Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?  (Read 10672 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline evilchris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 943
  • Gender: Male
  • Audio, ergo sum.
    • dimwell.net
24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« on: March 21, 2008, 05:13:20 PM »
OK ... I understand the gains of 24-bit over 16-bit (greater dynamic range), but I don't see the advantage of 48kHz over 44.1kHz.

All of my listening is exclusively on my iPod or from CD audio, so would it make sense for me to stick to 44.1 for the sampling rate?  Or is the jump to 48 enough to outweight the potential rounding errors in the dithering process?

Thanks.
nothing > nada > R-09

Offline KLowe

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
  • Gender: Male
  • CrossFit....check you ego at the door
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 05:16:35 PM »
I stick with 44.1

If my ears could hear the extra 3.9k samples....then I'd be superman

--I guess there is some signal to noise explanation though....buy my home stereo sucks...so I'd never know the diff.  And is one less step to have to do in post production.
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

Offline evilchris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 943
  • Gender: Male
  • Audio, ergo sum.
    • dimwell.net
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 05:19:10 PM »
I thought SNR was a function of bit depth?

 ???
nothing > nada > R-09

Offline KLowe

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
  • Gender: Male
  • CrossFit....check you ego at the door
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 05:21:02 PM »
I thought SNR was a function of bit depth?

 ???
ummmmmmm.....yeah..it is.  I really have no clue as to what I'm talking about..

OK...more samples equal more "detail" of the music.
harmonics, subharmonics...etc.

The 16-bit/44.1kHz technology used for Redbook Standard (commercial) CDs cannot capture or convey enough audio detail in the transients, harmonics and sub-harmonics, the ambiance (room noise, air noise) etc., that creates the full, warm, sweet sound we are used to hearing in a live situation. That is why many people complain of CD recordings that sound harsh or brittle or missing the "room" sound. Recording at 24-bit/96kHz allows us to capture a world of sounds in the 10kHz-20kHz range that include all those extra transients

Paging DSatz......
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 05:25:11 PM by KLowe »
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

Offline evilchris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 943
  • Gender: Male
  • Audio, ergo sum.
    • dimwell.net
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 05:24:58 PM »
I really have no clue as to what I'm talking about..

haha ... +t for being able to admit that.  :P
nothing > nada > R-09

Offline George2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 05:31:19 PM »
Use 48k when recording audio for video, otherwise stick to 44.1k
Sennheiser 418s>SDMixPre-D>RO9HR
Beyer MC930>Fostex FM3>NagraSD
Couple of Schoeps CMT441 too.

Offline philR

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5820
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 05:32:15 PM »
Use 48k when recording audio for video, otherwise stick to 44.1k

why's that?
Neumann AK40 > LC3KA > KM100 > V2 > 744t

Offline Gordon

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11786
  • Gender: Male
    • my list
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 05:42:15 PM »
Use 48k when recording audio for video, otherwise stick to 44.1k

why's that?


audio on a dvd HAS to be 48 or 96.
Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II @ 32/48

https://archive.org/details/fav-gordonlw

https://archive.org/details/teamdirtysouth

Offline philR

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5820
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 05:46:23 PM »
Use 48k when recording audio for video, otherwise stick to 44.1k

why's that?


audio on a dvd HAS to be 48 or 96.

ah, did not know that.
Neumann AK40 > LC3KA > KM100 > V2 > 744t

Offline evilchris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 943
  • Gender: Male
  • Audio, ergo sum.
    • dimwell.net
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 05:53:59 PM »
Use 48k when recording audio for video, otherwise stick to 44.1k

audio on a dvd HAS to be 48 or 96.

... I did not know that.  I always thought that DVD could do 44.1k.

Thanks and +t!  :)

Sounds like 24/44.1 is where it's at for audio.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 06:01:59 PM by evilchris »
nothing > nada > R-09

Offline aegert

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 321
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 06:00:43 PM »
THis is the big argument!

A
B&k 4022's > Grace Lunatec V3 > Self Built  Neutrik/ Mogami XLR to TRS > Korg MR1000

Schoeps CMT44's > Self Built Neutrik/ Tuchel 2 ch Snake > Switchcraft Phantom to T-power Adapters > Grace Lunatec V3 > Sound Devices 722

www.motb.org

The bus came by and I got on....

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 06:58:28 PM »
Use 48k when recording audio for video, otherwise stick to 44.1k

audio on a dvd HAS to be 48 or 96.

