Topic: opera taping

[boolz]

I'm a brand new taper with some brand new gear (Edirol R09HR), and it turns out that my very first taping opportunity is going to be an opera, so I'm going to try it. Not my usual thing, but I'd still like to see how it goes. So I'm looking for advice. It'll be stealth, so not much chance for trial and error. Rest of my gear: cardioid mics and a batt box (I thought I had my omni's with me, too, but messed up in packing). I'll be sitting a few seats off center, about 10-20 ft from the orchestra pit. The show is unamplified (except by the hall itself), and will vary in volume from your typical full orchestra sound down to single unaccompanied voice, and everything in between.

So, given that, I'm assuming (with a lot of ignorance mixed in) that I should tape with ACG on. Is that right? If so, would you assume low or high?

I'm also wondering whether there is any advantage to using the batt box, or whether it makes sense just to do mic in using the plug-in power of the recorder.

As you can see, my understanding of the whole enterprise is pretty limited, so feel free to give painfully obvious answers.

Also, for future reference, am I right in understanding that for shows like this (acoustic, wide volume range including very quiet, etc) that it would make sense to add a pre-amp to my gear? Too late for this show, but I'm taping some acoustic blues in a few weeks and will do more of that down the road.

Thanks for any tips

[audBall]

What opera? 

It's amazing to witness the power of their voices with no reinforcement whatsoever. 

It might not hurt to run a pre with some gain, but the dynamics of an opera can be quite dramatic, so I'd err on the lower side of the gain spectrum.

It sounds like you'll probably be in a good enough area to pickup the orchestra quite well while also getting a strong pickup of the voices.  It can be jawdropping how well the voices carry to the back of the hall. 


edit-grammar

[Dede2002]

I'm a brand new taper with some brand new gear (Edirol R09HR), and it turns out that my very first taping opportunity is going to be an opera, so I'm going to try it. Not my usual thing, but I'd still like to see how it goes. So I'm looking for advice. It'll be stealth, so not much chance for trial and error. Rest of my gear: cardioid mics and a batt box (I thought I had my omni's with me, too, but messed up in packing). I'll be sitting a few seats off center, about 10-20 ft from the orchestra pit. The show is unamplified (except by the hall itself), and will vary in volume from your typical full orchestra sound down to single unaccompanied voice, and everything in between.

So, given that, I'm assuming (with a lot of ignorance mixed in) that I should tape with ACG on. Is that right? If so, would you assume low or high?

I'm also wondering whether there is any advantage to using the batt box, or whether it makes sense just to do mic in using the plug-in power of the recorder.

As you can see, my understanding of the whole enterprise is pretty limited, so feel free to give painfully obvious answers.

Also, for future reference, am I right in understanding that for shows like this (acoustic, wide volume range including very quiet, etc) that it would make sense to add a pre-amp to my gear? Too late for this show, but I'm taping some acoustic blues in a few weeks and will do more of that down the road.

Thanks for any tips

Hello,

Stay away from the ACG feature.It´s OK for lectures and speech, not for live music.
Opera, like classic music concerts, is quite tricky to tape and you know why: you can go from very low to very loud volume. Try and error, I guess. If this piece starts with loud volume, all you have to do is set your levels to -12db and enjoy. You can always boost the volume on post.
I'd take the bb if I was you. You sure going to have very loud passages. The BB will make sure you mics works with their maximum capability in handling high SPL.
Hope that helps 

[boojum]

The earlier posters have it right: no AGC (Auto Gain Control), record at a low level, you can always raise it in post, and use that battery box.  You are not going to get a recording that Delos will want to buy, but you will have a good recording that you can enjoy for years.

FWIW, the Met forbids recording.  When they moved from 34th Street to Lincoln Center that broadcasting companies came in and took down their mics.  When they were all done a single, lone mic hung down form the ceiling.  No one knew how long it had been there - years - or who hung it.   

