Topic: 4061 split on stage.. How wide?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Any suggestions for above stage spacing of 4061's for loud rock indoors (dino jr)?  I'll be only 5' in front of the guitar, drums and bass cabinets but will be above them. I'd estimate the width between the outside of the guitar cabs and the bass cabs to be about 22-24'.

I've run spaced 3-4 feet when 30' back with good results but never spaced on stage for loud rock.  I want to get good bass impact but not sloppy due to excessive spacing.. Disc is a possibility but so-so due to sightlines vs. raw 4061's.

Thanks!

[dean]

Any suggestions for above stage spacing of 4061's for loud rock indoors (dino jr)?  I'll be only 5' in front of the guitar, drums and bass cabinets but will be above them. I'd estimate the width between the outside of the guitar cabs and the bass cabs to be about 22-24'.

I've run spaced 3-4 feet when 30' back with good results but never spaced on stage for loud rock.  I want to get good bass impact but not sloppy due to excessive spacing.. Disc is a possibility but so-so due to sightlines vs. raw 4061's.

Thanks!

Get as far off the drums as possible.  That'll be the key to not get drowned out.  I assume they're in the middle, or at least I hope so for your benefit.  Also, use shock mounts if you can.  On stage for a loud rock band can create a whole bunch of bouncing and vibration (found that out the hard way, unfortunately).

Sorry to not *exactly* answer your question, but it'll really be all about splitting that drum kit.  A 10' split won't hurt a bit, but it all just depends how they set up, basically.

Also

[grider]

Dino Jr. is open taping by the way, I'd say three to four feet for the DPA's would be plenty

[beanstalk]

It all depends on the drum kit and stage size.. if the kit is in the middle run about 5-10 feet (depending on the band and stage size) which put you on either side of the kit and should give you a nice mix.

[ilduclo]

for dino, place one set nearest the vocalist (Mascis) You MIGHT get some vocals that way, otherwise the volume might totally overwhelm the vocals, which was my experience the last time I saw them. Let us know how it comes out. I have dpa's and have considered doing the same thing............

[beanstalk]

for dino, place one set nearest the vocalist (Mascis) You MIGHT get some vocals that way, otherwise the volume might totally overwhelm the vocals, which was my experience the last time I saw them. Let us know how it comes out. I have dpa's and have considered doing the same thing............

They have vocals?
If they have vocals I'd stay away from onstage placement unless you have something rolling to mix with your onstage mics (SBD or another set mics rolling off the PA).

[dean]

^  Yep.  Didn't know they had vocals.  If you have no other choice than onstage, split wide.  But you'll lack big time in vocal pickup.  As mentioned, if you don't have a matrix going, I'd consider backing up to get the PA mix instead...

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Thanks for the advice!  A friend recently had some bass issues running C4 omni's above this stage spaced about 7'.. I haven't heard it but the drums in that case were at one end of the stage. So maybe that created an arrival time double-whammy issue (or maybe the pre or mics just couldn't handle the intense bass, not sure).  That made me a little reluctant since wide spacing are new to me.

I ran 10' for soundcheck. The results sounded very encouraging on headphones but maybe a bit of a hole in the middle. So I narrowed it a bit (probably 8', maybe 9). I also had some asymmetry in the drum balance. I think that was due to having a near wall on only one end of the stage.

The mics were about 5.5' up and not more than 6' from the guitar and bass cabs. I'll try and calc the db once I get everything processed.  The unbalanced cable runs were long and literally on the surface of the main PA speakers.  I've had good success in the past with 4061 mic runs of 40', so I am hopeful.  I'll be shocked if the PA didn't mess with the recording.. What would you like with your 4061's tonight.. We have emi, cable microphonics, capsule vibe and no windscreens.. but it wouldn't be the first time the 4061's have shocked me.

But I've split my 4061's so now I'll have to run them more this way..

