Topic: 480 or 460 Owners; How Best Use Your Caps

[stevetoney]

Interesting write-up Moke...especially regarding the X-Y experimentation. 

There's something very confounding to me about mic configurations.  See, I'm a mechanical engineer and because of that, I have a hard time when things aren't totally logical.  I've tried to relate alot of this stuff to a kinda logical thought process and think about how sound waves interact...and then use that to kinda see, from a logical perspective, how each configuration works.

Frankly, for the most part, I guess lots of this is logical but then again, it seems like it can be very particular to the specific recording situation and the variables involved. 

This is why I think that it's probably important to conduct experiments like you did for X-Y so you can see when it's best utilized.  I suppose the lesson that can be learned is that there may be a fine line that determines when one techique might be better utilized than another.  That also leads me to believe that blanket statements such as, 'never run X-Y' might be the result of not experimenting enough to know exactly the situations that would warrant when that specific technique is best implemented.

All goes to show that part of the fun of this hobby is not just the final destination, but the journey along the way.

[Nick's Picks]

I run my 461s XY all the time, and I think it smokes.
love it.

DIN and ORTF as well.  but XY is my "go to" config mostly.

[OFOTD]

Personally I have never found XY to be a strength of the ck6x capsules.  I have experimented with both cards and hypers in this config running as two channel as well as using them as a pair in a four channel recording.  They have never sounded good to me. 

Omnis - Split 'em.  I will run the omnis either AB aimed at the center (horizontal plane) of stacks when not split.  When split I run them straight ahead parallel to one another.   Biggest split i've done is 35' outdoors with pretty damn good results.

Hypers - I truly believe that the ck63's are hands down the best hyper cap on the market.  They are always a go to cap when you even have to think about it.  DIN or DINa only.

Cards - I'll only use them if on stage or real close as well as most non-shed outdoor shows.  I typically default to the hypers though when at sheds anyways..

[jeromejello]

i use my 61's 90% of the time.  i just prefer them to the hypers for my taping needs.  i typically run ortf, with one venue using xy just because.

there has been maybe 3 or 4 times where i would have rather run either the 63s or a different config (of course that is all in hindsight).

[DaveG73]

Sorry to be so off topic, but what is the difference between DIN and DINa?

I know I saw a link or PDF file somewhere here previously, but it isn't on any of the ones I have saved/bookmarked.

Apologies for the basic question.

Please carry on as if I wasn't here.

Dave.

[DaveG73]

din = 20cm 90º (more for cards than hypers)
din-a = 17cm 90º (more for hypers than cards)

Many Thanks Moke.

+T

Dave.

[stevetoney]

I understand that if you can't physically split omni's, then split them by putting something in between, like a foam disc.

However, does the size of the disc determine how far away from the disc the mics can be?  For example, for a smaller disc (say 1 ft diameter), each omni should be kinda close to the disc (say an inch or two) so less stray sound comes around the disc from the other side.  For a bigger disc, maybe not so critical to have the capsule so close to the disc?

[Jammin72]

I also run the CK63's in an XY configuration in most cases, right at about 90 deg. They are able to be run opened up a bit more and still give you good sound but 90 is a great place to start and easy to setup in the field. AKG's have a very natural high end they lend themselves to the coincident mic setups.  You'll get an incredibly solid center image, great rejection of room reverbarations and if done correctly good depth.  Most of the time when you're wanting to use the hypers the benefit of a coincident technique is also applicable.  You can use ORTF but if you look at the polar pattern of the capsules it's really a bit wide so DIN90 would be a better option if you would like to attmept to get a little more room.

With the CK61's I like using X,Y at 110 or an ORTF configuration.  ORTF is quite frankly the most natural producer of a 3 dimensional image that I've heard.  I've personally found the 61's a bit too relaxed in the high end from time to time which is why I like to use the X,Y so that those frequencies really stick but you do sacrifice a bit of the size of the soundstage in both depth and width.  Outdoors and really good sounding theathers with an attentive crowd is the application here.

Don't worry where you point an omni, it's a pure presseure transducer and pointing isn't going to matter that much.  The trick with split omnis is getting them aligned poperly. Stick with a shorter distance like 6'-8' and you'll get a much better shot at getting them ligned up in the horizontal plane with the actual soundfield.  It's really hard to do correctly but you can make adjustments in post if it isn't just exaclty perfect.  This technique is great for ambient tracks to mix with a soundboard, or for that unique outdoor opportunity when you're in just the right spot.   Only problem I have with omni's these days is that you are seldom blessed with an audience that is actually there to listen to the music in many cases.  They've become about useless in rock settings but can be fantastic at your favorite bluegrass festival with an attentive crowd. 

Great news is that a bunch of folks have your back in any given outing, you can experiment and find out just exactly what does it for you.

Enjoy, they're a great ststem with which to work.

[Gordon]

for starters do not run XY, ever, then

Also considering easyjim and girders subsequent comments, getting comments on X-Y was one of the reasons I posted this question.  The reason I ask is that Oade says the following on his website...

****
Coincident Taping Methods 

Coincident techniques are the most popular type for stereo recording. These are most often implemented using directional microphones vertically aligned on a common axis and set at an angle to each other in the horizontal plane.