... I did not know that.  I always thought that DVD could do 44.1k.

Thanks and +t!  :)

Sounds like 24/44.1 is where it's at for audio.

you can still burn 24/44.1k DVD-Audio discs tho! or is that DVD-Video ???
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 09:14:34 PM »
KLowe, first of all there are no such things as subharmonics. That's a holdover from 17th century music theory. They were a fantasy all along and they simply don't exist. Difference tones, sure, but subharmonics, no.

Second, transients don't put any special strain on a digital recording system; electrons just don't have enough mass or inertia. If a system's frequency response covers the audible range and if it can handle a full-scale sine wave at the top of that range without clipping or spewing crap all over the spectrum from slew rate limiting, then it can handle the audible part of any transient you care to throw at it. Anything with a rise time faster than the signal I just described is putting out energy above the Nyquist limit by definition--so yes, when you retrieve that signal it won't look the way it did originally, but there's no reason for it not to sound identical.

That's not even a digital issue; it's just as true for analog tape and vinyl LPs, which have high-frequency limits, too. You can't cut a 2 kHz square wave on an LP that will look anything like a square wave when you play it back, but so what? Music still sounds right on a good system and wrong on a crummy one. That's as true for 16/44.1 digital as it is for analog tape, records, or radio. There are examples of purely analog systems that have audible and measurable problems in this area, and there are examples of digital systems that have no audible or measurable problems in this area.

Lots of people seem to get confused about transients. It's important for the audio circuitry to do either (or both) of two things: (1) cleanly filter out any signal components that are so high in frequency that we can't hear them, and/or (2) follow the original signal through all its rapid twists and turns. In terms of human audibility, either approach is precisely as good as the other, and they can be combined nicely, too (e.g. a circuit preceded by a clean, simple low-order low-pass filter at, say, 40 kHz can also be designed with a moderately high slew rate--but then it doesn't need to be extremely high, since the filter guarantees that nothing much above 40 kHz will ever have to go through it).


> The 16-bit/44.1kHz technology used for Redbook Standard (commercial) CDs cannot capture or convey enough audio detail in the transients, harmonics and sub-harmonics, the ambiance (room noise, air noise) etc., that creates the full, warm, sweet sound we are used to hearing in a live situation. That is why many people complain of CD recordings that sound harsh or brittle or missing the "room" sound. Recording at 24-bit/96kHz allows us to capture a world of sounds in the 10kHz-20kHz range that include all those extra transients

I can't agree with a single thing in that whole remarkable statement, sorry.

--best regards
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 09:26:12 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Dede2002

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 09:28:03 PM »
KLowe, first of all there are no such things as subharmonics. That's a holdover from 17th century music theory. They were a fantasy all along and they simply don't exist. Difference tones, sure, but subharmonics, no.

Second, transients don't put any special strain on a digital recording system; electrons just don't have enough mass or inertia. If a system's frequency response covers the audible range and if it can handle a full-scale sine wave at the top of that range without clipping or spewing crap all over the spectrum from slew rate limiting, then it can handle the audible part of any transient you care to throw at it. Anything with a rise time faster than the signal I just described is putting out energy above the Nyquist limit by definition--so yes, when you retrieve that signal it won't look the way it did originally, but there's no reason for it not to sound identical.

That's not even a digital issue; it's just as true for analog tape and vinyl LPs, which have high-frequency limits, too. You can't cut a 2 kHz square wave on an LP that will look anything like a square wave when you play it back, but so what? Music still sounds right on a good system and wrong on a crummy one. That's as true for 16/44.1 digital as it is for analog tape, records, or radio. There are examples of purely analog systems that have audible and measurable problems in this area, and there are examples of digital systems that have no audible or measurable problems in this area.

Lots of people seem to get confused about transients. It's important for the audio circuitry to do either (or both) of two things: (1) filter out any signal components that are so high in frequency that we can't hear them, and/or (2) follow the original signal through all its rapid twists and turns. In terms of human audibility, either approach is precisely as good as the other, and they can be combined nicely, too (e.g. a circuit preceded by a clean, simple low-order low-pass filter at, say, 40 kHz can also be designed with a moderately high slew rate--but then it doesn't need to be extremely high, since the filter guarantees that nothing much above 40 kHz will ever have to go through it).


