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Author Topic: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz  (Read 54551 times)

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adrianf74

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24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« on: February 18, 2012, 11:19:08 AM »
Hey everyone.

Just picked up a good quality 32GB microSDHC card the other day so I got to thinking: now that I have over 30 hours available at 24/48 and over 15 hours at 24/96, I'm wondering if I should record at 24/96 going forward?  I've always said (and thought) that there is little-to-no difference or benefit on using 96 except that you're "wasting" double the disk space.   Now that I have the ability (and space), I'm just wondering if I should go 24/96 going forward or just stick with 24/48. 

Gear being used is either DPA-4061's or CA-14 cards > Church Audio ST-9100 v4.4 Preamp or CA-Ugly Preamp > Sony M10.

Just curious as to what people here think.  TIA.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 11:28:51 AM »
I can't tell the difference between 24/48 and 24/96. I record 24/48 to save HD space.
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Offline sunset

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 12:26:42 PM »
 It's a matter of preference, I run 24/96. You'll get a different opinion depending on who you talk to. The best thing you can do for yourself is try it, and then make YOUR decision. Some say they hear the difference, some don't.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 01:30:17 PM »
I probably can't hear a difference, maybe others can.  So if you're going to record it and share it, you might as well make the best possible recording you can, IMO.  Although it does take more space on whatever storage device you use, and takes longer to process with your editing software.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 01:40:10 PM »
I'll echo what others have said here and tell you to try it for yourself and see if you can hear the difference.  Personally, I cannot so I always record at 24/48.  DVD quality audio is more than good enough for my purposes.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 02:22:56 PM »
I probably can't hear a difference, maybe others can.  So if you're going to record it and share it, you might as well make the best possible recording you can, IMO.  Although it does take more space on whatever storage device you use, and takes longer to process with your editing software.

I think you have to balance these 3 considerations - hearing the diff, available space, and processing time - and make the decision based on that...  I'm pretty lazy, so I usually just do 24/48, if I ever get out to tape...

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 02:28:06 PM »
I'll record in 24/96 in most instances unless I have space concerns with the SD card. My theroy is that since I can listen to the recording in 24/96 I might as well go for the highest resolution my playback system will permit. If I was going to dither/resample back to 16/44 then I dont see the point.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2012, 02:32:40 PM »
What about file size limit? That would be another reason to stick with 24/48, in my opinion. Even though most of out decks start new files seamlessly (I assume), I don't like that happening in the middle of a song.
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adrianf74

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2012, 02:46:42 PM »
I'll chime in with a bit more information -- space isn't a limitation for me as 32GB is plenty.  I have a system capable of playing back 24/96 with ease.  And for processing time, I'm running an i7-2670qm laptop with 8GB of RAM and a VERY FAST SSD so it's less of a concern as well.   

I also can hear a considerable difference with studio recordings at 24/96 vs. 24 or 16/48 or 44.  I guess the main test will be to just run a show or two at 24/96 and see.  Thanks for the feedback so far, guys.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2012, 03:14:10 PM »
 The better quality playback system you use, the better chance you'll have hearing any audible differences.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2012, 03:37:31 PM »
for recording loud amplified bands 96 khz makes no sense or you know the stacks can run up to 40 khz frequency response.  ;D

full acoustic or recording nature, or for SBD pulls it would be ok.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2012, 04:41:17 PM »
When doing analysis I always recommend high-quality headphones, it is *much* easier to spot differences when environmental noise is removed.  Best of all, they are much less expensive than high-quality speakers :)
I agree.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2012, 04:52:42 PM »
The difference between 44.1 and 48 is larger than the difference between 48 and any higher rate, within a 20kHz bandwidth.  So, first I would test to see if you can hear the difference between those two rates.

QFT

I did this years ago, and do it every time I upgrade my gear (either playback or ADC) and I can hear clipping more then I can hear the difference between 44.1 and 48k on good equipment when doing an actual ABX test.

When doing analysis I always recommend high-quality headphones, it is *much* easier to spot differences when environmental noise is removed.  Best of all, they are much less expensive than high-quality speakers :)
I agree.

Agreed also. Well, not sure about the cost issue, but the rest of the comment is spot on.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2012, 05:13:40 PM »
Run the highest resolution you can for mastering purposes. Regardless if you can hear it or not, someone else might.
Hell I plan on running 192/24 now that cards have come down in price and I because I can. Do it for the future :p
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2012, 05:44:46 PM »
Hell I plan on running 192/24 now that cards have come down in price and I because I can. Do it for the future :p

thats assuming your converters work as well at 192khz as they do at 44.1 or 48.

Run the highest resolution you can for mastering purposes. Regardless if you can hear it or not, someone else might.

that's also assuming that what you are capturing is actually valuable. I have a bunch of >48k recordings which I made that showed the mic I was using had a 30db spike at around 35khz. I can't hear it, but my cats might be able to... Not sure they appreciate it though.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2012, 06:35:24 PM »
Run the highest resolution you can for mastering purposes. Regardless if you can hear it or not, someone else might.
Hell I plan on running 192/24 now that cards have come down in price and I because I can. Do it for the future :p
??

Your not concerned about the file size limit, which I'm guessing is about 30 min at 192/24?
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2012, 06:54:58 PM »
Your not concerned about the file size limit, which I'm guessing is about 30 min at 192/24?
If I was stuck with size limitation on recording media yes I would be. Yet my only limitation now is 16 gb which
is enough for any show I record.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2012, 08:07:48 PM »
Your not concerned about the file size limit, which I'm guessing is about 30 min at 192/24?
If I was stuck with size limitation on recording media yes I would be. Yet my only limitation now is 16 gb which
is enough for any show I record.

yeah, for many it's now a media limitation and not a file size. There are a number of recorders which have really been put through the test to demonstrate they do not drop any samples when splitting files.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2012, 08:30:01 PM »
Hell I plan on running 192/24 now that cards have come down in price and I because I can. Do it for the future :p

thats assuming your converters work as well at 192khz as they do at 44.1 or 48.



Exactly. It's been discussed at length whether or not a modern ADC sounds as good at 192kHz vs. 96kHz and whether or not 192kHz exceeds the performance limitations of modern SRCs.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2012, 09:41:23 AM »
My theroy is that since I can listen to the recording in 24/96 I might as well go for the highest resolution my playback system will permit.  If I was going to dither/resample back to 16/44 then I dont see the point.

I agree with this for me.

I dither/resample to 44.1 for others who burn to cd, and for me so I have a version to throw on my ipod.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2012, 10:09:15 AM »
It's my standard response to this question, but nobody else has really mentioned it so I will.

For live recordings that generally suck anyway for one reason or another, above 48khz what difference does it make?  Even if I could hear a difference at 24/96, so what if I hear in greater quality how much a room sucks, how much my location sucks, how much those loud people talking near my mics suck, how much my rig sucks, etc. 

In the end, no matter what resolution you record at, the end result is still a crappy recording of a live show.  I've got $5000 or more wrapped up in my gear, and I still think literally 100% of my recordings sound like shit compared to how I want them to sound.

For studio recordings where everything is controllable, I say go for the highest res possible.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 10:13:52 AM by tonedeaf »

adrianf74

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2012, 10:12:41 AM »
It's my standard response to this question, but nobody else has really mentioned it so I will.

For live recordings that generally suck anyway for one reason or another, above 48khz what difference does it make?  Even if I could hear a difference at 24/96, so what if I hear in greater quality how much a room sucks, how much my location sucks, how much those loud people talking near my mics suck, how much my rig sucks, etc. 

For studio recordings where everything is controllable, I say go for the highest res possible.
Of course this makes some sense (and I completely agree), however, there were one or two shows back in October where I wish I'd rolled at the higher rate just because the pull was THAT GOOD.  With this in mind, it's one of the reasons I've been toying with 24/96 (and because I can).

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2012, 10:19:12 AM »
It's my standard response to this question, but nobody else has really mentioned it so I will.

For live recordings that generally suck anyway for one reason or another, above 48khz what difference does it make?  Even if I could hear a difference at 24/96, so what if I hear in greater quality how much a room sucks, how much my location sucks, how much those loud people talking near my mics suck, how much my rig sucks, etc. 

For studio recordings where everything is controllable, I say go for the highest res possible.
Of course this makes some sense (and I completely agree), however, there were one or two shows back in October where I wish I'd rolled at the higher rate just because the pull was THAT GOOD.  With this in mind, it's one of the reasons I've been toying with 24/96 (and because I can).

Can't argue that point either.  It's all a function of your personal situation and what your priorities are.  I can see the people with uber high end playback valuing the 24/96.  I can also see people with limited harddrive space saying 24/96 masters are a waste.  In this case of this question, it seems logical that there's no one size fits all response.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2012, 10:46:50 AM »
It's my standard response to this question, but nobody else has really mentioned it so I will.

For live recordings that generally suck anyway for one reason or another, above 48khz what difference does it make?  Even if I could hear a difference at 24/96, so what if I hear in greater quality how much a room sucks, how much my location sucks, how much those loud people talking near my mics suck, how much my rig sucks, etc. 

