Topic: Boosting levels when mastering adds too much punch

[Keyd]

My biggest problem lately is this:

When recording very dynamic music I am conservative with the levels and the peaks only reach about -6 to -3dB so the many quiet parts of the music seems too soft when I play it back. When I raise the levels after they are I recorded this low it seems way too loud during the louder parts and has a punch that almost knocks your head off. Also, many times it is the crowd that is the loudest so it's hard not to have the music at these lower levels. It's some work to lower the crowd independantly in mastering but that isn't any problem compared to the overwhelming punch that happens when I raise the levels.

I am looking for a way to make the recordings louder but smoother and not so harsh with all that punch. I could try to be more aggressive with setting my levels when recording but I hate distortion and we all know about fixing that. I hope there is a way to control this either when recording or in post.

I have tried a few things but have been unsucessful. Suggestions really appreciated.

[Roving Sign]

What gear and software are you using?

[Brian Skalinder]

Your levels are fine, this is something you should address in post with either compression and/or a volume envelope.  Basically, you'll reduce your dynamic range - make the loud parts softer and the softer parts louder.  It's easy to over do, so experiment a lot to find what works for you.

Search the Computer Recording forum for keywords:  compression volume envelope.

[easy jim]

^ what he said

[Tim]

Your levels are fine, this is something you should address in post with either compression and/or a volume envelope.  Basically, you'll reduce your dynamic range - make the loud parts softer and the softer parts louder.  It's easy to over do, so experiment a lot to find what works for you.

Search the Computer Recording forum for keywords:  compression volume envelope.

yeppers

[terrapinj]

Waves makes some nice Plugins for this

i use L2 with all my recordings - they have since replaced that with the L3 Ultramaximizer

[Keyd]

What gear and software are you using?

Church cards or omni's. Church 9100 Preamp. Either H4 or R-09. Protools.

Your levels are fine, this is something you should address in post with either compression and/or a volume envelope.  Basically, you'll reduce your dynamic range - make the loud parts softer and the softer parts louder.  It's easy to over do, so experiment a lot to find what works for you.

Search the Computer Recording forum for keywords:  compression volume envelope.

When I use compression the bass frequencies seem to be boosted too much in relation to the other sounds. Also, the kick drum sounds really artificial to me. I guess I should play around more with the settings. Maybe I should experiment more with a limiter and raise the overall levels because I don't want that sound I get in the lows when using the compressor.

Waves makes some nice Plugins for this

i use L2 with all my recordings - they have since replaced that with the L3 Ultramaximizer

I may try that waves plugin. I'm a little confused because I didn't see what software it plugs in to. Is it just something you use independantly? Maybe I missed it.

I don't have the gear you have but I have always liked your recordings. I have got some good sounds lately due to mic placement and great rooms etc.  If I could just tone down the harshness they would sound really great. Thanks Mikey and Brian for the input.

I didn't mention as many details in the original post because I am interested in any ideas. Now that I have given more details maybe I can get some more ideas. Thanks everyone.

[easy jim]

When I use compression the bass frequencies seem to be boosted too much in relation to the other sounds. Also, the kick drum sounds really artificial to me. I guess I should play around more with the settings. Maybe I should experiment more with a limiter and raise the overall levels because I don't want that sound I get in the lows when using the compressor.

In a live setting, the bass frequencies are frequently at higher spl's than the rest of the frequency range.  Thus, adding compression will tend to 'fatten' the low end in the mix a bit with a typical live recording.  To address this, I typically add a high-pass filter somwhere between 40-80hz with a ParaEQ plug-in - post-compression - to roll off the excess of the low-low end. 

Aside from that, there ought to also be a multi-band compressor plug-in in Protools which you could use to compress the dynamics of specific frequency ranges without affecting others.

[terrapinj]

I may try that waves plugin. I'm a little confused because I didn't see what software it plugs in to. Is it just something you use independantly? Maybe I missed it.

I don't have the gear you have but I have always liked your recordings. I have got some good sounds lately due to mic placement and great rooms etc.  If I could just tone down the harshness they would sound really great. Thanks Mikey and Brian for the input.

I didn't mention as many details in the original post because I am interested in any ideas. Now that I have given more details maybe I can get some more ideas. Thanks everyone.

the waves plugin is a VST and should work with just about all of the common audio editing programs - it should work with protools

[Brian Skalinder]

The only problem with the Waves plugin:  I've typically seen it available as part of a bundle of plugins, and it's expensive $$$$$.

[terrapinj]

The only problem with the Waves plugin:  I've typically seen it available as part of a bundle of plugins, and it's expensive $$$$$.

holy shit you aren't kidding

L3 - Native $600
L3 - Bundle $1200

 

[Keyd]

When I use compression the bass frequencies seem to be boosted too much in relation to the other sounds. Also, the kick drum sounds really artificial to me. I guess I should play around more with the settings. Maybe I should experiment more with a limiter and raise the overall levels because I don't want that sound I get in the lows when using the compressor.