> The 16-bit/44.1kHz technology used for Redbook Standard (commercial) CDs cannot capture or convey enough audio detail in the transients, harmonics and sub-harmonics, the ambiance (room noise, air noise) etc., that creates the full, warm, sweet sound we are used to hearing in a live situation. That is why many people complain of CD recordings that sound harsh or brittle or missing the "room" sound. Recording at 24-bit/96kHz allows us to capture a world of sounds in the 10kHz-20kHz range that include all those extra transients

I can't agree with a single thing in that whole remarkable statement, sorry.

--best regards

I'm only happy when I'm learning something. DStaz, thanks for another great post. ;)
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline KLowe

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
  • Gender: Male
  • CrossFit....check you ego at the door
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 09:29:48 PM »


> The 16-bit/44.1kHz technology used for Redbook Standard (commercial) CDs cannot capture or convey enough audio detail in the transients, harmonics and sub-harmonics, the ambiance (room noise, air noise) etc., that creates the full, warm, sweet sound we are used to hearing in a live situation. That is why many people complain of CD recordings that sound harsh or brittle or missing the "room" sound. Recording at 24-bit/96kHz allows us to capture a world of sounds in the 10kHz-20kHz range that include all those extra transients

I can't agree with a single thing in that whole remarkable statement, sorry.

--best regards

Yeah...I just found that on a quick google search of "96khz recording advantage".  This is why I "paged" you earlier  ;)

As always...thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

KLowe
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2008, 09:53:28 PM »
That said ... there are potential technical advantages to sampling rates above 44.1 kHz--but not for the reasons claimed in that holy brick of a nonsense paragraph quoted above.

Let me recommend an AES paper called "Anti-alias and anti-image filtering: The benefits of 96kHz sampling rate formats for those who cannot hear above 20kHz" by the late Julian Dunn. That and several other well-written papers on related topics are indexed on http://www.nanophon.com/audio/ .

Despite this, I continue to record at 44.1 and I don't find that it limits my ability to get a good sound. There are plenty of perfectly gorgeous CD recordings out there. Logically, if there's even one good sounding 16-bit, 44.1 kHz recording in the entire world, then all the trash talk has been proved false once and for all. (Which, in my opinion, happened 25+ years ago already.)

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline KLowe

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
  • Gender: Male
  • CrossFit....check you ego at the door
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2008, 10:00:06 PM »
That said ... there are potential technical advantages to sampling rates above 44.1 kHz--but not for the reasons claimed in that holy brick of a nonsense paragraph quoted above.

Let me recommend an AES paper called "Anti-alias and anti-image filtering: The benefits of 96kHz sampling rate formats for those who cannot hear above 20kHz" by the late Julian Dunn. That and several other well-written papers on related topics are indexed on http://www.nanophon.com/audio/ .

Despite this, I continue to record at 44.1 and I don't find that it limits my ability to get a good sound. There are plenty of perfectly gorgeous CD recordings out there. Logically, if there's even one good sounding 16-bit, 44.1 kHz recording in the entire world, then all the trash talk has been proved false once and for all. (Which, in my opinion, happened 25+ years ago already.)

--best regards

but....you do gotta admit that running at 24 sure is a bonus for the lazy taper (ie...set levels and forget).

Thanks DSatz....

Going to pour another glass of wine and do some reading  ;)
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2008, 12:08:44 AM »
> you do gotta admit that running at 24 sure is a bonus for the lazy taper (ie...set levels and forget).

Not just for the lazy taper--also for the professional, perfectionist taper who has to deliver a 16-bit CD to the customer. I'm very fond of 24-bit recording because I can set my levels conservatively at the concert, not have to worry about overload or excess noise, and then I can redither and reduce to 16-bit at just the right peak level.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline 612

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8183
  • Minneapolis, MN
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2008, 07:37:53 AM »
Great thread. thanks all.
Empty's Tapes & My recordings on the LMA

"Keep active, stay positive..." - a wise man

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10260
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2008, 08:08:42 AM »
same.
44.1 for me.  if I go higher its 88.2.

the "uuber sample rates" are fun to play with but are not worth the storage space used or hassle in post to deal with. 
88.2 gives me the concept of "twice is nice" for my subjective consciousness to chew on when listening to the DVD-A copy.
but it also gives me a quick and dirty resample to redbook, which is 99.9999% of my listening.

