Topic: Multitrack Interface for Digital Consoles

[kcmule]

Well,

Looks like I'll be needing to get on the digital bandwagon real soon as two of the three consoles in my venue are going to soon be digital, which means everything I've been using now for multitrack recording is virtually useless [oh joy!].

Soundcraft Expression SI 3 consoles are being used.  MADI expansion cards are about $1000 each, and recording devices are not cheap either.  I'm leaning toward firewire since the expansion cards are about $400 each and recording interfaces are more reasonably priced.

I've not done too much homework in this area so perhaps I'm all wet but, can't I go directly from a firewire expansion card in the console to a laptop?  I realize I'd be at the mercy of FOH, regarding levels but that is already the case with my HD24 (I have no pre's).

[kcmule]

Looks like, per the soundcraft site, it is possible to go directly to laptop via one firewire port.
(http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=191 (Soundcraft Multi Digital Card Application Notes)

I'm not sure if the signal is routed from the console pre or post effects.

[kcmule]

You should be able to, the expansion card should act as an interface.  You'll need to install the Soundcraft drivers on your laptop.  I don't know the channel limit for Firewire though, it's pretty high but maybe not as high as MADI--they don't seem show the multi-dig card capacities in their brochure on I/O.  It should be at least the 24 channels you were getting with the HD24.

From what I've read the firewire limit is 32 channels.  MADI is 56 or 64.  That brochure they show I don't think is really for the Expression series.  They do list the card further down on the site.

MADI is different, it's just a transmission protocol, and I don't think there's ever been a laptop with onboard MADI support.  You'd need an external interface for that.  RME has an express card one, but it's not real cheap.

I've seen the external MADI laptop interface, $1500-$1700.  OUCH.
[/quote]

Another option is three of the multi-digital cards and then ADAT to your HD24.  That is more expensive but arguably more robust than Firewire, and wouldn't require any driver/software install.

Since there are two consoles I'll be recording from, I don't think buying 6 cards at $400 each (maybe less from a dealer, rather than on-line retailer but..) is economical.
I'll have to buy a laptop but I think the expansion cards will be venue expense.

One advantage of a digital mixer is that you should be able to get your own submixes routed to the digital outs, or even direct outs to the digital outs.  That should be ideal if the channel gain is set correctedly; you aren't affected by the main or monitor mixes at all, and if you're really clever you can save your settings (presuming the channel assignments tend to be the same).

I'm hoping for direct outs, I don't care much for groups.  I like having complete control over each channel.  Most channel assignments will likely remain fairly static but since this is a new adventure for the venue, I'm not real sure of the FOH workflow just yet.

[kcmule]

You'll have to read the manual, but the point of a digital mixer is everything is done in DSP, and since a digital out does not require a physical output, just a datastream conversion, there is no particular reason the digital output isn't totally configurable, unless they wrote their code in a manner to limit it.  The digital outputs ought to be completely assignable and maybe even have their own DSP.

I'll crack open the directions (directions?  We don't need no stinking directions!) and see what they have to say.


Thanks for the replies.

[kcmule]

Page 52 of the user manual describes patching but doesn't have examples for Firewire.

[kcmule]

Anyone use a tablet instead of a laptop for this?

[kcmule]

It's unlikely a tablet will have the horsepower required for multichannel audio, although I suppose some of the top-end ones might by now.  But then you're stuck needing drivers for USB or Firewire, which probably don't exist for iOs or Android, and DAW apps for both OSes are still far behind PC/Mac functionality.

What you see people using tablets with digital consoles is for control; the series I used to do did that with a Presonus Studiolive and an iPad.  The FOH engineer sat in a seat and mixed on the iPad; the mixer sat sidestage so as to have short runs for the inputs and monitor outs.

I've seen those small tablets used for FOH.  Guess I'm looking to buy a laptop, let the research begin! (ugh)

[kirk97132]

Have read a little more closley I see that you work there.  SO obviously some of the stuff below is not relevant.  I left the post intact for others who might be looking in from the outside and considering options where they go to record.  But as another person using digi boards I think if I was gonna drop coin I'd go madi.  Just get it over with and then you'll be set for a lot of future stuff.   Just my two cents

Having used the Soundcraft SI, the Roland M400 The Alllen & Health GLD-80 and now we just switched over tho the Allen & Heath I Live112 where I work.  I have a couple of comments for the OP and all.  Are you sure the House is going to let you instal any type of card into their console?  ANd if you do I would be prepared to never see it again. It's not something I would EVER expect you to walk in install and then remove it at the end of the night. It's just not "plug and play" stuff.  It also isn't like just sticking in a CF card into a slot.  cover to remove, so depending on access and sbd area layout could be an issue too.   Any instals obviously need to be done one the console directory structure too.  Which usually is something tah requires a reboot, like any computer based item.  IF you walked up to me after I had done line checks and sound check and handed me a card to install I'd laugh in your face.   Any thought is maybe in the long run a split snake with iso would be cheaper.  You are still gonna need the house permission to jump into their signal flow.  Even with a card installed unless they go in and set routing to output where you want ti there is not going to be any signal present.  Another thing to look out for is that any last minute additions like sit ins could end up not being routed due to the FOH guy only worrying about the show and not your recording.  Before insesting anything I'd talk to the house people and see if they will even let you any of the things you are talking about.  Could be they are not going to be down with it. 

[kcmule]

Have read a little more closley I see that you work there.  SO obviously some of the stuff below is not relevant.  I left the post intact for others who might be looking in from the outside and considering options where they go to record.  But as another person using digi boards I think if I was gonna drop coin I'd go madi.  Just get it over with and then you'll be set for a lot of future stuff.   Just my two cents

I'd love to go MADI and be done with it, however, it is expensive and that (expansion card) cost would be doubled since there are two consoles I need to record from.  I'd have to get the venue to buy $2k worth of cards instead of $800 and my personal expense would nearly quadruple.  Ouch.  Getting the card(s) installed and the routing done won't be an issue.

I'm also not sure if I'll be limited to 32 channels (I'm at 24 now, so it's still an upgrade).  Soundcraft shows an example where one FW port goes to a laptop and the other is used for an external drive.  Not sure if I can run both into a laptop (dual FW card in the lappy?) and get 64 total.

[cybergaloot]

It's unlikely a tablet will have the horsepower required for multichannel audio, although I suppose some of the top-end ones might by now.  But then you're stuck needing drivers for USB or Firewire, which probably don't exist for iOs or Android, and DAW apps for both OSes are still far behind PC/Mac functionality.

What you see people using tablets with digital consoles is for control; the series I used to do did that with a Presonus Studiolive and an iPad.  The FOH engineer sat in a seat and mixed on the iPad; the mixer sat sidestage so as to have short runs for the inputs and monitor outs.

I've seen those small tablets used for FOH.  Guess I'm looking to buy a laptop, let the research begin! (ugh)

I'd highly recommend getting a Macbook Pro. And this comes from a PC guy. I bought one a year ago and have never had it balk at anything I've asked it to do. Granted, so far it has been mainly running Audacity but I have played with other multitrack apps on it plus I run the Adobe CS 5 suite on it. I was worried about getting a Win 7 machine because of the times I've seen them go off into LaLa land for no apparent reason with that little wheel spinning until it was good a ready to do what I asked. That's not a good thing for live recording. Besides, Logic Pro X just came out today and its $199.00.

[kcmule]

It's unlikely a tablet will have the horsepower required for multichannel audio, although I suppose some of the top-end ones might by now.  But then you're stuck needing drivers for USB or Firewire, which probably don't exist for iOs or Android, and DAW apps for both OSes are still far behind PC/Mac functionality.

What you see people using tablets with digital consoles is for control; the series I used to do did that with a Presonus Studiolive and an iPad.  The FOH engineer sat in a seat and mixed on the iPad; the mixer sat sidestage so as to have short runs for the inputs and monitor outs.

I've seen those small tablets used for FOH.  Guess I'm looking to buy a laptop, let the research begin! (ugh)

I'd highly recommend getting a Macbook Pro. And this comes from a PC guy. I bought one a year ago and have never had it balk at anything I've asked it to do. Granted, so far it has been mainly running Audacity but I have played with other multitrack apps on it plus I run the Adobe CS 5 suite on it. I was worried about getting a Win 7 machine because of the times I've seen them go off into LaLa land for no apparent reason with that little wheel spinning until it was good a ready to do what I asked. That's not a good thing for live recording. Besides, Logic Pro X just came out today and its $199.00.

That's a tough one for me.  I'm also a PC guy.  I was planning on using Samplitude as the interface.

[IowaClint]

I mix on a Roland M-480 and all we do is run a single cat 5/6 cable out the back of the console to a Quad Core laptop that has the reac drivers installed and use a production version of Cakewalk and that gets me all 48 channels.
~Clint

[kcmule]

I wondered about the cat5/6 route.  The only network jack on the console in HiQnet.

From what I understand thus far:

The inside stage will remain connected via analog snake (32 channels).  That is generally enough for that stage.

The outside stage will have a digi stage box but will use both analog and digi-snake to get 60 channels.  I was told there is a MADI cat5 card for the outside stage, but I do not know if it is the single or double jack expansion card.

[kirk97132]

I mix on a Roland M-480 and all we do is run a single cat 5/6 cable out the back of the console to a Quad Core laptop that has the reac drivers installed and use a production version of Cakewalk and that gets me all 48 channels.
~Clint

We didn't run the roland for long when we were trying out consoles, ....but...I "believe" that only works on a Roland. 

[IowaClint]

I mix on a Roland M-480 and all we do is run a single cat 5/6 cable out the back of the console to a Quad Core laptop that has the reac drivers installed and use a production version of Cakewalk and that gets me all 48 channels.
~Clint

We didn't run the roland for long when we were trying out consoles, ....but...I "believe" that only works on a Roland.

You are correct.  For the applications we use it for it's perfect.  Smaller bands, singer song writers, etc.....