until it sounds right? What do I do if I have any overs that would be clipped further by increasing the gain in that channel? On my Mac, I mainly use Audacity, though I have ProTools7 if anyone has pointers. Thanks.

[Roving Sign]

I'd try the Audacity L/R Pan control first...

I think sometimes the differing frequency content of each channel creates a different perceived amplitudes - even thought the meters might be reacting equally...

[John Kary]

Yeah, the meters are riding really even, especially on the parts with just the kick.  It sounds like things are a tiny bit to the right, but it might be from frequency-related issues, and not levels.  Nice audience recording, though, by the way.  The low-end is right on.

[shaggy]

I think what is captured out of a PA stack can vary depending on position.  DFC for some is not really DFC, but +/- 1 to 2 meters.  That can influence the perceived center.  Try it at a show sometime. Move around near the center....

For recentering an image: WAVES S1-Imager VST Plug-In for Pro Tools, works well for me the few instances I have used it (in Wavelab).

[John Kary]

I was bored and wanted to work with some new plugins, so I mastered this track a bit.  Figured the taper might be interested in the results.  Cheers!
http://www.sendspace.com/file/uyeda4

[Massive Dynamic]

Thanks for listening; I also thought the sound was coming from the right.

As for DFC, I didn't pace off the stage to see where true center was; maybe next time (or did you mean that center should be determined by ear instead of measurement?).

I really don't like post-processing (don't have time to learn it properly!), but I might try the Audacity route. The Waves stuff is a bit over my budget.

teez

[momule]

I used the waves S1 & also and a little PSP vintage warmer to help fatten up the overall sound.

My version

[Craig T]

waves S1 is a nice tool for stereo image manipulation.

[TNJazz]

S1 is only $200.  Or you could spring for the Power Pack bundle which is 20% off this month and only $400 (gets you S1 plus quite a few other useful plugs).

All you folks here using S1 - did you buy it separate or as part of a bundle?  I'm trying to decide on the best bundle for myself at the moment...

[nic]

S1 is only $200.  Or you could spring for the Power Pack bundle which is 20% off this month and only $400 (gets you S1 plus quite a few other useful plugs).

All you folks here using S1 - did you buy it separate or as part of a bundle?  I'm trying to decide on the best bundle for myself at the moment...

when I had it, I had the Gold bundle.

[boojum]

On the topic of good sound editors/DAW's, I am very pleased with Samplitude 9 SE at US$49.99.  Downloaded from the Magix site.  The European site is Eur49.99, a disadvantage for us here in the US.

The nice thing about SAM9 SE is that you can go to a higher priced more enabled version and juast be extending your knowledge base.  Unfortunately the money you put out for the SE version does not count towards a higher priced upgrade.

Cheers

[John Kary]

waves S1 is a nice tool for stereo image manipulation.

Your S1 tweaking went a bit far, I think.  The levels ride in the left-channel quite a few db over the right.

Mine from above was (don't laugh):: Nuendo Pan to left a bit > Steinberg Magneto (add some punch/distortion) > CrysonicQ (slight compression on low-end) > Steinberg stereoexpander > Waves C4 (multi-band compressor to tame the dynamic low-end) > Waves L3-LL MultiMaximizer (compression/maximizer to balance low-end and bring out upper highs) > Kjaerhus MPL-1 Pro (mastering limiter)

[momule]

I think your replying to the wrong person in your post.  Craig Didn't post a sample. 
I assume that was pointed at me.

I understand they are not even (visually) but do they sound proportionate ?

[John Kary]

I think your replying to the wrong person in your post.  Craig Didn't post a sample. 
I assume that was pointed at me.

I understand they are not even (visually) but do they sound proportionate ?

Oops you're right.  The vocals sound more central, but the kick sounds a bit off to the left.  I noticed that before I looked at the stereo-meter to confirm it   There's something strange going on in this recording.  The low-end seems centered in the original, but the rest leans a bit right.

This might have happened if the house's low-end subs were not at the same position as their house speakers, or if there were a lot of reflection of the high-end from the right side.  Either way, I'm going to bet it was the venue's speaker system at fault, and not some piece of gear or your direct recording position.

On the topic of correcting it, I don't know a plugin that can break audio down by frequency AND pan it left/right.  Manually you could transform it similar to how a crossover works--by splitting it into different signals based on frequency.  This means using an EQ to roll-off all but the lows, mids and highs, then putting each of those sources on a fader and panning them around to correct the stereo image.  I would be curious if a plugin already exists that lets you pan within the plugin.
[/quote]

[Chuck]

I have found that small discrepencies in a microphones frequency responce can make the image wander in a recording. When recording, the levels will look even, but on playback, the image can either wander or stay closer to one speaker. I recently went through a matching process with CK6x capsules and found ones that match well enough that I can live with them.

[momule]

Oops you're right.  The vocals sound more central, but the kick sounds a bit off to the left.  There's something strange going on in this recording.  The low-end seems centered in the recording, but the rest felt a bit right.

This might have happend if the house's low-end subs were not at the same position as their house speakers, or if there was a lot of reflection of the high-end from the right side.  Either way, I'm going to bet it was the venue's speaker system at fault, and not some piece of gear.

On the topic of correcting it, I don't know a plugin that can break audio down by frequency and then pan it left/right.  Manually you could transform it similar to how a crossover works--by splitting it into different signals based on frequency.  This means using an EQ to roll-off all but the lows, mids and highs, each into a separate file/fader.  Then pan the different frequencies around to correct the stereo image.

I'm pretty sure sequoia has some built in "image tools" which would in a round about way allow you to accomplish just that. I'm fairly sure that one can eq a channel at a time and then pan from there which would basically get the same results if I understand you correctly.

On a side note. 
a local engineer told me long ago.  "you cant polish a turd" I took it as sometimes you just gotta let it go and not try to hear all the shit you cant fix and focus on a things you can.  keep it from being muddy, dont over compress it and make it fatiguing to the ear.  .... ect

[Massive Dynamic]

Your S1 tweaking went a bit far, I think.

A difference of opinion on mastering is another reason I really don't like post. Anyone ever see this site before? http://www.dontcrack.com/ Maybe this would work?

Here's source info on the recording: SP LSD2 (cards, XY@135º) > T+mod UA-5 > iRiver H120 > iMac G5 > Audacity (tracking)
I remember DSatz commenting that cards XY90º weren't ideal. Of course he also mentioned "angular distortion" at angles >90º and basically said stereo mics weren't good for much besides M/S and Blumlein. I'm not sure the angle is responsible for these sonic anomalies since my XY90º and Blumlein recordings at that stage all have this problem. Anyone else run cards XY > 90º and have good results?

I know the LSD2 is supposed to be cake to run, but could aiming the mic slightly to the left or right by accident account for this? Would adding gain to level out each channel not compensate?

Btw, if you liked the music, The Myriad just won an MTV2 competition.

[John Kary]

I found a plugin that functions as a multi-band compressor and allows for panning of frequency ranges: Voxengo Soniformer2

I believe they offer a demo download if anybody wants to play.

[mblindsey]

I just stumbled across this thread, as I was wondering the same thing and asked a similar question in another forum.  I was directed to a plugin in Reaper.  I haven't tried it yet, but this may be a low cost option for you.  If anyone has any experience, please let us know if it worked for you....otherwise, I'll update this at some point....

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16518