Offline Jammin72

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 841
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2008, 09:39:00 AM »
Between the two, I like 24/48 simply because CD is a dead medium for me and I don't currently own a DVD-Audio player.  I can archive files at 24/48, use Audio DVD Creator to make a 24/48 Disc that will play back on any DVD Player I own, and process away for the files that end up on my iPod.  For the good ones in most cases I'd rather not have any 32bit floating point processing done to my signal if I can help it, most DAW's and quick tweaks seem to add some sort of noise or monkey with the signal in some way, at best it's a compromise.  I'm certain that if I were more skilled in that area or had access to a better processing engines/gear It would not be as much of an issue.

I'm still going to run some 24/96 where I think the sound may warrant "going for broke".  ;D
Yes, but what do you HEAR?

Offline Gordon

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11786
  • Gender: Male
    • my list
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2008, 11:14:38 AM »
Use 48k when recording audio for video, otherwise stick to 44.1k

audio on a dvd HAS to be 48 or 96.

... I did not know that.  I always thought that DVD could do 44.1k.

Thanks and +t!  :)

Sounds like 24/44.1 is where it's at for audio.

you can still burn 24/44.1k DVD-Audio discs tho! or is that DVD-Video ???


I'm talking about dvd video
Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II @ 32/48

https://archive.org/details/fav-gordonlw

https://archive.org/details/teamdirtysouth

Offline Petrus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 126
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2008, 03:37:04 PM »
I found a nicely done 16/44 versus 24/96 test file at http://hosted.filefront.com/Jullepoika/

It is a continuous 14 minute 24/96 audio file cut in 30 second segments, some or them 16/44.1 resolution, others original 24/96 "Linn studio master" quality. The idea is to pick out the difference just by listening. No comparators etc needed, just a 24/96 capable system. There are two files, a 470 MB .WAV and a .TXT explaning the procedure used in making the file. Try it!

Offline grtphl

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 570
  • Gender: Male
  • deadheadynugs
    • Free Live Music Archive - daja@dayjay
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2008, 05:15:10 PM »
anyone have a track that alternates between 16/44.1 and and 24/96 sources a few times throughout playback?

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2008, 06:53:16 PM »
gratephul, if the material in an A/B comparison of this type was recorded through one input filter for the 44.1 kHz recording and a different filter for 96 kHz, then it's a comparison of two different filters as much as it is a comparison of two different sampling rates, no?

I'd like to hear an A/B comparison between two recordings made at different sampling rates, but with the same input filters being used for both. That would be a test of the sampling rates, not the filters.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Dede2002

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2008, 08:08:45 PM »
That said ... there are potential technical advantages to sampling rates above 44.1 kHz--but not for the reasons claimed in that holy brick of a nonsense paragraph quoted above.

Let me recommend an AES paper called "Anti-alias and anti-image filtering: The benefits of 96kHz sampling rate formats for those who cannot hear above 20kHz" by the late Julian Dunn. That and several other well-written papers on related topics are indexed on http://www.nanophon.com/audio/ .

Despite this, I continue to record at 44.1 and I don't find that it limits my ability to get a good sound. There are plenty of perfectly gorgeous CD recordings out there. Logically, if there's even one good sounding 16-bit, 44.1 kHz recording in the entire world, then all the trash talk has been proved false once and for all. (Which, in my opinion, happened 25+ years ago already.)

--best regards

Thanks for the www.nanophon.com link ;). Awesome reading. (I guess this post is going to cost me another ticket. Minus 7 tickets since yesterday...) ::)
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline Petrus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 126
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2008, 04:13:53 AM »
anyone have a track that alternates between 16/44.1 and and 24/96 sources a few times throughout playback?

The file I mentioned does just that. Originally a 24/96 file, but some 30 second sections are resampled to 16/44.1. The idea is to try to hear where the material is 16/44 and where 24/96. Of course the file format is 24/96 to make it possible to play is as one file, but the actual resolution in places is 16/44.1.

I can not hear any difference, not even the cuts.

When downloading it download also the small explanation .txt file.

Offline svenkid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3564
  • Gender: Male
  • Take Time to Listen!
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2008, 05:12:27 AM »
lol, I have many 16/44 flac dvd-audio discs.
Seriously, the band makes the music. Tapers just point mics in the right direction and hit "record".

That's good to hear!  The last patcher I had complained about my AKGs, fluffed schoeps for about 15 minutes, stayed patched in, and farted on me all night long.
rig: Neuman u89s > Lunatec V3 > MT(24)/JB3(16)
http://db.etree.org/svenkid

Um, in my room, one seam is a little off and I stare at it constantly. It's, like, destroying me.