[boolz]

FWIW, the Met forbids recording.  When they moved from 34th Street to Lincoln Center that broadcasting companies came in and took down their mics.  When they were all done a single, lone mic hung down form the ceiling.  No one knew how long it had been there - years - or who hung it.   

Clearly Leroux had it wrong: the Phantom of the Opera was a taper.

Thanks for all the tips everyone. I'll try the clapping thing and post more Q's if they come up before the show (tomorrow). I hope to get something good, but mostly I want to get my feet with my edirol, get some stealth logistics worked out and, generally, get over some jitters about the whole thing. I'll post about the show when I've made it out alive with all my gear in tact. Don't want to jinx things.

[mr qpl]

record at a low level, you can always raise it in post,

Don't agree with this here. I'd record to voice volume, reduce the clapping and cheering in post. I have a bunch of experience in running omni's for classical/opera and this is the best way to record it, IMO

[easy jim]

Set your levels at home to a single sharp clap about 2'->3' from the mics; followed by a series of sharp claps.  Contain the claps at the point of just setting off the peak light.
The audience, in all likeliness, will be the major dynamic factor. So setting your levels at home, if stealthing, can be useful.

^ excellent advice

record at a low level, you can always raise it in post,

Don't agree with this here. I'd record to voice volume, reduce the clapping and cheering in post. I have a bunch of experience in running omni's for classical/opera and this is the best way to record it, IMO

   well, go ahead and do it that way if you don't mind clipping and have an audio restoration program like iZotope RX to run a de-clipping tool.  I would never do it that way if I could not watch and adjust levels, and this would clearly not be that kind of situation.

The beauty of 24bit these days is precisely the ability to raise levels in post quite a bit without also adding more noise to the normalized ultimate file.  By setting levels to voice volume, all it takes is one person near you clapping at a bad time during the music, or one loud enough vocal shriek from the soloist to clip and mess up the recording.

[Dede2002]

The beauty of 24bit these days is precisely the ability to raise levels in post quite a bit without also adding more noise to the normalized ultimate file.  By setting levels to voice volume, all it takes is one person near you clapping at a bad time during the music, or one loud enough vocal shriek from the soloist to clip and mess up the recording.

Second that

[boolz]

I'd like to report back on my virgin taping effort, and get some feedback, if anyone is interested.

This was the Santa Fe Opera production of Handel's Radamisto. Being a baroque opera in a modern grand opera hall, I was hoping that they'd take a baroque approach to the orchestration (smaller, lighter band) but that it would carry in the hall. They did, and it did.

First, the good news:
1. Given the total ban on taping there, I was pleased that logistics went well: it was easy to do in a way that didn't interfere with my own ability to just listen to the concert and it was totally undetectable by anyone around me, so didn't bother them either. I kept the recorder in my evening bag, and could operate it by feel, after the first initial peek at levels. So, fun to do the taping, but the actual live music experience was as good as ever, too. I didn't expect that.

2. To my ears, the sound of the music itself is really good. When it's full blast orchestra and full company of singers (only 6 in this show), you hear everything. When it's just a solo singer with a spare continuo accompaniment, you likewise can hear everything. I was especially interested in this, because I really like theorbo and wanted that to come through. It did.

3. Audience was not an interference. Obviously, nobody is going to be obnoxious in this kind of show, but also people were unusually healthy, just the odd cough in one or two places. And the clapping, cheering came out in balance to everything else.

Neutral news:
1. All the discussion about levels ended up being moot. The show started with almost full orchestra (minus only timpani), and yet at highest setting, the levels were nowhere close to peeking. I can't see that that matters, because I can boost volume as much as I need (modulo the bad news I'm getting to). I guess unamplified, with a small band (~20 people) it's just not going to be that loud, no matter what? Or was there something else I should have been doing?

