Author Topic: ?'s about running Omni's (Read 13331 times)

BCostigan · « **on:** May 25, 2003, 10:05:23 PM »

Now (thanks to jesse) I have a full rig to run I'm thinking about taping the IT phish show. I'll have a pair of cp-2 caps (omni) to run on the Nak 300s and would like to try split omni up there.

Any ideas or suggestions on doing this?? Height? Spacing?

Also...I know they are "omnidirectional" but is it best to go with an ATS approach or aim them at the sky?? What would eliminate the crowd the most??

I've got questions...the board's got answers.

jpschust · « **Reply #1 on:** May 26, 2003, 10:17:54 AM »

you wanna aim ats... id suggest going to a crappy outdoor show, if you can get to one, where no one is gonna care about taping- some high school band on a pos pa or something like that. Take your stands and record about 10 minutes at 5-7ft of spread... then pause tape and move to 7-9ft... you get the idea... different mics have different spreads that work for them- for example- if you spread the neumann tlm 170's more than 10ft, there isn't enough crossover to make a good sounding tape, however some are able to split to 20 ft and make great tapes... so what im saying is you need to really experiment.

Jonny

BCostigan · « **Reply #2 on:** May 26, 2003, 04:19:45 PM »

Thanks Johnny! I've heard some great tapes of outdoor shows that were done split omni. Most that I've seen have been split @ 10ft...just wondering if that was a standard. So....anyone want to save me some legwork?? Anyone run NAK 300s/cp-2 split before?? Any advice on separation ect??

DaryanLenz · « **Reply #3 on:** May 26, 2003, 07:13:05 PM »

Brian,

If you want to hear some 10-15 ft spliut omni's from this weekend, I think they were Donna the Buffalo and The New Deal, let me know. Some dude was running AKG 482's split into a V3, and they sound pretty darn good.

Actually, I will offer u-p copies to anyone that wants to hear them!

Daryan

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #4 on:** May 26, 2003, 09:10:56 PM »

d,
count me in bro.......i was thinkin about snatchin up some 62's myself for the summer festies.....i would LOVE to hear something from them first.....

thanks and talk to you soon...

bean

BCostigan · « **Reply #5 on:** May 26, 2003, 09:47:12 PM »

Daryan...thanks for the offer! I've heard a handfull of different split omni tapes and they all sound great! I'm pretty sure ALL the ones I've heard have been made with large diaphram Neumans...so I was wondering on the spread, specifically for the Naks, that would work best. I may have to follow Johnny's suggestion and do some experimenting.

BCostigan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 26, 2003, 10:07:30 PM »

Mike I was hoping you'd chime in!

What's the Jecklin Disc

While I don't think running on two stands will be much trouble I'm curious what the Jecklin thing is!!

Thanks for using post #600 on my question!

BCostigan · « **Reply #7 on:** May 26, 2003, 10:12:08 PM »

A quick search using google provided the info. Does that crazy looking thing work?? Same results as splitting them?? I can imagine le looks strapping that to your stand!!

jessedscott · « **Reply #8 on:** May 27, 2003, 11:12:12 AM »

Ok , here's a "section" question. For those who are going to "IT", how close do you think "WE" can get to the stage?, before they say too far? Or will it not matter, seeing that there will most likely be 60,000+?
This answer will help me decide what I'm going to run with. BC, I think the Jecklin Disc is a great Idea, that's funny how I was trying to look at David Saunders web site last night for this very purpose, NOT Available

JDS

jessedscott · « **Reply #9 on:** May 27, 2003, 01:18:16 PM »

I have seen it in the past, on scitaper, I can't remember what the link was??? But yes it does look quite heavy.

JDS

wbrisette · « **Reply #10 on:** May 27, 2003, 02:29:17 PM »

Here are a few things about Omni's not posted.

