Topic: Better to add gain before or after?

[Brennan]

I've been annoyed by this for a while now. I have the Church stc-9000 preamp. I usually keep it at +10 with the knob up about 80%. My levels don't ever hit high enough though. I dont know if I should be turning it up more on the pre, or if that will introduce a lot of hiss. When I normalize, my levels have to be boosted a good amount which results in hiss! argh..so is it a bad idea to boost the pre a lot or is there a negligible hiss / noise differance? Thanks for any tips!

[rhinowing]

i'd make sure you're running 24 bit and just boost the levels in post

[Belexes]

Looking at your sig file:

Buy a large SD card and run 24 bit with the pre at max and recorder at unity.  If you don't then get at least to -12 dB, then consider the 9100 pre which offers you an additional 10 dB of gain.

[runonce]

Im doubting bit depth is relevant.

Sounds like you have the recorder clamped down too much...(or just arent getting enough gain from the pre and have the recorder levels jacked.)

Either of those could result in a high S/N...

Agree with the suggestion to run unity and drive the recorder with the pre output. Dont start adding gain at the recorder until the preamp runs out of headroom.

[su6oxone]

The CA pres add clean gain from my experience, so I would do what the others have suggested and crank up the pre until you hit around -6dB or so peaks and then normalize in post. 

[stevetoney]

Im doubting bit depth is relevant.

Actually, bit depth is extremely relevant, although it might not be the only solution to the problem stated by the OP. 

While the points being made in this thread about headroom and getting above the noise floor are all relevant, one of the biggest advances in recording technology in terms of ensuring success in the end is 24bit technology.

There are plenty of threads in ts.com history to explain the technical reasons for this, but in practical application what happens is that you can run your recordings with FAR more headroom in 24bit without losing any sound fidelity.  In 16bit, you need to run as 'hot' as possible (having levels close to peaking without actually peaking) because that provided the best sounding recording and the best dynamic range. 

99% of people using 24bit will record with LOTS of headroom...leaving their levels so they only peak somewhere between -6db and -12db...then they will bump their levels in post. 

In 24bit, doing it this way virtually eliminates the chance of peaking during the show and results in little or no loss in sound quality.

I basically agree with what everyone else has said, but here's my suggestions on what you should do...

1)  Your sig says you're running 16/44.1 with an R-09 and the reason you're not running 24bit is the cost of an SD card.  Bone up and buy an SD card.  Heck, they cost $10 - $15 for an 4GB card which gives you 4 hours at 24/48...how much are you paying to get into the gig? 

2) Set your R-09 to record at 24/48

3) Read up in the history of TS.com and figure out where unity gain is on your R-09.  Set your R-09 there...don't go any higher than this setting EVER.

4) During the show, adjust the gain on the preamp upward until the lights say you can't go any higher.

5) Thats the highest levels you should go for...going higher will result in clipping either from the preamp (if you turn the gain up on the preamp higher) or from the R-09 (if you turn the gain on the R-09 higher).  However, even if your levels are low (even as low as -20db can be OK), since you're recording in 24/48 you'll be getting the goods.

6) Bump levels in post...your sound should be clean.

7)  If your sound isn't clean using the above sequence, email Chris Church with details...he'll tell you what your problem is because you might have another problem...something else is going on.

Option:  Use Chris's upgrade program and mail in your 9000 for a 9100 upgrade for the upgrade price...I think $90.

[Scooter123]

For my 09, Unity is about 45. 

[3-Fan]

The Church 9000 should always be run with the knob at full.  This is not a variable pot gain like the 9100.  The knob is only a volume control.  Even if the knob is at 1/2, the recorder will still be seeing the full gain structure. 

I learned this the hard way after I got the dreaded sticks of butter.

[StuStu]

Im doubting bit depth is relevant.

Sounds like you have the recorder clamped down too much...(or just arent getting enough gain from the pre and have the recorder levels jacked.)

Either of those could result in a high S/N...

Agree with the suggestion to run unity and drive the recorder with the pre output. Dont start adding gain at the recorder until the preamp runs out of headroom.

Bit depth is VERY relevant. Your not running an analog tape deck or dat deck that you need to push the limits. Take advantage of the 24 bit headroom you have.   

[rhinowing]

unity on the original r-09 should be 8. not sure about the HR