[grider]

100% of the songs have vocals to my knowledge, and this band is extremely loud, I mean really loud, so bring ear plugs and run your levels lower than normal or you will get overs in your recording levels

[ilduclo]

and, then your mics won't pick up the vocals. thus, the best on stage set up would be closest to either Mascis or the stage monitor with the vocal feed.....just my opinion

[dmonkey]

I for one am very interested in hearing your results. I'm a long-time Dino Jr fan. Taped them in SF last month and it was great, although the sound in the club (Slims) could have been better. Will you be doing a torrent? Just curious.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Well, the 4061 source is significantly lacking in bass and generally off balance with too much brightness. Sounds okay on headphones but is lacking on speakers.  The lack of bottom can be seen in freq analysis. I've already confirmed that the bbox rolloff was disabled.

I believe it is either cable or emi related. I need to test this long unbalanced setup in front of the stereo to track it down.  I'm bummed.. I think this could have been a really nice source. 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Isn't there a formula for approximating omni spacing at various distances?


I rigged the 4061's up in front of the stereo last night.. I went a bit too far in placing them low to emph bass but within a couple seconds of listening it is obvious that the long cable run is lacking.  It is also visually different in an fft freq analysis (baudline).  I borrowed a really cheap rca cable (which I still have) and I suspect that may have been a factor. I was going to run to ratshack and get one but was just had too much going on..

So now I need to determine if it was the rca cable and what role EMI played.  After the rca cable the signal went into  some canare mic cable.

[Gutbucket]

I find I need to monitor with in-ears while adjusting the A-B spacing for best results, but that's not always possible.

DPA's 'Stereo Recording with DPA Microphones' (approx. 1 Mb) Covers the effect of spacing on the recording angle for omnis, (and spacing and mic angle for directional mics) with nice graphs to show the correlations.  That paper does not address the effects of the spit distance on perceived frequency response though, which I consider more elementary and important than optimizing the recording angle and sound stage postition distortions.

DPA does mention this elsewhrere on their site:

Microphone spacing
An important consideration when setting up for A-B stereo recordings is the distance between the two microphones. Since the acoustic character of the stereo recording is very much a question of taste, it is impossible to give fast rules for stereo microphone spacing, although it is a good idea to keep some important acoustic factors in mind.

Since the stereo width of a recording is frequency-dependent, the deeper the tonal qualities you wish to reproduce in stereo, the wider your microphone spacing should be. Using a recommended microphone spacing of a quarter of the wavelength of the deepest tone, and taking into account the human ear's reduced ability to localise frequencies below 150Hz, leads to an optimal microphone spacing of between 40 and 60 cm. Smaller microphone spacings are often used close to sound-sources to prevent the sound image of a particular musical instrument from becoming "too wide" and unnatural. Spacings down to 17 to 20 cm are detectable by the human ear, as this distance is equivalent to the distance between the two ears themselves.

It should also be noted, that an increase in microphone spacing will decrease the system's ability to reproduce the signals from sound-sources positioned directly between the microphones. This will also lead to a reduction in the quality of the stereo recording when it is played in mono.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

GB, thanks for the omni info..

I just dug into the cables I used for this and found a serious problem. My unbal to bal adapter was wrong.

In order to pull off the spaced on stage omnis, I needed to recable my DPAs to RCA and create a new female 1/8 to xlr adapter.  I did that in a hugely rushed job right before I left (late) for soundcheck...  I forgot to tie pin 3 on the xlr to pin 1 and the cable shield.  So the sig from the mic went to pin 2 and the ground from the mic to pin 3. So that probably left an already vulnerable and poorly located unbal cable even more susceptible to badness.

I only tried this last minute change because I was running other sources.. so all is not lost... I'm sure I'll revisit this same setup with correct cables in the future..  Though maybe not quite as widely spaced and hopefully with no cables on the PA cabs...

The cable setup looked like this:
                                                                     bad
dpa ---- 6 feet ---- rca - male plug - rca ------ 12' ---- rca -- rca to xlr ----- 25' bal canare --- v3 > 722