In a live setting, the bass frequencies are frequently at higher spl's than the rest of the frequency range.  Thus, adding compression will tend to 'fatten' the low end in the mix a bit with a typical live recording.  To address this, I typically add a high-pass filter somwhere between 40-80hz with a ParaEQ plug-in - post-compression - to roll off the excess of the low-low end. 

Aside from that, there ought to also be a multi-band compressor plug-in in Protools which you could use to compress the dynamics of specific frequency ranges without affecting others.

I tried different settings with the compressor and now I don't like the sound of the hi-hats. 

I think lately my ears are even more sensitive than usual.

I will look for a multi-band compressor, try some more eq, and I will do some more research on the waves plugins.

It's frustrating when it all sounds good except the louder sounds have too much punch.

I like the preamp but maybe I will try more gain on the recorder and less from the pre and see how that sounds.
I would imagine worse but I may give it a try.

First, I think I will get a new cable to go from the preamp to the recorder.
I am just using one I got at radio shack that I think is intended for ipods.
I won't go overboard on spending a whole lot of $ on this, but it can't hurt the situation.

Thanks for the inpu+T's. I'm still open to any other ideas if anyone else has any.

[Kevin]

A more tedious process is using automation when your recording starts to get too loud.  Smoothly add it to reduce volume when you think its too loud and then bring it back up when it gets softer.  Although you have to be careful how you use it so you don't take your recording on a roller coaster ride. 

[DSatz]

Just in case--Keyd, are you aware that when you play back any music recording and then play it back again louder, the bass will seem to increase? That's a natural result of the way human hearing works. The bass-vs.-midrange balance is always a function of the loudness levels at which we're listening.

That's why there's a "loudness" button on hifi amplifiers and receivers--because the converse is also true; when you listen at lower loudness levels than the sound was recorded at originally, it will seem to lack bass. (It doesn't really, in terms of physical acoustics, but to our ears it does.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contours is a nice article on the subject (today at least).

A lot of people who listen to rock music like speakers with extra bass and mid-bass response because it serves as a natural "loudness" button--it lets them get some of the sense of balance which they would hear at a loud rock concert, without having to blast the music to get it.

Of course that lack of blast is a serious deficiency in itself--but when you live around other human beings, you sometimes have to put up with a lot.

--best regards

[Keyd]

A more tedious process is using automation when your recording starts to get too loud.  Smoothly add it to reduce volume when you think its too loud and then bring it back up when it gets softer.  Although you have to be careful how you use it so you don't take your recording on a roller coaster ride. 

I actually thought about this but the problem is I don't feel like doing it for the many transfers I am in the middle of. I know what you mean about the roller coaster ride.   

Just in case--Keyd, are you aware that when you play back any music recording and then play it back again louder, the bass will seem to increase? That's a natural result of the way human hearing works. The bass-vs.-midrange balance is always a function of the loudness levels at which we're listening.

That's why there's a "loudness" button on hifi amplifiers and receivers--because the converse is also true; when you listen at lower loudness levels than the sound was recorded at originally, it will seem to lack bass. (It doesn't really, in terms of physical acoustics, but to our ears it does.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contours is a nice article on the subject (today at least).

A lot of people who listen to rock music like speakers with extra bass and mid-bass response because it serves as a natural "loudness" button--it lets them get some of the sense of balance which they would hear at a loud rock concert, without having to blast the music to get it.

Of course that lack of blast is a serious deficiency in itself--but when you live around other human beings, you sometimes have to put up with a lot.

--best regards

That is interesting. Thanks I will read that.

I have problems with the snare and cymbals and not the bass. I actually think it is as loud at the show but I think it bothers me when I'm not at the show and listening on a stereo. That's a theroy I am working on. It's interesting that I have almost the opposite interpretation. I've heard when you get older you lose hearing in the higher frequencies but I seem to still hear an extended range and I believe I am now more sensitive to the higher frequencies.

I do notice a little bit when at lower levels the bass seems lower, especially on studio recordings but I know when I pay more attention that it isn't.

I'm still trying to think of ways to limit the brash loud sounds both in the recording process and in post.

[itook2much]

Maybe roll off the highs?  If they're what you think are too harsh.

Maybe try normalizing using a limiter, to help with the crowd vs. music ratio (tho of course it'll decrease the dynamic range like compression).

I dunno, just throwing out ideas.

[Keyd]

Maybe roll off the highs?  If they're what you think are too harsh.

Maybe try normalizing using a limiter, to help with the crowd vs. music ratio (tho of course it'll decrease the dynamic range like compression).

I dunno, just throwing out ideas.

That's actually what I was just doing. I'm also trying to roll off the snare with the eq. I usually don't eq this heavily but it seems the punch is still there, unfortunately.

I am still researching the plugins. I heard some more good things about the waves today.

[Kevin]

Waves makes great plug-ins, but as stated above they are a little pricey.  What you can do, however, is download a trial version of the Waves plug-ins.  Make an account of their site, sign in, find the plug-in you want to use and download a trial version of it.  I did this recently, and it did what I needed it to do.  Loaded it up in Pro Tools, fixed my file and bounced the track out.

[Tim]

what mic configuration and what was the rig?