Offline Dede2002

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2008, 07:39:25 PM »
That said ... there are potential technical advantages to sampling rates above 44.1 kHz--but not for the reasons claimed in that holy brick of a nonsense paragraph quoted above.

Let me recommend an AES paper called "Anti-alias and anti-image filtering: The benefits of 96kHz sampling rate formats for those who cannot hear above 20kHz" by the late Julian Dunn. That and several other well-written papers on related topics are indexed on http://www.nanophon.com/audio/ .

Despite this, I continue to record at 44.1 and I don't find that it limits my ability to get a good sound. There are plenty of perfectly gorgeous CD recordings out there. Logically, if there's even one good sounding 16-bit, 44.1 kHz recording in the entire world, then all the trash talk has been proved false once and for all. (Which, in my opinion, happened 25+ years ago already.)

--best regards

Thanks for the www.nanophon.com link ;). Awesome reading. (I guess this post is going to cost me another ticket. Minus 7 tickets since yesterday...) ::)


Thanks everyone ;).Very kind of you.
Mics..........................SP-CMC-8, HLSC-1 and HLSO-MICRO
BB and Preamps........MM Micro bb / MM Custom Elite bb / Church 9100
                              
Recorders...................Tascam DR-100MKIII, Marantz PMD 620 MKII, Edirol R-09

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1016
    • digifish music
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2008, 02:07:34 AM »
Here's a very interesting summary of 16 vs 24 bit recording of low level sources...with examples

http://www.uwm.edu/~type/audio-reports/LowSaturation/LowFieldSaturation2.html

Make sure you read right to the end.

digifish
- What's this knob do?

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2008, 07:51:32 AM »
digifish, when digital audio was introduced to the general public in the early 1980s, there was a great deal of emphasis on making everyone into instant experts by explaining "how it works" down to a certain depth of understanding. Most journalists and other commentators relied on a certain stock set of images or metaphors to explain how it works. Part of that set was the idea that digital audio is recorded as a series of "stairstep" sample values.

It was remarkable at the time how often you would see almost the identical set of drawings in every article about digital audio--showing how a smoothly flowing analog signal would be reduced to a succession of evenly spaced stairsteps. That image has led to a number of suppositions and expectations which are not actually true of digital audio recording when correctly implemented and used. Just about everyone got the impression that if you were to hook up an oscilloscope to the output of a CD player, you would see these stairsteps, as if that's what its analog output looked like, instead of a the smoothly flowing analog signal which actually is there.

The author of the article that you referred us to is a very careful and intelligent writer, but like many other people in audio even today, he seems perhaps to be unaware of how digital audio recording actually works as a system, since he writes:

> (A) I had predicted that 16 bit quantization noise might be audible when recording in the quietest natural locations and I was wrong. It remains surprising to me that quantization noise is inaudible with the 16 bit file all the way down to levels producing -60dB peaks (or ~.1% saturation!) from the background sounds. One would think, as the bit "steps" are divided evenly across the 96dB total range, that resolution and performance would drop off faster than this.

It's to the author's great credit that he admits what his ears were telling him instead of clinging to what his belief system told him to expect. He explains the reasons for his expectation--and terms such as "bit 'steps'" and "resolution" are leftovers from the broken metaphor that I was talking about.

I have to get going now, but just to summarize--a properly dithered digital recording system doesn't have audible quantization noise as such, nor stairstep waveforms, nor increasing distortion at lower recorded levels (nor increased "resolution" at higher recorded levels), nor a floor threshold beneath which there is "digital deafness." It has a soft noise floor just like any analog medium; as low-level signals approach that noise floor they can go beneath it for as much as 10 dB or more and still be heard, just as in any analog medium. The audible character of that noise floor will depend on its statistical properties and its frequency curve just as with any analog medium.

All of the above is directly observable by anyone who cares to check it out. The persistence of beliefs to the contrary on all of the above statements is a testament to ... I don't know what, but I wish it would go away.

And even with the slight increase in the level of the noise floor that dither causes, 16-bit linear PCM (the system used on CDs) is 20+ dB quieter than the best analog tape recordings of the era in which the CD was introduced. Dolby and the others had to come up with advanced, new noise reduction algorithms such as Dolby SR so that analog tape at 15 or even 30 ips could reasonably compete.