For studio recordings where everything is controllable, I say go for the highest res possible.
Of course this makes some sense (and I completely agree), however, there were one or two shows back in October where I wish I'd rolled at the higher rate just because the pull was THAT GOOD.  With this in mind, it's one of the reasons I've been toying with 24/96 (and because I can).

I would be willing to bet a few bucks that recording a PA system with 4061>Church>M10, there is no recording, no matter how good, where you could tell the difference with 24/96.  The response of every other thing in the chain, starting with the PA system, is worse than could make a difference. I take Jon's point from earlier, but still... I just doubt it.  If you were recording chamber music or orchestras or something with your rig, then MAYBE you could tell a diff, but....
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2012, 11:23:57 AM »
I would be willing to bet a few bucks that recording a PA system with 4061>Church>M10, there is no recording, no matter how good, where you could tell the difference with 24/96.  The response of every other thing in the chain, starting with the PA system, is worse than could make a difference. I take Jon's point from earlier, but still... I just doubt it.  If you were recording chamber music or orchestras or something with your rig, then MAYBE you could tell a diff, but....

In the case of one of those recordings, it was with a particular artist, his band, a choir and full orchestra.  They have a REALLY good sounding PA at this particular casino (close to 2 hours north of Toronto) so that show may have benefited with the sample rate.  There are some clubs shows (and stadium/arena ones as well) that would not benefit.  I was just curious as to what people thought on it, in general.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2012, 02:04:27 PM »
Part of it is who knows what the future holds.  Ideas for playback and what can be done with these files are endless.  If I'm going to lug this gear out, and tape music that I like enough to spend valuable time and money on, I may as well record at the highest settings reasonably possible.  This is my main hobby as time with family and work has not allowed for much more.  Sports, and other man hobbies have been relegated to moderate amounts that past 4 years that I've ramped up my collecting and taping efforts.  Vast majority of my free time is music related (attending/managing files at home). 

Just another thought on my personal perspective on recording 24/96.  Everyones situation is different, and I think you should record in the format that works for you and your ideals of what you're getting out of this.  It's clear there's no right or wrong today and what's best is a matter of perspective, so just do what works for you and your situation.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2012, 02:59:02 PM »
My ears can't tell the difference, and to those that have bionic golden ears, have you done a blind taste test and guessed correctly 10 out of 10 times?
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2012, 03:26:16 PM »
My ears can't tell the difference, and to those that have bionic golden ears, have you done a blind taste test and guessed correctly 10 out of 10 times?

I bet not ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2012, 03:28:34 PM »
My ears can't tell the difference, and to those that have bionic golden ears, have you done a blind taste test and guessed correctly 10 out of 10 times?

Has somebody claimed to hear a difference?  I've never heard that claim.

I think it's about file format.  You can always go down.  Can't always go up.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2012, 04:03:32 PM »
My ears can't tell the difference, and to those that have bionic golden ears, have you done a blind taste test and guessed correctly 10 out of 10 times?

Has somebody claimed to hear a difference?  I've never heard that claim.

I think it's about file format.  You can always go down.  Can't always go up.

very very true, but if you can't tell a difference with great gear, does it matter? This is the proverbial "falling tree sound" issue and the real question in my mind.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2012, 04:06:14 PM »

If I'm going to lug this gear out, and tape music that I like enough to spend valuable time and money on, I may as well record at the highest settings reasonably possible.

I think I most strongly identify with this statement. I don't always record at 24/96, which is my perceived highest reasonable setting, but I like to when I can. I believe I can afford the extra time required in post-processing, the extra disc storage space needed, and ultimately I enjoy the prospect of listening to my masters at the highest resolution possible.

I generally won't tape at 24/96 if I know I'm going to have to share my masters with other tapers or the band/label/etc simply because it's a chore to transfer such large files. 24/48 is far more convenient for just about everyone.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2012, 04:54:30 PM »
I think I most strongly identify with this statement. I don't always record at 24/96, which is my perceived highest reasonable setting, but I like to when I can. I believe I can afford the extra time required in post-processing, the extra disc storage space needed, and ultimately I enjoy the prospect of listening to my masters at the highest resolution possible.

I generally won't tape at 24/96 if I know I'm going to have to share my masters with other tapers or the band/label/etc simply because it's a chore to transfer such large files. 24/48 is far more convenient for just about everyone.

It's not that hard to run a 24/96 file through R8Brain (or some such program) to downconvert to 24/48 or 16/44 if you need to distribute a show (especially when you're running a fast enough PC).  I'm just toying with the idea of 24/96 for the shows where it might be worth it or just moving to it flat-out since I have the ability to.   I've always been one to say running more than 24/48 on the gear I'm running seems to be a waste but I know I have the ability to do it.  I'm almost tempted to record at 24/96 and then dumb-down to 24/48 for my "master" allowing me to keep the original files as is should I need to revist them down the road.   It also gives me the ability to master at 24/96 for the shows that truly deserve it.  Whether I'll "hear" a difference is to be determined and whether using twice the space is worth it is another question.

I know the M10 can do seamless file splitting with NO lost samples.  It's been reported on quite a bit in these parts.  All of this being added, this is why I'm thinking about it...

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2012, 06:13:27 PM »
I almost always record at 24/44.  Why?  Because I know I'm going to be listening at 44k most of the time (CD's or 16/44 flacs on my iRiver). I think about the mathematical process of resampling from 48k or 96k down to 44k... all that mathematical interpolation to get to 44k, I think it has to sound more accurate if I go direct at 24/44 than if I record at 48 or 96k and resample.   My "proof is in the pudding" test was taking a 1bit recording from my MR1, letting audiogate save it to 24/44, then again at 24/48.  Resample the 24/48 to 24/44, invert and combine with the 24/44, so all that's left is the inaccurate little crumbs left over from resampling.  There is a lot more left over than you might expect.

Back when I had Earthworks (which are documented to be able to pick up soundwaves up to 30k), if I was recording onstage I felt good about recording at 24/96 thinking I might actually pick up some HF information above 20khz.  But if I am recording a PA, I don't believe there is anything above 20khz hitting my mics that I might capture, except possibly the gentle harmonics from "loud whistling guy" and "loud clapping guy".  They are recording the show with SM57's and CM81's, running through the board, amp, and PA... no way any HF information is making it to me.

Jon has a good argument about the quality of brickwall filters... which is better?  the one in my rig, or the one on my computer?  I don't know.

And I can't really hear 16k any more.  Not so much hear it as "feel that there is something there".
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 06:44:34 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
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Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2012, 06:22:56 PM »
Thanks Jon and Joe.  I think between the two last replies, my question has pretty much been answered and then some.  I've also spoken with a few others outside of here and everything points to running beyond 24/48 as being a general "waste" of space when recording from a PA source (and possibly little benefit from a soundboard output as well) -- not to mention the issues introduced with SRC.  That said, I'll just continue to stick with 24/48 for now and maybe consider 24/96 for those "special instances."   Hopefully this has helped a few people out as well.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2012, 06:28:59 PM »
FWIW:

- I can hear a difference between 24/48 and 24/96, and sometimes between 24/96 and 24/192.

- To hear the benefits of a sample rate higher than 48 kHz, I have to be using a good outboard DA and good monitors.

- I used to record 24/96 and sometimes even 24/192 because "I wanted to have a great raw recording available if the band ever needed it."

- I've since decided on using 24/48 for most of my regular audience recording because:
--> I post-process nearly everything and want a higher data rate than my final output which is 16/44.1.
--> None of the bands I've recorded have ever asked for the raw recordings to do things with.
--> In the grander scheme 24/48 is better than the rest of my signal chain:  I normally have to set up in a non-optimal position, my mics are cheap, my recorder has cheap pre's and AD converters. 
--> If a band really wants a very high quality recording we'll set it up in a different way and make the whole thing a heck of a lot better.
--> Less data is cheaper:  In the past two weeks I've collected about 10 GB of data.  Through processing that will normally become about 25 GB.  Running at 96 kHz means I have to buy another HDD twice as soon.

But the most important for me is:

--> Less data is faster:  my single biggest issue with taping is time.  If I can cut out 15% of the time it takes to post-process I get more done, make more people happy, and get more sleep.

Like others have already said, choose what's best for you. Other than that, there is no best, only best for a particular situation.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2012, 06:31:23 PM »
Second, anecdotally I have noted that peoples' ears seem to incorporate their own "brickwall" filters.  That is, hearing does not drop off at any low-order filter (6dB, 12dB per octave); my best ear hears at 17kHz, then it's gone, it doesn't matter how loud you (cleanly) play 18kHz, I can't hear it.  With that in mind, I would think that incremental differences in sample rate *could* be as dramatic as order-of-magnitude changes.  This is why I tend to think that the difference between 44.1 and 48 is larger than 48 to 88.1, because the gremlins that lurk below 20kHz are mostly already gone by 48.