[Keyd]

Waves makes great plug-ins, but as stated above they are a little pricey.  What you can do, however, is download a trial version of the Waves plug-ins.  Make an account of their site, sign in, find the plug-in you want to use and download a trial version of it.  I did this recently, and it did what I needed it to do.  Loaded it up in Pro Tools, fixed my file and bounced the track out.

I have been thinking about doing that. +Thanks for the prodding. I will try them out.

what mic configuration and what was the rig?

Church stc-11's with either cards (usually DIN) or omni's (usually A-B) > Church CA-9100 > R-09 or H4

I haven't tried aiming the mics up like I see some people doing. I point them at the speakers, usually the outside. I think I may try pointing the omni's up next time I'm at a loud show, or if I am relatively close to the drummer, or if I am at a show with a loud drummer.

Is this why they do this? I know they must prefer the sound but I am wondering if it limits the crack of the snare and the smash of the crashes and cymbals.

The shows I am working on sound really great except for that one issue. Maybe I'm a little too picky with my modest equipment but I think I can fix this with hope that I can also retain the quality that i have been getting.

[BC]

Waves makes some nice Plugins for this

i use L2 with all my recordings - they have since replaced that with the L3 Ultramaximizer

second this, I think the waves ultramaximizer works very well.

[TNJazz]

Waves makes some nice Plugins for this

i use L2 with all my recordings - they have since replaced that with the L3 Ultramaximizer

second this, I think the waves ultramaximizer works very well.

Yes, but it's cost prohibitive (unless you just need it once, then you can download the 14 day Waves trial...or of course if you're using one of those "grey market" versions... )

Waves makes great plug-ins, but as stated above they are a little pricey.  What you can do, however, is download a trial version of the Waves plug-ins.  Make an account of their site, sign in, find the plug-in you want to use and download a trial version of it.  I did this recently, and it did what I needed it to do.  Loaded it up in Pro Tools, fixed my file and bounced the track out.

Kevin, if you're working in ProTools you may also want to try Stephen Massey's L2007 Mastering Limiter (http://www.masseyplugins.com)  It's TDM and RTAS, and is unlimited time trial version (you just can't save the settings when you close PT).  If you like it, the cost is only $89.  A lot of folks I know have ditched L2 and L3 in favor of Massey.  It sounds quite outstanding.

[Kevin]

Ill give it a try.  Do they have a trial version?

[TNJazz]

Ill give it a try.  Do they have a trial version?

Yes.  It's an unlimited trial - fully functional except you can't save the settings when you close PT.  So you have to reset it each time.  Not exactly a big deal, but it's WELL worth the $89 investment (as are ALL his other plugins!)

[Church-Audio]

My biggest problem lately is this:

When recording very dynamic music I am conservative with the levels and the peaks only reach about -6 to -3dB so the many quiet parts of the music seems too soft when I play it back. When I raise the levels after they are I recorded this low it seems way too loud during the louder parts and has a punch that almost knocks your head off. Also, many times it is the crowd that is the loudest so it's hard not to have the music at these lower levels. It's some work to lower the crowd independantly in mastering but that isn't any problem compared to the overwhelming punch that happens when I raise the levels.

I am looking for a way to make the recordings louder but smoother and not so harsh with all that punch. I could try to be more aggressive with setting my levels when recording but I hate distortion and we all know about fixing that. I hope there is a way to control this either when recording or in post.

I have tried a few things but have been unsucessful. Suggestions really appreciated.

If you want to send me a bit of the file in question so I can see what I can do on my end. If I find a good solution I will let you know what I did..

Chris
Send me a pm if you dont have my email address.

[Keyd]

Kevin, if you're working in ProTools you may also want to try Stephen Massey's L2007 Mastering Limiter (http://www.masseyplugins.com)  It's TDM and RTAS, and is unlimited time trial version (you just can't save the settings when you close PT).  If you like it, the cost is only $89.  A lot of folks I know have ditched L2 and L3 in favor of Massey.  It sounds quite outstanding.

Hey, +Thanks a lot. I will check out this L2007 limiter. It sounds like it might be what I am looking for.

My biggest problem lately is this:

When recording very dynamic music I am conservative with the levels and the peaks only reach about -6 to -3dB so the many quiet parts of the music seems too soft when I play it back. When I raise the levels after they are I recorded this low it seems way too loud during the louder parts and has a punch that almost knocks your head off. Also, many times it is the crowd that is the loudest so it's hard not to have the music at these lower levels. It's some work to lower the crowd independantly in mastering but that isn't any problem compared to the overwhelming punch that happens when I raise the levels.

I am looking for a way to make the recordings louder but smoother and not so harsh with all that punch. I could try to be more aggressive with setting my levels when recording but I hate distortion and we all know about fixing that. I hope there is a way to control this either when recording or in post.

I have tried a few things but have been unsucessful. Suggestions really appreciated.

If you want to send me a bit of the file in question so I can see what I can do on my end. If I find a good solution I will let you know what I did..

Chris
Send me a pm if you dont have my email address.

I would like to take you up on that. I am getting ready to go out of town for the weekend. If I don't get it to you in the next few hours, I will send it to you next week. +Thanks once again.