When you spread out omni's too far apart you get the classic "hole in the middle". This was mentioned in a previous post, but described a bit different than I've heard it in the past. Basically what happens is your mics are so far apart that they no longer provide you with stereo image that captures all the music, you loose part of the instrumentation in the middle. With amplified music with amplifiers this isn't as big of an issue as it is with acoustic/classical music. Typically what is done to fix this is to run additional mics. For most tapers this isn't an option.

So, how far should you spread your mics? 4-10 feet is more than enough in most cases. I started running 4 feet, and have since shortened it to 1 metre. Why? Because the additional 8 inches doesn't provide me with any additional stereo imaging, and with my configuration it puts less stress on the horizontal bar (I have to come up with another way to attach the bar to my stand). By using a horizontal bar I only have to setup 1 mic stand, yet I still get to separate the microphones. See:

http://homepage.mac.com/wayneb/stand/homebrew.html

I run 4 mics, so my stand looks a bit strange to most folks, but I like the sound, so that's all that matters.

Hope all of this helps.

Wayne

RRobar · « **Reply #11 on:** May 27, 2003, 03:45:09 PM »

Brian,
Run the jecklin ! But you may wish to stake down the stand good though. I have a feeling the wind across the field area may be intense. The jdisc looks like it may be a sail in winds.

You guys shouldbe able to get pretty darn close at IT. But that j-disc may have to stay in back in the section nothing stealth about that thing

RRobar · « **Reply #12 on:** May 27, 2003, 04:02:50 PM »

But the "IT" show may be the perfect place to run such a thing.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #13 on:** May 27, 2003, 05:04:25 PM »

+T all star......

bean

BCostigan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2003, 06:11:07 PM »

+T rob for star #4!

Thanks to all on this thread...great info as always!

I think "IT" will be the perfect place to try this mostrocity. If I'm running omnis (with or without the jecklin) it'll be from the section....trying to run way FOB split omni seems a bit of a strech.

As for making this thing...I've got some questions for Mike:

Could I make one out of those egg crate matress things?? Put 2 1'x1' pieces togther (eggcrates inside) and attach some king of sheet metal stapping supports to the top and bottom??

I guess what I'm driving at is do I need something solid in the middle...ie plywood...or can I have some thick foam thats supported so it isn't flopping in the wind??

Suggestions on materials and construction??

Jesse....maybe we could run a 4 mic mix with the omnis and the guns.....we'd just need a mixer!

wbrisette · « **Reply #15 on:** May 27, 2003, 09:46:12 PM »

Quote from: BCostigan on May 27, 2003, 06:11:07 PM

Jesse....maybe we could run a 4 mic mix with the omnis and the guns.....we'd just need a mixer!

If you decide to actually try this, check around, you can rent 4 channel ENG (Electronic News Gathering) mixers (Wendt X4, FilmTech, Cooper, etc.). These are usually used in the film & video industry, but they work great for our application as well.

Wayne

BCostigan · « **Reply #16 on:** May 27, 2003, 09:47:47 PM »

Great info again Mike. Thanks.

I think I may make one of these to try at IT.

Is it only practical to use it outdoors (no roof, walls etc) or can it be used indoors with good results??

Thanks again!

jessedscott · « **Reply #17 on:** May 27, 2003, 10:48:22 PM »

Mike it's Phish Aug 2-3, Limestone,ME. They called it, "IT"

JDS

hoobash · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2003, 03:48:44 PM »

The tapers section at it is why to fair away from the stage. Most of the tapes made there are even worth listening to. I would forget about taping alll together and wait for the fob. The closer you are the better the omnis sound. I have run nak300 split onmi in the past and made nice tapes

BCostigan · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2003, 05:38:04 PM »

hoobash...I'll definately be taping at "It"...so if you're suggestion is to run as far FOB as possible, Thanks

I may not try the Jecklin but we may have a large enough FOB section to run split anyway. And if I have to get somewhat stealth about running FOB I'll just switch to the cards....many options here.

