Topic: Photos: D50, R09HR, M10

[Belexes]

Some photos for size comparison between the decks. I threw a 9100 in there for fun since many of us own one.

[bgalizio]

Very nice! Can you run a line-in test for all 3 from your CD player output? I'd love to hear the ADC differences between the 3 recorders.

[Belexes]

Would need to know a step-by-step on how to do that. I do have RCA>Stereo-mini cable.

[bgalizio]

Would need to know a step-by-step on how to do that. I do have RCA>Stereo-mini cable.

This would be my basic guide:
1. Hook CD output to recorder input.
2. Set recorder to 24/48 (or 24/96, whatever you usually use) and unity gain
3. Play song on CD player and hit record on recorder (preferably use a DVD-A or SACD source disc)
4. Repeat for all 3 recorders, and maybe use a couple different tracks/styles of music
5. Examine audio files to ensure that they peak around the same level (they should if recorders are set at "unity gain")
6. Post the files here so we can listen and judge!

This really helped me compare the R-09 and R-09HR when I had both those recorders (and helped me ditch the R-09). I'm most interested in the M10 vs. R-09HR. Of course, this only compares the line-in performance.

[Belexes]

Seems like everyone here though has their own idea of what unit is on these decks.

6 on M10 and D50?
40 on HR?

[johnw]

Seems like everyone here though has their own idea of what unit is on these decks.

6 on M10 and D50?
40 on HR?

i think it is 5 on the D50. could be wrong though.

[Cheesecadet]

I've heard 6 a few times for the M10


Should have mine on Monday so will get to fiddle around with it soon enough 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

5. Examine audio files to ensure that they peak around the same level (they should if recorders are set at "unity gain")

I think there is a lot of confusion around that, and even how to measure it.  Ultimately, it is hard to know when a recorder has added or subtracted gain..   And then there is the critical "what sounds best?"

For example, a recorder's design may always add +4dB to the input.   To get back to "unity", it may be necessary to adjust the trim to subtract that 4dB.  That "subtraction" may happen via digital scaling, or attenuation..  It may be best not to remove that 4dB in the recorder.

I recall guysonic's methodology involved comparing the input test signal level with the output signal level from the recorder's headphone output.  I think that makes some potentially invalid assumptions about the headphone output level.

In any case, I think the levels will vary between units

[bgalizio]

You could try this:

Generate a test tone with your favorite audio editor.
Record this test tone to each recorder (computer audio out > recorder line-in).
Systematically change the recorder levels during recording.
Find out where all 3 record at the same level and use those settings for the test.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Find out where all 3 record at the same level and use those settings for the test.

I've done that before (with pink noise), calibrating against the 0db setting on the 722.  It is somewhat time-consuming, tedious and boring to do, but it seems to work...  Though despite all that time spent, the irony was that the best test was listening.  That is where I confirmed that low trim settings on the r09 (and r09hr) distorted bass.

I think doing the test with the recorders at the commonly accepted unity gain settings will be fine and very useful.  Having interesting source material, with strong bass, good soundstage, etc, will be key.   My preference would be for something stage lip or on stage rather than PA.

[bgalizio]

Find out where all 3 record at the same level and use those settings for the test.

I've done that before (with pink noise), calibrating against the 0db setting on the 722.  It is somewhat time-consuming, tedious and boring to do, but it seems to work...  Though despite all that time spent, the irony was that the best test was listening.  That is where I confirmed that low trim settings on the r09 (and r09hr) distorted bass.

I think doing the test with the recorders at the commonly accepted unity gain settings will be fine and very useful.  Having interesting source material, with strong bass, good soundstage, etc, will be key.   My preference would be for something stage lip or on stage rather than PA.

Agreed. I think having the levels the same, or very close, is key. Good source material is key too. When I compared the R-09 and R-09HR, I found a little difference using the American Beauty DVD-A, but a much bigger difference with Nickel Creek SACD.

[Ozpeter]

I've just connected the line output of a couple of devices here to the line input of the M10 and the level on the M10 seems to need to be set at "4" for the metering on the playback devices to correspond to the metering of the M10.  I would suggest anyone wanting to get a feel for M10 line input level setting would do well to do the same experiment, in other words, connect it to whatever fixed-output-level devices you have available when replaying a typical rock CD, and see what level tends to be right.  On the basis of my very small experiment I would certainly not start at "6" - I think you'd run a good chance of overloads.

[chrise]

Shurely this also depends on how "hot" the output from the source device is.

[Ozpeter]

In theory all line out levels should be equal but indeed they can and do vary.  Hence the need to get a feel for what it typical, and what is worst case (hottest), to assist in making decisions on levels in advance of actually hearing anything.  However one can also measure the output voltage from a device reproducing a sine wave and determine whether it's true line level or not.  I'd need to google to remind myself what it should be.

[Dede2002]

Thanks, Belexes