For anyone who came up in the analog era (my favorite records as a child, e.g. Elvis Presley's "Hound Dog," were still 78s), 16-bit PCM gives an astoundingly wide dynamic range. The fact that it's in consumer hands now is a very big deal.

--best regards
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 07:56:55 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Kevin Straker

  • The Shogun of Easley
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2310
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2008, 08:56:33 AM »
I use Audio DVD creator to burn DVD-A discs, obviously. It requires either a 48 or 96khz file. It won't do 44.1. Since I started to actually listen to the discs in 24 bit format I use 24/48 for that reason. When I just had the intention of winding up with a CD product I used 24/44.1. The only reason I can see in your case to use a higher sampling rate is for future upgrades in the 24 bit playback realm. Looks like this was said already, but I'll leave it up anyways.
People on ludes should not drive...
J. Spicoli

mk4,mk21>kc5>cmc6>V3>SD722

Offline JasonSobel

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3327
  • Gender: Male
    • My show list
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2008, 09:10:03 AM »
I use Audio DVD creator to burn DVD-A discs, obviously. It requires either a 48 or 96khz file. It won't do 44.1. Since I started to actually listen to the discs in 24 bit format I use 24/48 for that reason. When I just had the intention of winding up with a CD product I used 24/44.1. The only reason I can see in your case to use a higher sampling rate is for future upgrades in the 24 bit playback realm. Looks like this was said already, but I'll leave it up anyways.

just to be clear, the "Audio DVD creator" program does not create DVD-Audio discs.  it creates DVD-Video discs, with the linear PCM as the audio portion.  the DVD-Video format allows for either 48 or 96 kHz sampling rate, while the DVD-Audio format is more flexible and allow for 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.  There is also reasonably priced (some of it is free) software to create DVD-A discs.  but then you need to make sure that your DVD player can handle the format.

Offline Kevin Straker

  • The Shogun of Easley
  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2310
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2008, 09:25:52 AM »
I use Audio DVD creator to burn DVD-A discs, obviously. It requires either a 48 or 96khz file. It won't do 44.1. Since I started to actually listen to the discs in 24 bit format I use 24/48 for that reason. When I just had the intention of winding up with a CD product I used 24/44.1. The only reason I can see in your case to use a higher sampling rate is for future upgrades in the 24 bit playback realm. Looks like this was said already, but I'll leave it up anyways.

just to be clear, the "Audio DVD creator" program does not create DVD-Audio discs.  it creates DVD-Video discs, with the linear PCM as the audio portion.  the DVD-Video format allows for either 48 or 96 kHz sampling rate, while the DVD-Audio format is more flexible and allow for 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.  There is also reasonably priced (some of it is free) software to create DVD-A discs.  but then you need to make sure that your DVD player can handle the format.
Thanks for the clarification. I have a fancy new Oppo dvd player that will play damn near anything. What cheap/freeware will burn discs that will only play on a dvd-a player? Thanks again-Kevin


« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 03:05:32 PM by Kevin Straker »
People on ludes should not drive...
J. Spicoli

mk4,mk21>kc5>cmc6>V3>SD722

Offline JasonSobel

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3327
  • Gender: Male
    • My show list
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2008, 09:33:11 AM »
What cheap/freeware will burn discs that will only play on a dvd-a player?

DVD-Audiofile is a program that Scott Brown put together.  there's a lot of discussion of it here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,52892.0.html
(actually, what Scott did was put together a windows GUI for the free, open source "DVD audio Tools" project: http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/)
DVD-Audiofile will create a disc image (.ISO) of a DVD-Audio disc.  once the disc image is created, you can use any DVD burning program to burn the image.  I always use ImgBurn, which is a free program available here: http://www.imgburn.com/.

edit to add: I'm not sure if the links that Scott put up for DVD-Audiofile are still available.  If you can't download it there, I also have it mirrored on my 24 bit FAQ site: http://24bit.turtleside.com/

Offline ghellquist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2008, 07:23:17 PM »
OK ... I understand the gains of 24-bit over 16-bit (greater dynamic range), but I don't see the advantage of 48kHz over 44.1kHz.

Just adding my few cents to this. In short, it all depends according to my (in)experience:

1 - the purpose or end result of the recording. Sometimes 48 is a better end result as already mentionen about video DVD-s.
Deep stuff: If you want to do sound for video you might even want to select 48048 instead (.1% pullup, sometimes used when running audio together with video cameras).