Not taping?? Just plain outa the question

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2003, 05:50:57 PM »

granted it gets nutty, the phish festie taperssection is one that is awesome in my book.......just watch for the occassional spun w00k and all will be good......plus, thats where all the GOOD stuff is snuck in...

and the sound there is usually phenominal.......paul knows what hes doin, and hes back just about that far anyway.......not knockin fob at all, just have a totally diff. opinion on the ts at phish festies.......the everglades was some of the best sound i've ever heard.......you could of taped at the portajohns there and pulled a decent tape.......and not as much of a hassle as fob'ing........just my 00.02.......

bean

BCostigan · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2003, 05:56:44 PM »

Bean...that's kinda my thought too. The TS at Phish fests is usaully just in front of the board...and Paul is mixing the sound from the board right?? Not sure why it wouldn't sound great there if it's where Paul is running the sound from??

At the Went we were about half a mile from the stage the night before the first show when they did a soundcheck....even from that far away it sounded pretty good!!

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #22 on:** May 28, 2003, 07:16:43 PM »

right on brian......my thoughts exactly......even behind the board, it soundz phantastic.......

bean

jessedscott · « **Reply #23 on:** May 28, 2003, 08:59:33 PM »

I'm sure there will be no problems getting up close at IT. Even if we are in the section, I've got guns

. We'll evaluate the situation once we get in. Whatever the situation, we've got the answer. Maybe this is the 4 mic mix solution?>>http://www.micsupply.com/m100fx.htm??

JDS

BCostigan · « **Reply #24 on:** May 28, 2003, 09:14:02 PM »

nah...there are better solutions I think....I'll PM you

hoobash · « **Reply #25 on:** May 28, 2003, 11:35:13 PM »

The section is WAY far from the stage at it. The fob tapes will sound ALOT better then anything in the section. Instead of going fob why not try one the relay towers?? You can get really close to one of those

wbrisette · « **Reply #26 on:** May 29, 2003, 04:46:35 AM »

Quote from: jessedscott on May 28, 2003, 08:59:33 PM

We'll evaluate the situation once we get in. Whatever the situation, we've got the answer. Maybe this is the 4 mic mix solution?>>http://www.micsupply.com/m100fx.htm??

Look closely at those specs. There is only 1 powered mic connection and it's a 1/4" connector. This is not the solution you are looking for...

Wayne

jessedscott · « **Reply #27 on:** May 29, 2003, 08:39:37 AM »

We are not going to run w/ 4 mics, it was just an idea. that was a mis- paste on the micsupply. we were looking at another mixer, but would have to bring a HUDGE! battery. Not gonna happin. Most likely we'll run shotguns from the section one night and cards or omnis wwwwwaaaaayyyy up front the other night.....

JDS

wbrisette · « **Reply #28 on:** May 29, 2003, 09:30:56 AM »

Don't toss out the thought of running a 4 mic mix. Despite what Doug O. may state, you can make some damn fine recordings with 4 mics. What you need is a nice portable ENG mixer. You can rent one of these pretty easily, so it might well be worth looking into.

Wayne

jessedscott · « **Reply #29 on:** May 29, 2003, 01:35:54 PM »

Or you could get a stock UA5 that doesn't disable the 1/4'. I think that could work?

JDS

BCostigan · « **Reply #30 on:** May 29, 2003, 05:25:02 PM »

What I suggested to Jesse in my PM involved:

Mackie dfx-6 (6 channel mixer)

12volt dc to 120 ac power inverter

a 30aH+ battery of some sort

and a pack mule.

We may explore the idea some more....just gotta spend more money is all.

jessedscott · « **Reply #31 on:** May 29, 2003, 10:52:25 PM »

I'll buy the pack mule!

JDS

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #32 on:** June 01, 2003, 11:39:12 PM »

Quote from: jessedscott on May 29, 2003, 10:52:25 PM

I'll buy the pack mule!

JDS

lemme throw a couple batts on there too.......

bean

Author Topic: ?'s about running Omni's (Read 13331 times)

jpschust

DaryanLenz

jessedscott

jessedscott

jessedscott

jessedscott

jessedscott

jessedscott

jessedscott