Bad news:
Not much bad news, but what there is is really bad. I totally forgot to take wind into account. This venue is covered roof, but open on the sides and back of stage. Wind was light but noticable. That is, it wasn't audible to my ears, but strong enough to be annoying as it blew my hair into my face. On the recording, there is a consistently reoccuring noise that I'm assuming is wind. My mics were totally bare, not even the little foam cover thing they should have come with. This is sheer newbie stupidity on my part. My cards were mistakenly shipped with only one of those things and I never got around to getting that straightened out. I'd planned to use my omni's which have those covers and clips, but forgot to pack them. I spent time rigging up clips for my cards, but didn't think about the wind shield issue at all.

It's too bad, because I think otherwise, this would have been a very good tape, at least for a virgin effort. On the other hand, I saw this mainly as a learning effort, and it certainly was that. I've trimmed out a couple of little bits for people to listen to. I've done some amplification (in audacity) and a little fade out, but otherwise not edited. If anyone has tips for getting rid of what I assume is wind noise, let me know. Mostly for future reference - I don't know that I want to invest a lot of time in editing this particular gig, given that it's not one I'd share, anyway. If anyone thinks what I'm hearing as wind is some other problem, please let me know that, especially.

Anyway some short samples (cardioid mics, batt box, Edirol R09HR)

- an example of full orchestra and full cast leading up to final applause

http://puggocking.com/audio/radamisto/sample/RadIII-finis.wav
http://puggocking.com/audio/radamisto/sample/RadIII-finis.mp3

- and an example of solo voice (David Daniels) with a variety of accompaniment

http://puggocking.com/audio/radamisto/sample/RadIII-Daniels-solo.wav
http://puggocking.com/audio/radamisto/sample/RadIII-Daniels-solo.mp3

Again, I'd welcome any comments, and thank everyone for the input so far in any case.

[Dede2002]

Anyway some short samples (cardioid mics, batt box, Edirol R09HR)
Again, I'd welcome any comments, and thank everyone for the input so far in any case.

Hello,

Just curious. What mic are you using?
Thanks 

[boolz]

Just curious. What mic are you using?

Thanks for asking. I used these: SP-CMC-22. Only, as I said above, stupidly without windscreens. These are mics I bought a year ago, long before getting a recorder, so not much thought went into them. I thought I'd use them with my iPod recorder, but never did.

I'm thinking I may want to invest in better mics, though. Do you think mic quality/type may be an issue, either with the (what I'm thinking is) wind noise, or with the fact that it was persistently low volume?

[Unitmonster]

the rumbling noise is 100% wind noise.  Easily resolved with a decent pair of windscreens.  Aside from that you may want to play aroudn with audio editing software to get the levels up to a better volume.  I'm a bit surprised that you had the unit maxed and those were your levels actually. uBut I don't know your particular gear well enough to suggest solutions.

Personally I'd hang on to those mics a bit more before starting to upgrade. I think under the right conditions you'll be quite pleased with the results.

[boolz]

the rumbling noise is 100% wind noise.  Easily resolved with a decent pair of windscreens.  Aside from that you may want to play aroudn with audio editing software to get the levels up to a better volume.  I'm a bit surprised that you had the unit maxed and those were your levels actually. uBut I don't know your particular gear well enough to suggest solutions.

Personally I'd hang on to those mics a bit more before starting to upgrade. I think under the right conditions you'll be quite pleased with the results.

Thanks for the input, esp. confirming my assumptions about the wind noise. I've tried boosting the volume more, but just really can't stand the wind noise enough for it to be enjoyable listening.

The issue of the original levels is what's got me most curious now. I'll be taping some amplified things in the next couple of weeks, but may also seek out another classical gig to compare. Still wondering if I should have used the auto gain feature after all.

[Unitmonster]

nope. Rule #1 in the taping bible is no AGC. Honestly, it'll sound like crap.

[boojum]

AGC is for recording meetings.  Cardioids are harder to windproof that omni's.  But that foam cover is what is needed.  Do not leave home without them.