The advantages this method offers are minimum phase differences between the two capsules for sound sources lying within the horizontal plane. Another is the angular accuracy of the stereo image not being affected by the distance of the microphones from the sound source. All large diaphragm (1 inch and larger) microphones should be used in this manner for satisfying results. Some small diaphragm microphones , most notably the Schoeps Collette series, suffer from a lack of "sense of space" utilizing this method, due to the lack of interchannel delay time. The Microtech Geffel small diaphragm mics do not exhibit this problem. Near coincident techniques are recommended for microphones with these problems, where they can yield very good results.
 
*****

He goes on later to state...

X-Y Techniques for Hypercardiods & Cardioids 

The most commonly used technique is the x-y cardioid and hypercardioid. The microphone pair can be setup with an included angle between 60 and 120 degrees. The angle will determine the apparent width of the stereo image, the amount of reverberant sound and the bass response. The wider the angle the more natural the soundfield up to the point where the angle becomes too great and a hole appears in the center. 90 degrees provides good results with any cardioid or hypercardioid microphone.
 
*****

So, I guess the 480's fall in the same class as Schoeps in the above paragraphs.  If so, I find it interesting that Oade starts this discussion by saying that this technique is the most popular and that X-Y is the most commonly used technique. 

I know that we don't represent the whole world of recording here, but it does seem that these two statements are somewhat contradictory to other statements in his writeup, but also do not agree with the general concensus here on TS.com. 

Seems to me that very few people run X-Y.
 

when I first got my 480's in 2003 before I ever knew of this site I read that and ran xy all the time.  I now regret it for most of those shows.  din or dina all the way with the 480's.

[Kindguy]

Just a ramble here. I ran 480's or mod 460's for a good 4+ years.

Usually never ran XY only in a bad boomy room. IMO the 481/3's like to be opened up DIN or ORTF.

I never pulled a good tape with the 62's. Probably all user error. I remember always thinking "wish I ran the cards".

I sold the 62's & bought a set of a61 swivels. For some reason I really liked running the swivels. It just felt good.

Jeff

[Shawn]

Don't worry where you point an omni, it's a pure presseure transducer and pointing isn't going to matter that much. 

this isn't entirely true. Just a small correction, and reiteration of easyjim's point...

Being front address omnis, the ck62 caps should be pointed at the sound source since they are still somewhat directional in the higher frequencies.

[Chuck]

Omnis... to my ears, offer the most realistic sound you can get with a pair of microphones.

I find myself in the postion where I have a second rig to run, so I can experiment with the omni's and still come away with a good recording, on my other rig, if the omni experiment does not work.

I recorded Phil and Friends at the Fillmore, from the section. I only spread the mics about 13" (inches, not feet) and PAS, I used the 70 hz roll-off on the 460 bodies and no other processing:

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46255

I tend to disagree that omni's always need to be split far apart. In this recording, I hear plenty of separation between the instruments.
I'm on an omni kick. After I'm done with spacing experiments I'm moving to baffling them.

[OFOTD]

I have done a good bit of experimentation with omnis (482) as well.   I've tried everything from a 30' split at an outdoor bluegrass festival and a 25' split outdoors at a Black Crowes show to an AB split on a Vert Bar (2"-3") at a recent outdoor Crowes show.   Additionally I've tried everything in between.  I have a 36" split bar that I made for indoors shows as well that works great.

I've found that either pointing right at the stacks with the mics parallel to one another OR running on the inside edge of the stacks produce for me the best results.  Alot of the spacing/split problems for me as well depend on the crowd.  At the Crowes where I did a 25' split there is some wind phasing from the PA (present on the other tapes as well) but the crowd noise was kept to a minimum as I ran at about 12' - 15'.  Really ended up being a nice tape with a large soundstage.  One tape that I love listening to with headphones. 

Otherwise for the most part I use my omnis as fill when making 4 channel tapes.  Oh and I never use windscreens with them in any situation.

Doug Oade is a very big proponent of running XY.  While that config may be great with other mics it certainly is not a good choice with the 480's.  Cards or hypers.  DIN or DINa really shine with the AKG's (non omni caps) and make them an almost idiot proof mics/config combination.  I always always kick myself in the ass for running XY.  Well actually I don't run that config anymore with my 480's.  Ugggh.

One technique that I have not used is a Jecklin Disk.  Moreso that I just haven't had one and don't remember the folks who were making them a while back.   But i'd love to get y hands on one to try that's for sure.

[Jammin72]

Just curious for the folks that do not like the X,Y on the AKG's what is it that you don't like?

[Nick's Picks]

Doug Oade is a very big proponent of running XY.  While that config may be great with other mics it certainly is not a good choice with the 480's. 

I think that as a blanket statement, that is pretty bunk.
I can show you TONS of excellent AKG XY recordings.  I've made lots of them myself, plus there are many , many others out there.
I dont think i've ever heard any mic that sucks XY.

see my Lowell Ratdog 8-12 on LMA for reference.
I"ve also got some great Panic from recent, done XY.  Allman Brothers...and i'm sure there is more.

Cards or hypers.  DIN or DINa really shine with the AKG's (non omni caps) and make them an almost idiot proof mics/config combination.  I always always kick myself in the ass for running XY.  Well actually I don't run that config anymore with my 480's.  Ugggh.

now that is fact.
DIN w/the AKGs makes them idiot proof.  you are almost guaranteed a good tape in any room.