2 - the AD converter you are using. Some simply sounds better at one or the other of the frequencys. I believe this may be because the designers had to work towards a budget and simply had to take short-cuts. (Sometimes I believe the designers simply did a bad job).

3 - what tools you are using. Sample rate conversion today is not a big deal. Programs like r8brain (even the free version) easily converts with good quality between any two sample rates.
Deep stuff: Rumours has it that in the historical days 44.1 was selected for CD-s in order to make it very incompatible with DAT running at 48. Used to be very difficult to convert, now any laptop has more processing power than old days supercomputing centers and eats those conversions for breakfast.

4 - what you are used to. Sure is easier if most things use same sample rate.

Gunnar

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2008, 08:06:29 PM »
ghellquist,

> Rumours has it that in the historical days 44.1 was selected for CD-s in order to make it very incompatible with DAT running at 48.

That simply isn't possible. The CD format was specified and implemented years before R-DAT existed as a medium.

The 44.1 kHz sampling rate was chosen for its compatibility with the field rate of broadcast video recorders, and because the available A/D converters at the time became less and less linear the faster you drove them. A single-channel A/D converter back then was an object the size of a small paperback book, costing well over $1000 apiece and requiring an annual trip back to the factory for recalibration. The converters had to be fine tuned for each session by finding the null in the noise floor (my job as a technician for New York Digital Recording in many sessions back then).

Throughout much of the 1980s, professional digital audio was generally recorded on broadcast-quality 3/4" "U-Matic" videotape on machines such as the Sony BVU-200 and BVU-800, via digital audio adapters such as the Sony PCM-1600, -1610 and -1630.

Consumer digital audio recording came about via the Sony PCM-1, PCM-10 and later the (much better known) PCM-F1, which were designed for use with consumer or industrial video recorders--the PCM-F1 even had a companion Betamax recorder, the SL-2000, which was identically styled. However, since the field rate of PAL/SECAM video differs from that of NTSC video, there actually were two very slightly different sampling rates depending on whether you bought the US/Japan model of the PCM-F1 or the European model; one of them ran at 44.056 kHz and the other at 44.1. If I remember correctly the U.S. model ran at 44.056, creating a 1/50th of a semitone shift in pitch if an F1 recording was transferred digitally to 1610.

But such transfers weren't possible in the beginning; you couldn't transfer a digital recording to a computer for editing; you couldn't get at the data in any way for years. PCs at that point wouldn't have been powerful enough to do much with audio anyway--their hard drives were slow, physically large but decidedly too small in capacity for audio projects, plus unreliable and expensive.

And so on.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline digifish_music

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1016
    • digifish music
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2008, 08:18:16 PM »
digifish, when digital audio was introduced to the general public in the early 1980s, there was a great deal of emphasis on making everyone into instant experts by explaining "how it works" down to a certain depth of understanding. Most journalists and other commentators relied on a certain stock set of images or metaphors to explain how it works. Part of that set was the idea that digital audio is recorded as a series of "stairstep" sample values.


Interesting response, on a small post.

The point of my post was for people to hear some low-level 16 bit recordings and compare them to 24 bit recordings. The differences are minimal.

I have made a lot of 16 and 24 bit recordings myself, I use 24 bit where I can to maintain a sensible safety margin and theoretically improve the audio quality. In my experience, 16 bit and 24 bit are indistinguishable in all real-world conditions where I record audio.

digifish
- What's this knob do?

Offline ghellquist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24/48 vs 24/44.1 ... Help?
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2008, 08:33:25 PM »
Interesting response, on a small post.

The point of my post was for people to hear some low-level 16 bit recordings and compare them to 24 bit recordings. The differences are minimal.

I have made a lot of 16 and 24 bit recordings myself, I use 24 bit where I can to maintain a sensible safety margin and theoretically improve the audio quality. In my experience, 16 bit and 24 bit are indistinguishable in all real-world conditions where I record audio.

digifish

There we differ in application. I find I get too small a margin down to the noise floor when recording 16 bits in classical music. I use those extra bits partly as safety margin by having peaks at or below -12dB Full Scale. But to be truthful, few so-called 24 bit AD-s really give more than 20 actual bits (signal to noise ratio hardly ever above 120dB). Once mastered I see absolutely no need for more than 16 bits as no playback system I ever has encountered gives that large S/N when actually used.

Gunnar

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.147 seconds with 64 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF