Topic: TASCAM DR-680 portable 8-track #6

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Sorry to come after so many things seem to have happened with this Tascam since it was released.

But today I found myself recommending the DR-680 on the BMCuser forum, but not having never actually used it.

On that forum they were considering using a Sound Devices Mix Pre-D to feed a Tascam DR-60D. IMHO you could get more capabilities by simply using a DR-680.

But the reliability question was not something I was considering, and that's why I came here to get some feedback on the DR-680 field use.

You are certainly aware that double-system audio has been reinstated since the use of DSLR video cameras became so widespread. Some insist on recording on the video cameras, but most are aware that if you want high quality audio you need to record it on an external digital recorder.

The Tascam DR-60D is probably becoming a standard, at least on that forum, which is a good sign, as that Tascam  deserves it, in spite of its hum issues and limited battery times.

A superficial reading here has already shown we to potential problems: battery issues and temperature potential problems.

Can anyone please elaborate a bit more on these two and tell what other problems have been reported for location audio?

[kirk97132]

Sorry to come after so many things seem to have happened with this Tascam since it was released.

But today I found myself recommending the DR-680 on the BMCuser forum, but not having never actually used it.

On that forum they were considering using a Sound Devices Mix Pre-D to feed a Tascam DR-60D. IMHO you could get more capabilities by simply using a DR-680.

But the reliability question was not something I was considering, and that's why I came here to get some feedback on the DR-680 field use.

You are certainly aware that double-system audio has been reinstated since the use of DSLR video cameras became so widespread. Some insist on recording on the video cameras, but most are aware that if you want high quality audio you need to record it on an external digital recorder.

The Tascam DR-60D is probably becoming a standard, at least on that forum, which is a good sign, as that Tascam  deserves it, in spite of its hum issues and limited battery times.

A superficial reading here has already shown we to potential problems: battery issues and temperature potential problems.

Can anyone please elaborate a bit more on these two and tell what other problems have been reported for location audio?

Carlos, Are a Tascam Rep? Are you an employee of Tascam?  It might help, at least, if you could identify yourself if you are.  I would love to talk to someone from Tascam, someone who will actually listen and then address the issues.  I can give you an extensive list of issues since I now own two of them and have been involved in this discussion from the begining.  But....If you are someone that is a relative newcomer to tapersection and recording in general looking to glean information from over 7 series of posts I'd say take a weekend and read the posts. To just breeze in and ask for the cliff notes of the information we have all figured out the hard way doesn't show much respect for the people involved.  BUt  really hope that you are officially here from Tascam. And I will keep my finger crossed that if you are we don't get any of the standard put offs or canned responses that are pretty much the standard from Tascam, Kirk 

[lukpac]

To just breeze in and ask for the cliff notes of the information we have all figured out the hard way doesn't show much respect for the people involved.

Arguably telling somebody to suck it and read a 6 part thread to get an overview of the problems shows far less respect.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Of course I am not a Tascam rep or have anything to do with Tascam.

I am not a relative newcomer to Tapersection. If you read the posts I wrote (175) may not be as many as you, but I did have my share a few years ago, when I was involved in some recording projects.

What I do remember too is that people here were more cordial and helpful than you are being. If you don't want to help, it's your prerrogative, but to treat me as disrespectful is not. You are the one being so.

I have been in technical forums for a long long time, since they were mail connected, and people have always been generous and open, and helpful. And I always was so too, here and everywhere I was in. Speaker forums, solid state audio forums, location audio forums, and many many more.

Nobody is expected to read pages and pages of posts, and if you think someone would you are completely wrong. And that's certainly not unrespectful. You are the first person I find in these forums that showed a lack of generosity, very rude indeed.

Of course I will not be expecting any opinion on the extensive list of issues you mentioned about this recorder, and I certainly do not want it.

Carlos

[capnhook]

Sorry to come after so many things seem to have happened with this Tascam since it was released.

But today I found myself recommending the DR-680 on the BMCuser forum, but not having never actually used it.

I can't figure why anyone would do this.   

[Carlos E. Martinez]

I read what I wrote on the BMCuser forum, and I didn't actually recommend the DR-680. Simply suggested it as an alternative option to what someone was considering using.

You see, I was a film location recordist for a very long time, in the '70s and '80s. Later on, in the '90s, I started an audio equipment rental business for film & TV, which lasted until the early XXI years.

You start to vow for products that you haven't used yet, probably because in my old times some brands seemed to warrant the quality when they released some product, and such products were more sparse... and expensive. If you ever handle a portable analog Nagra you will know what I mean.

But that did start to change in the '80s and '90s, and it's probably not what it was anymore. Tascam (formerly Teac) started releasing pro-audio products, and their DAT machines and 8-channel studio Hi-8 tape machines became a hit. I did own one of their portables, and rented it, even if it was rather fragile.

Perhaps I continue to do what I did on my business: let my recordist experience read the specs between the lines, if that's really possible, and pick what might be a good product. That's probably what I did when I suggested the DR-680.

The tide is turning on the affordable portable video market, and doing double system audio is becoming the norm. As double system audio is something I know quite a bit of, my experience may help.

Another thing is that there has been a spread in pricing too. And also several new combinations, putting together multi-channel mixers with digital recorders.

Brands like Sound Devices, Nagra and others occupy the multi-thousand niches, and others like Tascam and Roland are offering products that might become useful tools, as long as they are reliable.

Portability, size, weight and plenty of channels is key for location audio. Unfortunately these recorders demand more attention that 2-channel ones. And so require a sound person to handle them.

But that might also change with these DSLR video cameras popularity. The camera assistant is coming back, and probably the sound recordist too.

In any case, the Tascam DR-680 seems to fill above requirements.

[kirk97132]

To just breeze in and ask for the cliff notes of the information we have all figured out the hard way doesn't show much respect for the people involved.

Arguably telling somebody to suck it and read a 6 part thread to get an overview of the problems shows far less respect.

In your opinion.  IF I ever want to find out some knowledge about something I take the time to do the research myself.  then I might ask some questions.  Everything you would want to know about the issue a multitude of people have had...pro and con...is all here in those pages it's just that easy.  If you don't want to bother reading them............

[kirk97132]

Sorry to come after so many things seem to have happened with this Tascam since it was released.

But today I found myself recommending the DR-680 on the BMCuser forum, but not having never actually used it.

I can't figure why anyone would do this.   

X2       then there is recommending something because of what  someone else said without doing any in depth  research...

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Has anyone seen the service DR-680 service manual to see how the mic balanced inputs are implemented? Chips used and all that?

From what I read and some YouTube videos around, the preamps seem not to do that bad when compared to Sound Devices pres, which is a very good thing to say.

There are not that many weak points to see. Perhaps the whole bunch of keys at the top, but they don't seem to me as something you will often need to mess with every moment. You set them (or check) in the morning, and off you go.

From a practical point of view, based on my recordist experience, perhaps the only weak point is having just one pot to set levels one at the time for each channel.

OTOS that might not be a major problem it you always use limiters (which you should on a film location recording) and if you set the levels properly on the wireless mics you will probably use on at least 5 inputs out of 6.

Then you can let the "wild" pot free to take care of the boom mic, which is the one that might get you into trouble.

The battery question, which I saw mentioned somewhere on this forum as a troublesome one, I would handle as I did with my TC slates, that carried similar 8-AA battery packs. Get some NimH 12v packs and problem solved.

As I believe in time-code as the safest way to keep things in sync, what I wonder is how to possibly adapt a time-code generator on one of the audio channels. Perhaps Input 6 could be used for that on track 6, also mic radioing the stream to the video camera(s).

Some people think TC is not necessary if you are organized and do slate your shots as in film times. But maybe TC is a a more efficient way if your crew is very small.

[kirk97132]

 Tascam (formerly Teac) started releasing pro-audio products, and their DAT machines and 8-channel studio Hi-8 tape machines became a hit.

Tascam is not formerly Teac is that what someone told you?
In 1953, a pair of engineers in Japan - the Tani brothers - created the first TEAC product line, which was comprised of open-reel audio tape recorders. In the late 1960's, the Tani brothers and Dr. Abe, a senior engineer at TEAC, formed a special R&D group named TASC (TEAC Audio Systems Corp.) for the purpose of researching ways to apply TEAC's recording technology for musicians and recording studios.  Tascam started out as a research and development group to research how to use TEAC's recording technology in musician and recording studio products. The group was called TASC (TEAC Audio Systems Corp). The founders included Mr. K. Tani, one of the founders of TEAC-Japan and Dr. Abe, a senior TEAC-Japan engineer. In 1971 TASCAM (TASC AMerica Corp.) was founded to distribute TASC products in the U.S.  Tascam's first products were TEAC brand multitrack recorders. In 1972 it introduced the first low-cost mass-produced multitrack recorders with Simul-Sync.  On March 4, 1973 TEAC merged the Tascam Corporation into TEAC Corporation of America (TCA). TEAC-Japan retains the exclusive worldwide rights to the TASCAM brand name for their professional audio related products.  Ironic that Tascam started as a company that did it's own research on products.

[Gutbucket]

Service manual can be found in the user manual archive section of this site, posted in multiple sections:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147560.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147559.0

I have a copy the full manual in a single PDF (~2MB) which I can email you if you like.

Switching between channels to adjust input gain with the pot is fast and easy using the channel selection buttons located under the meters.  It's more difficult in the dark by feel, but still doable.  Ganging adjacent channels together to adjust them all simultaneously with one knob while retaining there relative differernce settings is well worth having to select using the buttons IME, but I'm not a video guy.

The limiters (and low-cut) are implemented post ADC, so presumably they will not prevent clipping the analog input stage or converter unless there is a feed-back loop to the analog stage which isn't indicated.   There are circuit diagrams showing that in the service manual as well as a useful diagram showing levels though the system.

I use the Tascam snug cover which prevents accidental movement of the switches on top, but I do always make an effor to double check them before recording.  The top switches can be set to be locked out seperately from the front swtiches if desired, but I don't use that feature.

The short story on external battery powering seems to be not to use a supply that self-senses voltage output needs, but is either single output voltage only or hard-switched.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

1973, the time Tascam merged with Teac, was more or less the time I started in the film business.

In those times Teac was more known than Tascam, at least in the music audio circles, due to their reel tape-recorders.

Only much later did the name Tascam started to appear.

In the '80s Teac went into other areas, always in home audio, and Tascam launched their 1/2" multi-track tape-recorders, which I never used but made the Tascam name widespread for pro quality products.

Nowadays, AFAIK, the name Teac has dropped below Tascam's, as Teac Professional.  Tascam is all over the place.

I do own a Tascam DR-07, BTW, which I have been using for backup audio on my video doc setups. But when I use multiple mics, I output audio from the external recorder or the mixer to the video camera.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Service manual can be found in the user manual archive section of this site, posted in multiple sections:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147560.0
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147559.0

I have a copy the full manual in a single PDF (~2MB) which I can email you if you like.

Unfortunately the most important part, the schematic, is not there anymore. Perhaps you can e-mail me that part?

One thing I would like to do is to compare the input with the DR-60's.

Switching between channels to adjust input gain with the pot is fast and easy using the channel selection buttons located under the meters.  It's more difficult in the dark by feel, but still doable.  Ganging adjacent channels together to adjust them all simultaneously with one knob while retaining there relative differernce settings is well worth having to select using the buttons IME, but I'm not a video guy.

What's a video guy? 

As I haven't yet handled a DR-680 there's little I can say. Ganging all together sounds like a good option too. 

The limiters are implemented post ADC, so they will not prevent clipping the analog input stage or converter.   There are circuit diagrams showing that in the service manual as well as a useful diagram showing levels though the system.

That's not good. I think that was mentioned here when the 680 was released, and it did seem like Tascam missed the whole of limiting doing that.

On their comparison list, Tascam does specify all their units having limiters, but I wonder if it's also implemented after the converter on the PS82.

I use the Tascam snug cover which prevents accidental movement of the switches on top, but I do always make an effor to double check them before recording.  The top switches can be set to be locked out seperately from the front swtiches if desired, but I don't use that feature.

The Tascam CS-DR680 seems properly designed. Is that the one you have? There's a Portabrace too. You need a case that can open the top, preferably transparent, like the one that was used on the Shure FP-33, where the battery door and some switches were on top.

The short story on external battery powering seems to be not to use a supply that self-senses voltage output needs, but is either single output voltage only or hard-switched.

What I meant was something like this:

http://www.batteryspace.com/custom-nimh-battery-flat-pack-12v-2200mah-10xaa-with-2a-polyswitch-and-thermostat.aspx

[lukpac]

In your opinion.  IF I ever want to find out some knowledge about something I take the time to do the research myself.  then I might ask some questions.  Everything you would want to know about the issue a multitude of people have had...pro and con...is all here in those pages it's just that easy.  If you don't want to bother reading them............

There's a lot of information in these threads, but there's also a lot of random chatter. Finding the key information within dozens of pages of posts isn't always easy.

If somebody doesn't want to chime in when somebody asks a question, that's their prerogative, but it's pretty absurd to claim the person asking the question isn't showing respect. Don't want to help them? Don't help them. But often people who have "been there" can give an overview and easily point to the more relevant information. Asking questions is part of doing research.

[Gutbucket]

Ganging all together sounds like a good option too.

You can also gang more than one group, as long as each group contains adjacent channels.

The Tascam CS-DR680 seems properly designed. Is that the one you have? There's a Portabrace too. You need a case that can open the top, preferably transparent, like the one that was used on the Shure FP-33, where the battery door and some switches were on top.

 

Yes, it was included as a package deal when I bought the recorder, it's a protective case only, except for the storage pocket on top, but is well designed and allows access to everything including the battery compartment on the bottom.  It had a clear front cover and the top flap covers that.  I keep the protective front flap tucked under the top (not designed to do that but it velcros in place) and the top flap is then easily lifted without velcro rip noise, or folded around the back and underneath out of the way entirely.  I put the whole thing in a larger recording bag containing cables and battery for use.

Can't guarantee anything but that battery pack you linked should be okay, you may want higher capacity though.