This is in accordance with a wide body of well-established audiology literature; especially in the high-end, the drop off is very steep.  Almost vertical.

I think this white-paper from Lavry sheds a lot of light on this subject: http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf

Quote from: Lavry
The notion that more is better may appeal to one's common sense. Presented with analogies such as more pixels for better video, or faster clock to speed computers, one may be misled to believe that faster sampling will yield better resolution and detail. The analogies are wrong. The great value offered by Nyquist's theorem is the realization that we have ALL the information with 100% of the detail, and no distortions, without the burden of "extra fast" sampling.

Nyquist pointed out that the sampling rate needs only to exceed twice the signal bandwidth. What is the audio bandwidth? Research shows that musical instruments may produce energy above 20 KHz, but there is little sound energy at above 40KHz. Most microphones do not pick up sound at much over 20KHz. Human hearing rarely exceeds 20KHz, and certainly does not reach 40KHz. The above suggests that 88.2 or 96KHz would be overkill. In fact all the objections regarding audio sampling at 44.1KHz, (including the arguments relating to pre ringing of an FIR filter) are long gone by increasing sampling to about 60KHz.

He goes into a lot of detail that speaks to what Jon described as well as the physical limitations of some of the circuitry...He is particularly negative about 192 kHz.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2012, 06:47:35 PM »

- I can hear a difference between 24/48 and 24/96, and sometimes between 24/96 and 24/192.
articular situation.

You're a mosquito dude,  the rest of use are humans.  ;D
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
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Offline newplanet7

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2012, 09:49:58 PM »

- I can hear a difference between 24/48 and 24/96, and sometimes between 24/96 and 24/192.
articular situation.

You're a mosquito dude,  the rest of use are humans.  ;D
;D
Me and Joe talked about these things the other night and what we both gathered was what Lenny stated:

Everyones situation is different, and I think you should record in the format that works for you and your ideals of what you're getting out of this.  It's clear there's no right or wrong today and what's best is a matter of perspective, so just do what works for you and your situation.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline mosquito

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2012, 10:36:28 PM »

- I can hear a difference between 24/48 and 24/96, and sometimes between 24/96 and 24/192.
articular situation.

You're a mosquito dude,  the rest of use are humans.  ;D

Hahaha!  Touché!

Offline justink

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2012, 06:36:46 PM »
i've already decided to stop releasing anything in 16/44.1.  to me, the cd is basically dead, and people are going to mp3 your uploaded files anyway...  so i'm just releasing/uploading in the format that i recorded in.

usually, i'll go 24/96, but if there's any reason that 96 is overkill, i'd love to hear more about that.
Mics:
DPA 4023 (Cardioid)
DPA 4028 (Subcardioid)
DPA 4018V (Supercardioid)
Earthworks TC25 (Omni) 

Pres and A/D's:
Grace Design Lunatec V3 (Oade ACM)
Edirol UA-5 (bm2p+ Mod)

Recorders:
Sound Devices MixPre10 II
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Offline acidjack

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2012, 06:50:47 PM »
i've already decided to stop releasing anything in 16/44.1.  to me, the cd is basically dead, and people are going to mp3 your uploaded files anyway...  so i'm just releasing/uploading in the format that i recorded in.

usually, i'll go 24/96, but if there's any reason that 96 is overkill, i'd love to hear more about that.

You make an excellent point.  I'm increasingly unclear who is burning things to CD, though I guess people do it.  I'd certainly prefer to just release my non-downsampled 24/48 FLACs and the VBR0 MP3s I already post on nyctaper.  Only people on DIME would complain, methinks.

Oh, but actually, the LMA only streams at 16/44.1, right?  That'd be another valid reason...
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2012, 06:57:11 PM »
i've already decided to stop releasing anything in 16/44.1.  to me, the cd is basically dead, and people are going to mp3 your uploaded files anyway...  so i'm just releasing/uploading in the format that i recorded in.

usually, i'll go 24/96, but if there's any reason that 96 is overkill, i'd love to hear more about that.

You make an excellent point.  I'm increasingly unclear who is burning things to CD, though I guess people do it.  I'd certainly prefer to just release my non-downsampled 24/48 FLACs and the VBR0 MP3s I already post on nyctaper.  Only people on DIME would complain, methinks.

Oh, but actually, the LMA only streams at 16/44.1, right?  That'd be another valid reason...

dime does complain, but they're retarded in their logic.  i'm not using dime for that reason anymore...  if i want to upload mp3's of a show i taped, i'll do it... elsewhere.

LMA will stream 24 bit files, they just derive from whatever you upload.  i'm not sure what exactly they do on their side, but i know it works.
Mics:
DPA 4023 (Cardioid)
DPA 4028 (Subcardioid)
DPA 4018V (Supercardioid)
Earthworks TC25 (Omni) 

Pres and A/D's:
Grace Design Lunatec V3 (Oade ACM)
Edirol UA-5 (bm2p+ Mod)

Recorders:
Sound Devices MixPre10 II
Edirol R-44 (Oade CM)
Sony PCM‑M10

adrianf74

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2012, 07:02:11 PM »
@JustinK: I think Jon and Joe were trying to point out that 96/24 can be overkill and detrimental depending on what the final output is going to be.   I only convert my 48/24 recordings to 44/16 for VBR0 release to my friends (and for my phone when I'm at the gym or wherever).  To convert from 96/24 to 44/16 can introduce a lot of artifacts during the SRC so it's not overly advisable.   The other part of the equation is what do you plan to gain above the 20kHz threshold with a 96kHz recording.   

@AcidJack: What's a CD?  :D  Seriously though, I haven't burned a show to CD since the mid-2000's as I've gone FLAC file-based to a) save room and b) prepare for the future in knowing that my tunes are easily available on my media computer at home.

@Both: DIME... Meh.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2012, 07:30:12 PM »
Sill burning discs and love it whorez!!!!  :-*
I know quite a few people who put 16/44 flacs on their portable players after downloading as well as burn cd's.
Maybe it's a NH thang?
Maybe I am biased because I have been taping at 16/44 for four years but,
 I don't really see much improvement going to 24/48. I was going to just do it and get a dr100mkII
 but I am fully satisfied with my box. Probably don't have the playback and ears to notice anyway.
I get the not running levels so hot but once again, I know people who run and shoot for -6db hitting close to zero.
I do that with my 660 and have zero complaints. Raising the volume(if even necessary) -2db is nothing in the way of noise
that I hear.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline Belexes

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2012, 07:36:59 PM »
If I was in a controlled taping environment (studio), I would likely run 24/96. For us who are recording PA stacks, beer bottles being thrown away, chatty people near your gear, and sometimes a poor band...24/96? C'mon Man!
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

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adrianf74

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2012, 07:48:30 PM »
Sill burning discs and love it whorez!!!!  :-*
I know quite a few people who put 16/44 flacs on their portable players after downloading as well as burn cd's.
Maybe it's a NH thang?
Maybe I am biased because I have been taping at 16/44 for four years but,
 I don't really see much improvement going to 24/48. I was going to just do it and get a dr100mkII
 but I am fully satisfied with my box. Probably don't have the playback and ears to notice anyway.
I get the not running levels so hot but once again, I know people who run and shoot for -6db hitting close to zero.
I do that with my 660 and have zero complaints. Raising the volume(if even necessary) -2db is nothing in the way of noise
that I hear.
24-Bit over 16-Bit gives you better headroom and if you need to boost levels, you'll boost less hiss.   I think the general rule has been either 24/44 or 24/48 as a rule.   My question was to whether or not 24/96 was worth recording at if I've got the ability to which I've learned is likely NOT worthwhile.    As far as CDs... hm...  I buy CDs and rip them to flac and put 'em away (or download the hires version if its available).

adrianf74

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2012, 07:49:29 PM »
If I was in a controlled taping environment (studio), I would likely run 24/96. For us who are recording PA stacks, beer bottles being thrown away, chatty people near your gear, and sometimes a poor band...24/96? C'mon Man!
The one time I would've liked 24/96 would've been in an environment far removed from the one you describe, however, that would more often than not be the case.  :(   24/48 it is.

Offline newplanet7

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 08:00:32 PM »
I know about all the headroom and hiss jargon. Not new here. The headroom stuff is obviously the only reason to "upgrade"
I think though I would just run hot in 24bit also. HOWEVER, I would be getting more data.
I just don't see it as a huge factor in how I tape.
The outboard pre, probably not. Some of the pres on these all in ones are good stock.
Fr2le and r-44 are good.
 I dig two pres in particular though. Portico 5012 and PSP3.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline dnsacks

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2012, 08:19:17 PM »
food for though -- many portable mp3 players (iphone and android included) have zero problem playing 48k mp3s (and zero problem playing 24bit mp3s).  I don't believe that halving the 96k sample rate to 48k introduces nearly the artifacts realized from a 44.1 conversion.  Another option for those that see 44.1k as a foreseeable final step is to record at 88.2k . . .

I've been recording everything at 24/96 for a few years now and have tweaked my post show workflow to the point where it doesn't really take any more time to combine wavs, track in cdwav and save as 24/96 flacs.  I either track out the first file up to the split and combine the track "orphaned" by the split with the next file or simply combine multiple files before tracking in CD Wave.  Once tracked, flac'ed and tagged, I can load entire shows into foobar2000 (even use foobar2000 on my macbook with WINE) and use Foobar plugins (including SoX) to automagically resample and/or dither and/or convert to mp3 as necessary. 

I record at this resolution to best "future proof" my recordings -- suspect I couldn't hear the difference on my current equipment through double blind testing, but given the cheap price of hard drives ($240 for a pair of 2tb drives capable of providing redundant storage for over 500 complete shows at 24/96), and the unknown advances we may see in the not too distant future, I see no reason NOT to record at the highest resolution that I can.

Offline justink

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 08:22:23 PM »
food for though -- many portable mp3 players (iphone and android included) have zero problem playing 48k mp3s (and zero problem playing 24bit mp3s).  I don't believe that halving the 96k sample rate to 48k introduces nearly the artifacts realized from a 44.1 conversion.  Another option for those that see 44.1k as a foreseeable final step is to record at 88.2k . . .

I've been recording everything at 24/96 for a few years now and have tweaked my post show workflow to the point where it doesn't really take any more time to combine wavs, track in cdwav and save as 24/96 flacs.  I either track out the first file up to the split and combine the track "orphaned" by the split with the next file or simply combine multiple files before tracking in CD Wave.  Once tracked, flac'ed and tagged, I can load entire shows into foobar2000 (even use foobar2000 on my macbook with WINE) and use Foobar plugins (including SoX) to automagically resample and/or dither and/or convert to mp3 as necessary. 

I record at this resolution to best "future proof" my recordings -- suspect I couldn't hear the difference on my current equipment through double blind testing, but given the cheap price of hard drives ($240 for a pair of 2tb drives capable of providing redundant storage for over 500 complete shows at 24/96), and the unknown advances we may see in the not too distant future, I see no reason NOT to record at the highest resolution that I can.

this is exactly how i feel about recording in 96...
Mics:
DPA 4023 (Cardioid)
DPA 4028 (Subcardioid)
DPA 4018V (Supercardioid)
Earthworks TC25 (Omni) 

Pres and A/D's:
Grace Design Lunatec V3 (Oade ACM)
Edirol UA-5 (bm2p+ Mod)

Recorders:
Sound Devices MixPre10 II
Edirol R-44 (Oade CM)
Sony PCM‑M10

Offline newplanet7

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2012, 10:07:53 PM »
I record at this resolution to best "future proof" my recordings -- suspect I couldn't hear the difference on my current equipment through double blind testing, but given the cheap price of hard drives ($240 for a pair of 2tb drives capable of providing redundant storage for over 500 complete shows at 24/96), and the unknown advances we may see in the not too distant future, I see no reason NOT to record at the highest resolution that I can.
Well put!
This is why I will eventually step up. I guess I am a creature of habit. Great post sir!
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

dorrcoq

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2012, 11:30:05 PM »
If I was in a controlled taping environment (studio), I would likely run 24/96. For us who are recording PA stacks, beer bottles being thrown away, chatty people near your gear, and sometimes a poor band...24/96? C'mon Man!

Obviously you can record at whatever setting you want.  But I don't understand why you would care at all if others choose another option.

Offline Belexes

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2012, 12:03:11 PM »
If I was in a controlled taping environment (studio), I would likely run 24/96. For us who are recording PA stacks, beer bottles being thrown away, chatty people near your gear, and sometimes a poor band...24/96? C'mon Man!

Obviously you can record at whatever setting you want.  But I don't understand why you would care at all if others choose another option.

I don't, but some 24/96 folks defend their actions so staunchly like *I* am doing something wrong by recording 24/48 and am absolutely insane not to step it up to 24/96.

Even though the technology allows, do our humans ears even decipher a difference?  Some here say yes, but that is a matter of opinion and subject to analysis of listening to the same file at two different resolutions and being able to correctly decipher one from the other.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2012, 04:08:39 PM »
Well, I do agree there may be a bit of "elitism" in recording at 24/96, but it can't hurt. ;D

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2012, 06:36:03 PM »
FWIW, I flirted a bit with 24/96, but decided that it wasn't worth the extra disk space needed. 24/48 suits me just fine, and if I need 44.1, the SoX resampler does a wonderful job. Unless my target audience included dogs, cats, etc., (or I was doing scientific or engineering work that needed ultrasonic frequencies) and my entire recording chain from mics to ADC accurately handled ultrasonics, I don't feel that I could really justify the extra overhead. Then, even if the recording chain was ultrasonically accurate, what about the playback system? Let's just say I'm more in the Audio Critic camp than the Stereophile camp, and worrying about ultrasonic accuracy for music would just be a way to relieve one's wallet of extra cash. ;)

Regarding MP3, I'm not sure the concept of "bit depth" is relevant. LAME will happily digest a 24-bit source file and give me an MP3 that plays fine on any MP3-compatible hardware (assuming in VBR mode that the player supports VBR, as anything recent should). In any case, 48 kHz is a valid sample rate for MP3, and I haven't heard of a player not supporting it.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2012, 07:12:48 PM »
FWIW, I flirted a bit with 24/96, but decided that it wasn't worth the extra disk space needed. 24/48 suits me just fine, and if I need 44.1, the SoX resampler does a wonderful job. Unless my target audience included dogs, cats, etc., (or I was doing scientific or engineering work that needed ultrasonic frequencies) and my entire recording chain from mics to ADC accurately handled ultrasonics, I don't feel that I could really justify the extra overhead. Then, even if the recording chain was ultrasonically accurate, what about the playback system? Let's just say I'm more in the Audio Critic camp than the Stereophile camp, and worrying about ultrasonic accuracy for music would just be a way to relieve one's wallet of extra cash. ;)

Regarding MP3, I'm not sure the concept of "bit depth" is relevant. LAME will happily digest a 24-bit source file and give me an MP3 that plays fine on any MP3-compatible hardware (assuming in VBR mode that the player supports VBR, as anything recent should). In any case, 48 kHz is a valid sample rate for MP3, and I haven't heard of a player not supporting it.

so, explain this to me exactly...  the difference between 48 and 96 is only the frequencies above human hearing?  if that were the case, why would BluRay use 24/96?  seems a bit wasteful, especially on hard media.

i always thought the difference between 48 and 96 was that there were 96 "snapshots" (if you will) of the entire frequency spectrum, rather than 48 "snapshots".  put together at normal speed, the recording would be more "in tact" representation of what was actually being played.

two completely different things here, so which one is it?
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2012, 07:37:22 PM »
so, explain this to me exactly...  the difference between 48 and 96 is only the frequencies above human hearing?  if that were the case, why would BluRay use 24/96?  seems a bit wasteful, especially on hard media.

Yes.  Even at 48 kHz, you are well beyond the range of almost all peoples' hearing.  At 96 kHz, more than half of your recording is above the 20 kHz usually accepted as the upper limit...Why does BluRay do it?  Marketing...

i always thought the difference between 48 and 96 was that there were 96 "snapshots" (if you will) of the entire frequency spectrum, rather than 48 "snapshots".  put together at normal speed, the recording would be more "in tact" representation of what was actually being played.

two completely different things here, so which one is it?

You can perfectly reproduce a wave form up to a given frequency by sampling at twice that frequency. 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2012, 07:46:01 PM »
so, explain this to me exactly...  the difference between 48 and 96 is only the frequencies above human hearing?  if that were the case, why would BluRay use 24/96?  seems a bit wasteful, especially on hard media.

Yes.  Even at 48 kHz, you are well beyond the range of almost all peoples' hearing.  At 96 kHz, more than half of your recording is above the 20 kHz usually accepted as the upper limit...Why does BluRay do it?  Marketing...

i always thought the difference between 48 and 96 was that there were 96 "snapshots" (if you will) of the entire frequency spectrum, rather than 48 "snapshots".  put together at normal speed, the recording would be more "in tact" representation of what was actually being played.

two completely different things here, so which one is it?

You can perfectly reproduce a wave form up to a given frequency by sampling at twice that frequency.

right, so the higher the khz (ie.  96 vs. 48), the better, right?  the more samples you have, the closer you are to the actual analog signal/wav, right? 

or is that the bit aspect?  i'm kinda confused now.
Mics:
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Offline aaronji

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2012, 07:55:36 PM »
right, so the higher the khz (ie.  96 vs. 48), the better, right?  the more samples you have, the closer you are to the actual analog signal/wav, right? 

Not really.  You can't hear above ~ 20 kHz, which is perfectly reproduced (no information lost) at a 40 kHz sampling rate.  At 96 kHz, you aren't reproducing the wave at 20 kHz any better and the additional samples go to reproducing ultrasonic frequencies.  If your mics are recording them in the first place...

The Lavry paper I linked earlier explains all this in considerable detail.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2012, 08:01:58 PM »
i always thought the difference between 48 and 96 was that there were 96 "snapshots" (if you will) of the entire frequency spectrum, rather than 48 "snapshots".  put together at normal speed, the recording would be more "in tact" representation of what was actually being played.

two completely different things here, so which one is it?

You can perfectly reproduce a wave form up to a given frequency by sampling at twice that frequency.

right, so the higher the khz (ie.  96 vs. 48), the better, right?  the more samples you have, the closer you are to the actual analog signal/wav, right? 

or is that the bit aspect?  i'm kinda confused now.

read up on nyquist theory which all of this stuff is bound by.

aaronji is on target, the problem is you don't get more samples per second by increasing your kilohertz settings, you get more frequency bands to sample twice per second. Hence the dog/cat comment, they can hear that, and presuming that you're recording gear is actually sophisticated to accurately capture it, humans can't hear a 30khz test tone. You're just as close to analog signal at 44.1 as you are at 192 in the realm of sampling, because your frequency bands are all being samples twice per second, regardless of which setting you use, the 2khz band which humans hear well in is still only being sampled twice...

The Lavry paper I linked earlier explains all this in considerable detail.

qft. Dense stuff, but it's without marketing fluff (which there is a ton of in hi-fi...)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2012, 09:24:25 PM »
right, so the higher the khz (ie.  96 vs. 48), the better, right?  the more samples you have, the closer you are to the actual analog signal/wav, right? 

Not really.  You can't hear above ~ 20 kHz, which is perfectly reproduced (no information lost) at a 40 kHz sampling rate.  At 96 kHz, you aren't reproducing the wave at 20 kHz any better and the additional samples go to reproducing ultrasonic frequencies.  If your mics are recording them in the first place...

The Lavry paper I linked earlier explains all this in considerable detail.

i guess i've just had the whole "theory" of it wrong to begin with... good info, thanks.
Mics:
DPA 4023 (Cardioid)
DPA 4028 (Subcardioid)
DPA 4018V (Supercardioid)
Earthworks TC25 (Omni) 

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Edirol UA-5 (bm2p+ Mod)

Recorders:
Sound Devices MixPre10 II
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Offline aaronji

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2012, 09:42:47 AM »
You can perfectly reproduce a wave form up to a given frequency by sampling at twice that frequency.

And importantly that signal needs to be bandwidth-limited, otherwise you will get aliasing.  The required filter takes up a bit of bandwidth, and the more DSP resources you have for the calculation gives you better accuracy, lower latency, or both.  So those are the physical constraints that might cause one to select a sample rate greater than twice bandwidth.

My (admittedly limited) understanding of this is that you don't have to go too far above Nyquist to allow room for that filtering with modern ADCs?  Any idea how much?

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2012, 03:24:24 PM »

24-Bit over 16-Bit gives you better headroom and if you need to boost levels, you'll boost less hiss.

The above is a common myth that keeps getting repeated, but that doesn't make it fact.  Back in the day when people ran analog tape that was true, because you did lose headroom and get hiss.  In early digital media (DAT etc) they maintained a similar mind set.  With digital wav files if you want to run at -6 or -12, go ahead, it's easy to click "amplify" on the computer afterward.  Because it's easy people said "dude, stop stressing about clipping, just run it at -6 or -12 and bring it up in post."  That's not really because of 24bit, that's just coincidental timing.

A/D converters aren't magic.  Let's imagine you are a kid in 3rd grade with a curve on graph paper.  You interpolate your curve into little XY points.  That's all an A/D converter does.  The real magic is all in the analog stuff that makes the graph in the first place.



The top and bottom extremes are the limits of your A/D converter... i.e. 0db = where clipping starts.   If you run 6 db below that, you have 6db of headroom, which is helpful to avoid clipping on the occasional drum whack. How much hiss you have is a function of how noisy your analog gear is before the A/D.  Headroom and hiss are unrelated to A/D converter, sampling rate, or sample depth, they are in the analog domain.

Using 4, 8, 16, or 24bit is just like using much finer graph paper along the vertical scale.  Sample rate is how coarse your graph paper is along the horizontal axis.  Now it's absolutely true that higher resolution will allow you to record the numbers in smaller increments and then if you plot the points and redraw the curve it will be more accurate, at least along the vertical axis.  At some point you ask "how much is enough, and when does it become overkill?" Have you listened to some of those 8bit PCM GD tapes from years ago?  Personally, I think they sound pretty damn good!!!  Going from 8 bit to 16 bit is 256 x smaller increments, and that's significant.  Going from 16bit to 24bit is another 256 times, and at some point it becomes overkill.  It's like a 4megapixel camera versus 1000megapixels.   More is better, but at some point enough is enough. So 16bit versus 24bit has merit, but how much merit is anyone's opinion.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 04:51:47 PM by SmokinJoe »
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2012, 03:56:40 PM »
44.1k became a standard because the guys who created the standard CD wanted a particular symphony to fit on 1 disk and that made it fit.  But at a technical level I'm sure they agreed it was in fact "good enough".  48k became a standard to go with video tape.

urban legend from what I gather, the size was based on the cassette as a basis and the sample and bitrates came as technical hold-overs from prior technology that they built upon.

The AES history paper on it is a neat read (available here):
http://www.exp-math.uni-essen.de/~immink/pdf/cdstory.htm

but yes, the rest of the post is well done. (I thought the old Sony ADCs used in PCM were 12bit or 14bit? I don't know)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2012, 04:42:44 PM »
Using 4, 8, 16, or 24bit is just like using much finer graph paper along the vertical scale.  Sample rate is how coarse your graph paper is along the horizontal axis.  Now it's absolutely true that higher resolution will allow you to record the numbers in smaller increments and then if you plot the points and redraw the curve it will be more accurate, at least along the vertical axis.  At some point you ask "how much is enough, and when does it become overkill?" Have you listened to some of those 8bit PCM GD tapes from years ago?  Personally, I think they sound pretty damn good!!!  Going from 8 bit to 16 bit is 256 x smaller increments, and that's significant.  Going from 16bit to 24bit is another 256 times, and at some point it becomes overkill.  It's like a 4megapixel camera versus 1000megapixels.   More is better, but at some point enough is enough. So 16bit versus 24bit has merit, but how much merit is anyone's opinion.

This is incorrect as I understand it. PCM encoding to a higher bit depth provides a larger range of possible signal levels which can be stored.  It does not increase the resolution of information within the range which is covered by a lower bit depth, it expands the upper limit of that range.  The fact that the amplitude variations of most music range around 30dB or so for the most part (some more, some less, exceptions for fade outs and very dynamic stuff like some classical music) and that the proper use of dither can allow for the perception of signal well below the noise floor, partly explains how music can still sound very good through limited bit depth formats.  What was the early Denon digital recording system? Something like 12 or 13 bits? That's approximately equivalent the range of level available with analog LPs.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2012, 05:47:35 PM »
This is incorrect as I understand it. PCM encoding to a higher bit depth provides a larger range of possible signal levels which can be stored.  It does not increase the resolution of information within the range which is covered by a lower bit depth, it expands the upper limit of that range.  The fact that the amplitude variations of most music range around 30dB or so for the most part (some more, some less, exceptions for fade outs and very dynamic stuff like some classical music) and that the proper use of dither can allow for the perception of signal well below the noise floor, partly explains how music can still sound very good through limited bit depth formats.  What was the early Denon digital recording system? Something like 12 or 13 bits? That's approximately equivalent the range of level available with analog LPs.

I think it's matter of perspective.  As far as the actual numbers go, an 8bit A/D will divide "full range" into possible numbers of 0 to 2^8 -1 = 0 to 255.  12 bit is 0 - 4095.  16 bit is 0 - 65535, and 24bit is 0 - 16,777,215.  So whatever "full scale" is (+/-  X volts) get's divided down into that number of pieces.  you might say "the number range goes higher".  I say we divide into smaller increments of 1/x... same thing, different words.  I once heard it described like so... think of 24 bit as the 16 bit range 0 - 65535, and then have a fractional x/256th's appended to that.  For some people that might be easier to grasp... it's really all the same.

Dithering is a whole 'nuther issue.  If you have data available at a high bit depth and save it to a lower bit depth, it's probably a good idea.  That is a big selling point to audiophiles, but I think it's only slightly more important than "burning in your cables." For years a lot of us ran UA-5's > JB3/H120/D8 which truncated with no dithering.  It sounded fine if the analog part sounded fine.  If you record at 24bit, edit at 24 bit, and then save to 16bit the software dithers... I mean it's free in software, go ahead and use it.   I've exported samples out of Audacity with and without dither, alternate the samples, and if I listen with my eyes closed I can't hear it. When you are going to less than 16 bit it probably makes a bigger difference.

Yes, I realize this is all signed integers instead of unsigned int, but why confuse the matter.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2012, 06:35:46 PM »
Yep two seperate issues.

I think one important point on dithering and real world use is that most anything we record will have analog noise that is significantly higher in level than the noise floor of the ADC, so when we record that analog noise effectively acts as very loud dither taking care of any quantization noise which would be much lower level anyway.  But all modern ADCs dither as do the softwares we use to manupulate things once recorded so that's really a dead issue and I think we agreed there anway.

But on the bit depth thing you are right in one sense that it's a matter of perspective and could be set up either way, but the reality is that 'full range' is set by the engineering standards of the medium and we don't get to change it at will.  Theoretically we could make an 8 bit system with a 100dB dynamic range which has very coarse loudness changes, or 32bit sytem with a total range of 50dB and way more incremental levels than necessary, but neither are real world options. PCM gear all uses the same 'standard' of each bit representing, what is it? something close to 6dB of additional range.   So with 16 bits we get something like 96dB of range between noise and full scale, and with 24 bits we get 144dB of range..  at least in the digital realm.  No analog equipment has that much range so the best we can get in reality with great studio converters is closer to 125dB or something, which would fit in about 21bits.  But 24 is an even multiple of 8 so it makes for easier computer manipulation of the files and isn't that wasteful with a few bits of noise at the bottom in the most optimistic case, or quite a few bits of noise down there with most anything we record around here.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2012, 06:58:26 PM »
Just thought of something that might help make that point.  Jon please correct me if this is wrong.

We've all had files with incorrect headers play at the wrong rate before.  Say a recording made with a sample rate of 48kHz played back at 44.1 so that it sounded slowed and pitch flat. When converting from one rate to another we need to do some math to divide one into the other, it's not like changing the bit depth of the file where we can just truncate the extra digits (and it still works with or without dither  ;))

If the change of signal amplitude value stored by each bit wasn't the same with 16 and 24 bit files, then we'd need algorithms to bit rate convert from one depth to the other.  Simply truncating the least significant bits wouldn't work.  If the amplitude value stored by each bit was different, we'd get the dynamic equivalent of playing back the file at the wrong sample rate- instead of pitch and speed change we'd get dynamic range expansion or compression.

Basically the non-linear transfer funtion of dynamic range Jon mentions.. I think!?  Really reaching the limits of my knowlege here.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2012, 02:40:26 AM »
I record 24/48 99% of the time. When I'm recording plays, orchestras, church recitals, acoustic stuff, etc, THEN I record 24/96

But IMO 24/48 is sufficient enough for recording shitty PA Systems :P ;D
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Offline taperdave

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2012, 03:23:39 PM »
ok, my question is this: If battery life and card capacity are not an issue and your DAW can handle the file sizes, etc. Is there any harm in recording 24/96 ?
I use Wavelab 6/Waves Mercury for mastering and dither etc.
I thought after reading through 5 pages of reasoned discourse that SmokinJoe had handed down the truth from on high  :laugh:, I mean, he had a graph for the love of strange medicine.  :laugh:
But alas even that soon was shrouded in uncertainty   :(
So is there a reason not to go 24/96 all the time, if capacity isn't an issue?
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2012, 10:09:35 PM »
...
So is there a reason not to go 24/96 all the time...?
...

(If you like, just read the bold parts.)

So, to rephrase, if there were no issues of cost or time or power supply or data storage or output format conversion etc., and the only concern is getting the best possible recording,
is it better to use 24/96 than 24/48?

Maybe?  Honestly, I *don't* have a full understanding of all of the nitty-gritty details, but in the Lavry paper, http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf , he's saying that sample rates like 192 kHz do not provide any better audio information and can increase errors. 
Lavry doesn't speak directly on 96 kHz.

My suspicion is that it ultimately depends on what any particular ADC can do.  If it's an inexpensive model like mine are, they're probably inferior and will probably create sampling errors at 96 kHz much like Lavry speaks about happening at 192 kHz in other devices. 
I suspect my low-end DR-100 will create more errors at 96 kHz than it will create a better representation of the analogue signal.  I bet the only way to really know is to test my particular unit.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2012, 05:51:24 PM »
But on the bit depth thing you are right in one sense that it's a matter of perspective and could be set up either way, but the reality is that 'full range' is set by the engineering standards of the medium and we don't get to change it at will.  Theoretically we could make an 8 bit system with a 100dB dynamic range which has very coarse loudness changes, or 32bit sytem with a total range of 50dB and way more incremental levels than necessary, but neither are real world options.

I think we can choose the "full range" of the A/D for our application, or amplify/attenuate the signal to match the A/D.  On the industrial side, I choose a 0-10v A/D to read a pressure transducer where 0-10v=0-100psi, but I use a different A/D to read millivolts and thermocouples.  The pressure transducer probably has a strain gauge on a diaphragm instead of a capacitance based capsule, but that tiny signal is amplified to match my A/D.  I could plug a ribbon mic directly into the back of my HD24... but it's a poor application because I know the mics output is small compared to my A/D's input range of +22dbu.  Most of us choose a packaged audio system, like a V3, or an R44 recorder, and we let the manufacturer make those choices for us.  I have no idea what it's internal A/D range is, and I don't really care, I adjust that analog section to match the signal to the A/D's range.  It's all just bits between +/- full scale.

Going back to my previous statements (2 pages ago) I'm really isolating just the A/D and disregarding any analog portion of the circuit.  Dynamic range and frequency response are attributes of the analog signal, either before the A/D or the digital equivalent after conversion.  The A/D just plots those XY points as accurately as it can at any given moment in time.  If it's a positive voltage you get positive numbers, negative voltage = negative numbers.  If the signal has low amplitude, you end up with small numbers, and you sample that rapidly.  What someone said a couple of pages ago was that 24bit by itself gives you more headroom, I say no... headroom belongs to the analog realm... I adjust the analog to match the A/D, headroom helps avoid clipping regardless of the A/D range.  If you want to mess with the signal do it at the analog stage before the A/D, or in a computer after the A/D.  But the A/D stage should be as accurate as possible.

I need to amend my statement about "hiss", where I assumed a real world practicality to "tapers" (99% of the people on this board), but I shouldn't have generalized.  In any kind of live setting there is considerable noise in the room... whether it's chatty drunks, or people sitting quietly listening... there is no such thing as "dead quiet".  People are breathing and other stuff... and that is generally louder than the self noise of my mics or preamp...  I never come close to 96db dynamic range, so running 16bit with 6 or 12 db of headroom is fine.  That applies to 99% of us, but not all.  In a studio with good analog gear, the quantization noise from 16 bit could get you, and then dithering is more important.  My primary beef is with the posts who make the 16bit tapers feel like second class citizens... they keep regurgitating the same rhetoric fed to them without thinking or understanding, and it's not relevant to most of the people on this board.  For most of us, a 16bit A/D would not be the weakest link in the chain.

Quote
If the change of signal amplitude value stored by each bit wasn't the same with 16 and 24 bit files, then we'd need algorithms to bit rate convert from one depth to the other.  Simply truncating the least significant bits wouldn't work.  If the amplitude value stored by each bit was different, we'd get the dynamic equivalent of playing back the file at the wrong sample rate- instead of pitch and speed change we'd get dynamic range expansion or compression.

Again it's all just percentage from +/- max, like sine wave values range from -1 to +1.  The algorithms to convert from one bit depth to another are so routine we just take them for granted.  For 16 > 24 bit, you simply pad with nulls.  That's an algorithm.  24bit > 16 you can truncate or apply a wide variety of dithering algorithms.  Stored in a wav file header is a block which tells you if you are reading 16bit or 24bit data... get that header wrong, and its scrambled digi-noise.  As I recall the 24bit RIFF file format is something like 16bit data for Left, 16bit data for right, than the 8 bits of LSD for right, and left.  Which is where my other analogy of 16bit data with 1/256 fractions comes in.  I'm familiar with it because I wrote code which rips through files to create what I hoped would be a better declipper/mousetrap (trying to save a particular recording, which didn't help much).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 05:53:36 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2012, 06:06:41 PM »

My suspicion is that it ultimately depends on what any particular ADC can do.  If it's an inexpensive model like mine are, they're probably inferior and will probably create sampling errors at 96 kHz much like Lavry speaks about happening at 192 kHz in other devices. 
I suspect my low-end DR-100 will create more errors at 96 kHz than it will create a better representation of the analogue signal.  I bet the only way to really know is to test my particular unit.

I think that's probably an incorrect assumption. The argument made against 192kHz, as I understand it, is not economical in nature or related to quality control, but rather that a sampling rate of 192kHz starts to reach some of the theoretical limitations of modern ADCs. These theoretical limitations do not come into play at lower sample rates.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2012, 10:37:19 AM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2012, 11:53:55 AM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2012, 12:24:02 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

how do you read that?  :lol
Mics:
DPA 4023 (Cardioid)
DPA 4028 (Subcardioid)
DPA 4018V (Supercardioid)
Earthworks TC25 (Omni) 

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Grace Design Lunatec V3 (Oade ACM)
Edirol UA-5 (bm2p+ Mod)

Recorders:
Sound Devices MixPre10 II
Edirol R-44 (Oade CM)
Sony PCM‑M10

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2012, 12:31:24 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

how do you read that?  :lol

Here's the documentation for the tests.

http://src.infinitewave.ca/help.html

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2012, 02:44:08 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2012, 03:02:51 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???

I saw what you did there.  :P

"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2012, 03:46:43 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???

I saw what you did there.  :P



HAHAHAH classic ;D
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http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2012, 04:27:13 PM »
Slightly off-topic question:

How do you determine how good an SRC is? Resample sine waves and compare the artifacts?

I'm lazy and compare existing test results.

I'm even lazier, and just do what Page's thinks is best...  so...  what do you think is best, Page???

I saw what you did there.  :P



LOL!!!  CLASSIC!!!

Terry
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Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2012, 04:45:55 PM »
I guess I should preface that by saying that:

1) I already have something that uses the Izotope algo for SRC.
2) I typically record at 44.1, but have on occasion gone higher.

So if I recorded above 44.1 (and that was my destination), and I didn't already have an Izotope product at my disposal, I'd look at Sox (which is both free & great).
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2012, 04:47:14 PM »
I guess I should preface that by saying that:

1) I already have something that uses the Izotope algo for SRC.
2) I typically record at 44.1, but have on occasion gone higher.

So if I recorded above 44.1 (and that was my destination), and I didn't already have an Izotope product at my disposal, I'd look at Sox (which is both free & great).

Going back and reading, there was talk about r8brain and someone suggested that it used Izo...  I doubt the free version does so...  How would you comp the free r8brain to any of the above???

Thanks,

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

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Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2012, 05:01:42 PM »
I guess I should preface that by saying that:

1) I already have something that uses the Izotope algo for SRC.
2) I typically record at 44.1, but have on occasion gone higher.

So if I recorded above 44.1 (and that was my destination), and I didn't already have an Izotope product at my disposal, I'd look at Sox (which is both free & great).

Going back and reading, there was talk about r8brain and someone suggested that it used Izo...  I doubt the free version does so...  How would you comp the free r8brain to any of the above???

Thanks,

Terry

no idea, never used it myself. Looking at the test results, ironically, it looks like the free version bests the pro one in noise terms... I wonder if the tests are on different versions or what went wrong there.

Look at the bright side, at least you're not using Sony Vegas.  :-X That's like an acid trip.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2012, 05:10:41 PM »

no idea, never used it myself. Looking at the test results, ironically, it looks like the free version bests the pro one in noise terms... I wonder if the tests are on different versions or what went wrong there.

Look at the bright side, at least you're not using Sony Vegas.  :-X That's like an acid trip.

LOL!  Thanks! 

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2012, 05:49:08 PM »
Like WOW man, I'm so aliasing!

quote from the last paragraph of the test result documentation -
..Most of the tested algorithms provide reasonably good conversion quality, with the graphs showing very low distortion levels. Performance measurement almost doesn't correlate with the price of the product, in all price ranges there are good and poor-quality units. It is not always possible to judge subjective quality from the presented measurement results.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2012, 02:00:55 PM »
Going back a few pages, the topic was brought up about low pass filters.  It's important to have a low pass filter before an A/D to avoid aliasing.  Ideally it would be a very sharp drop.  If you are recording at 44.1k, you would like to capture everything up to at least 20k, not have a slow decay curve between 16-20k.  This presented the question, how good is the one in my R4?  In my SRC software?  So I did a little home experiment which almost anyone can recreate, no special equipment required.

Cut to the punchline... 95% (maybe 99%) of what we have been discussing in this thread becomes a non-issue.  The LPF on my recorder is plenty steep enough, so is my SRC, and the SRC's seem to do a really great job.

Generate a "standard sweep":
In Audacity, there is a menu option "Generate -> Tone".  Create a 16k sine wave, 30 seconds is fine, amplitude of 0.2.  Do the same for 17k, 18k, 19k and 20k.  Now you have 5 sweeps and when you mix them all together it's an amplitude of 1.0, and these discrete building blocks combined.  I did this at 44k because the anything in 16k-20k can be completely represented at 44k.  But just for the heck of it, I repeated at 96k, and I was able to see that there really was no difference between the generated sweeps, so I stuck with the 44k one.

Run that into your recorder
I ran TRS cables from my sound card, an M-audio Profire Lightbridge, to my Busman Tmod R4.  Not the best DAC, but I figured I would try the easy one first, and if I thought it mattered I'd try other ones I have (I later decided this was good enough).  Press PLAY on the computer, press RECORD on the R4.  Not synchronized, but as long as you get 25 seconds out of the 30, close enough.  Do runs with R4 at 44k, 48k, and 96k.  I also repeated the set using SPDIF out of the sound card > SPDIF into the R4.  It's common knowledge that the R4 resamples DIGI in, so a 44k digi signal can be resampled to 96k... just curious how that would compare.

Compare the recorded sweeps:
Pulling up the recordings from the R4... the first thing I noticed is that I can see a visible difference... interesting.  In the picture "3wavs" 44k is at the top, 48k mid, and 96k at the bottom.  Then look at the individual plots.  The 44k looks very similar to the standard, and the 48k and 96k plots have high frequency resonances which aren't in the original.  By definition, that's distortion, but realistically I can't hear it, so it probably doesn't matter.  Then look at the 20k peaks on the plots... they are all coming up to pretty much 0 db, including the one I recorded at 44.1k, which means there is not a low pass filter reducing it at 20k.  It's hard to tell for sure in the graphs, but in the next post, I have the data exported as text files.  If you compare the 20k peak on the generated standard to the 20k peak on the analog recording, it's off by about 0.1db.  I'm going to call that a result of analog transfer rather than a result of LPF rolloff.

Then I resampled the 96k file to 44.1k using "ssrc high precision".  That's what I've been using for years, first on linux, then on windows.  Luckily it's one of the shining stars in Page's comp studies.  The bottom line is that the resampled one is virtually identical to the standard, and the one recorded at 44.1k.   I kind of thought these SRC software options were a necessary evil, the output of which is about like adding an analog gen.  I'm proven wrong.  They are excellent, at least in this sample.
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2012, 02:07:00 PM »
Cool work, SmokinJoe.  Think you could provide that combined sweep file?  It might be interesting to let others reproduce the test using their own equipment.  (And we'd get more easily compared info if we started with the same initial file.)

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2012, 02:14:14 PM »
Attached are the text files, same data as the pictures, except you can pull up 2 text files and see how close the peaks are numerically.

The generated standard file is at http://joe.bouchard.com/tunes/testtone16-20k_2444.flac
That's kind of my temporary drop off space, I can leave it there for a while, but eventually will delete it.  Anyone have a good place to store it long term?

By the way... how did the "digi-transfer with resample" results compare to that analog transfer results.  Very, very, close, including the little high freq aberrations are there, same as the analog results, which I didn't expect.  I think what that really says is that the FFT used to define frequency from a mixed signal creates them more than anything else... it's a math problem during analysis in Audacity, more so than an A/D problem.

By the way... I'm 48 years old, been working in machine shops, shooting guns, and listening to rock music most of my life.  I can barely hear the 16k when I know it's there.  I definitely can't hear 17-20k, and certainly not the aberrations at 22 or 24k.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 02:42:30 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2012, 04:30:47 PM »
Thanks! 

I can definitely hear this stuff -- luckily at my age -- but I know my playback is currently... "sub-par".

I've put it here, if that's OK:  http://homepage.mac.com/mosquito/sj-testtone16-20k_2444.flac  It's only a few megs, so I'll leave it there indefinitely (but can't promise to pay for that hosting forever).

I'll see if I can record this into my DR-100 tomorrow and we can see what it does here.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2012, 07:25:21 PM »
mosquito, taking you completely at your word that you hear a difference between 48 kHz and 96 kHz sampling, to me there are two big, unanswered questions.

One is: Do you have a sense of which recording is more accurate (i.e. within the range of frequencies that humans can hear, which recording has less difference from the signal that was fed into the recorder)? There's no reason to assume that a higher sampling rate necessarily gives a more accurate recording; all other things being equal, a higher sampling rate leaves less time for a converter to settle on an accurate value for each sample. So this can really fall out either way, or be a toss-up.

The other question, which is maybe more fundamental, is: How do you know that you're hearing the difference between two sampling rates and not just the difference between the way your particular recorder behaves at those sampling rates? Do you hear similar differences when you use other recorders? Are there any recorders with both sampling rates where you don't hear that difference, or where you hear "a different difference" so to speak?

--best regards
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 12:16:43 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2012, 06:59:56 AM »
DSatz, to be completely honest when I ran that test I did hear differences between several recordings.  *However* I wish I had read that Lavry paper before I'd posted that here because it gave me pause after I did read it and my previous post can sound like I think what I heard was necessarily better.  After I read the Lavry paper I remembered more of what happened.  (And somewhere in the intervening years I let myself gloss over what I thought was a personal limitation.)  My original intention was to state that I did hear a difference when I tested this, but didn't intend to imply what, in fact, I did hear.

I cannot say for sure what caused the differences I heard and I do have to say that I *liked* the 48 kHz recordings the best.  There was a marked difference from the 96 kHz recordings -- and I *thought* I could hear a similar but ever so slight difference between 96 and 192.  What I heard was a very quiet "brittle squeal" that started somewhere above 16 kHz and accompanied the lower-frequency recorded sounds.  Also, the higher rate recordings sounded "less crisp yet edgier", if that makes some sense.   I remember being disappointed... not just because the difference I heard was less pleasing but also because I was afraid that my supposed "better recordings" were not "making sense" to my ears.

For the specific questions:  ONE:  I don't know which was/were more accurate compared to the source.  I didn't compare the data files.  I wanted to know A) Could I hear a difference? and B) Did I like the difference?  Since my answers were "Yes" and "No", that was enough for me to begin choosing lower sample rates.  I didn't have the facility or resources to compare more 24-bit devices so I didn't investigate further.  OTHER: I don't know if I heard a difference between sample rates.  I did hear a difference between the playback of different recordings that used different sample rates and I wasn't speaking so precisely earlier in this thread.  Mea culpa if anyone feels as if I've misled them. 

For comparisons since then or now even, I haven't made any but would like to be able to and I might see if I can arrange something in the next few months.  If I can even hear this fine stuff now -- I *am* 45 and have been noticing changes to my eyesight, etc lately -- I suspect that I'll be able to hear differences again with the low-end recorders I'm used to using and may even be able to hear "different differences" but I think I won't hear the same sorts of things with some professional equipment I have access to right now because now, after reading the Lavry paper and letting some of the ideas in it stew, I believe what I heard from the recordings at higher sample rates were artifacts produced by my good, but ultimately lower-quality equipment, but I can't say if it was the PMD-671 or the FA-101.

--

FWIW, The recordings were made with my Marantz PMD-671 (no mods) and a pair of Rode NT5 mics.  It was running off of new batteries and recording 24 bit at 48, 96, and 192 kHz.  I recorded some ambient noise from inside my office building -- in the middle of the night, probably on a Saturday night with some sound treatment and nearby control over the HVAC -- and I recorded some music that was played back and I recorded a bit of guitar strumming.  I listened to the playback with an iMac using Soundtrack Pro and Sound Studio > Edirol FA-101 > M-Audio BX5a and Etymotic ER-4s.  I think I also compared with the iMac's built-in DSP, but it made everything nearly indistinguishable and by that time I would have been listening intently for a couple of hours and shouldn't trust any judgements from that.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2012, 07:50:07 PM »
i've heard something about 88.2khz being an ideal sample rate b/c downsampling/converting is very bad for your recording.  Why 88.2kz?  b/c when you downsample to burn to CD (44.1khz) it is an exact equal share 88.2 and 44.1 - balanced.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2012, 08:56:18 PM »
So assuming no SRC will take place, strictly for the sake of the master recording/posterity/etc., and while it may be overkill 99.9% of the time, can it hurt to record [specifically PA music] at 96kHz?

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2012, 10:29:18 PM »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2012, 04:24:33 AM »
I have a question which is slightly related to this topic:

Does recording in a higher bitrate and/or sampling rate consume the batteries faster? I have a Zoom Q3HD, but I suppose the battery-consumption pattern would be identical in most recorders.

Thanks.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2012, 07:17:32 AM »
not sure on the battery question, but I sure like 24/44.1 for recording

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2012, 08:05:01 AM »
Does recording in a higher bitrate and/or sampling rate consume the batteries faster?

I haven't tested to confirm but I'd put money on "yes", as it is writing more data at a faster rate to the card.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2012, 09:03:20 AM »
^^^  In the PCM-M10 manual, there is a table giving some battery run-times at different bit depths and sampling rates.  Generally, battery life decreases as the others increase, but it is not entirely straightforward (at least for Sony's tests on the M10)...

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2012, 12:06:13 PM »
Does recording in a higher bitrate and/or sampling rate consume the batteries faster?

I haven't tested to confirm but I'd put money on "yes", as it is writing more data at a faster rate to the card.
Yes, it does.  I did rip some vinyl last night and recorded at 96/24 for the heck of it -- battery life seemed to drop closer to twice as fast (i.e., with Enerloop batteries that normally give me about 8-10 hours at 48/24, it was cut closer to in half of that).

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2012, 06:06:04 PM »
Since it's been a few years since I last checked with different gear, I did a 24/28 - 24/94 recording comparison last night on a couple pieces of avantgarde classical material in a pristine acoustic.  Checking this afternoon on the big system and on my best phones (Mytek DAC>Senn HD650) I might hear a subtle difference, but can't really be sure.  Need to do some more listening and file analysis. They both sound really good.  Unfortunately it isn't something I can post. 
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2012, 06:35:40 PM »
Since it's been a few years since I last checked with different gear, I did a 24/28 - 24/94 recording comparison last night on a couple pieces of avantgarde classical material in a pristine acoustic.  Checking this afternoon on the big system and on my best phones (Mytek DAC>Senn HD650) I might hear a subtle difference, but can't really be sure.  Need to do some more listening and file analysis. They both sound really good.  Unfortunately it isn't something I can post.
In all honesty, I think the "differences" will be quite minimal (if noticeable at all) but I figured since I had the room, and this was the last time I was transferring these records (especially after getting them cleaned on a VPI 16.5), I might as well do it right.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2012, 05:47:27 PM »
Thanks to all who answered to my battery-related question :)
I think I will stop recording at 96kHz (keeping the 24-bit setting). From what I've read -here and in other places- it really makes not much sense recording in 96kHz when there's a million steps (poor PAs, poor cables, poor connections, poor recorder, poor transfer, poor final-listening device or conditions...too many possible failures) that can ruin the extra bit of quality. And reocrding in a lower sample rate allows for more storage and less battery consumption. So... Bye bye 96kHz :D
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #103 on: March 11, 2012, 05:51:13 PM »
Thanks to all who answered to my battery-related question :)
I think I will stop recording at 96kHz (keeping the 24-bit setting). From what I've read -here and in other places- it really makes not much sense recording in 96kHz when there's a million steps (poor PAs, poor cables, poor connections, poor recorder, poor transfer, poor final-listening device or conditions...too many possible failures) that can ruin the extra bit of quality. And reocrding in a lower sample rate allows for more storage and less battery consumption. So... Bye bye 96kHz :D

I think somebody mentioned that _if_ you were in a good studio setting where you could control things, 96/24 might make sense.  I know when I recently transferred my vinyl collection, I couldn't really hear _THAT MUCH_ of a difference between 96/24 and 48/24.  I just wasted the bandwidth and space because I could.  Last night I ran a show where I had board access and just kept everything at 48/24 - there seems to be little benefit going above that (especially with the equipment many of us run).

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2012, 07:02:20 PM »
Since it's been a few years since I last checked with different gear, I did a 24/28 - 24/94 recording comparison last night on a couple pieces of avantgarde classical material in a pristine acoustic.  Checking this afternoon on the big system and on my best phones (Mytek DAC>Senn HD650) I might hear a subtle difference, but can't really be sure.  Need to do some more listening and file analysis. They both sound really good.  Unfortunately it isn't something I can post.

This is something of "cheating yourself" i think. Such comparison makes sense when you sit under your phones and another person chooses the samples and you don'T know if a 96 kHZ file is running to your ears or not. I bet you will hear no difference under that scheme...
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2012, 08:10:06 PM »
Since it's been a few years since I last checked with different gear, I did a 24/28 - 24/94 recording comparison last night on a couple pieces of avantgarde classical material in a pristine acoustic.  Checking this afternoon on the big system and on my best phones (Mytek DAC>Senn HD650) I might hear a subtle difference, but can't really be sure.  Need to do some more listening and file analysis. They both sound really good.  Unfortunately it isn't something I can post.

This is something of "cheating yourself" i think. Such comparison makes sense when you sit under your phones and another person chooses the samples and you don'T know if a 96 kHZ file is running to your ears or not. I bet you will hear no difference under that scheme...

Yeah, ABX testing is a wonderful revealer.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2012, 08:11:51 PM »
I disregard data storage as a problem (try doing some HD video and the 'waste' of 24/96 will be insignificant). I certainly can't hear the difference between 24/48 and 24/96 on most recordings. On a few I can though.

But the main reason I've used 24/96 for years and always save those raw master files is that you never know what willl happen in the future. It's kind of the same reason you should never throw out an analog master. Cause you never know what new transfer metod will arrive in the future.

Who knows what will be possible to pull out of an audio signal in the future. Who knows if those signals we can't hear today will make a difference in whatever that process might be. Maybe in 50 years everyone will be able to hear better through some ear software. Maybe they will be able to pull some kind of instrument direction out of any audio in a way we can't even think of today. Or something else that makes no sense today. Try running some of what has happened in the audio/video world in the last 25 years by someone still living in 1985.

I don't really imagine many of my recordings will be interesting to anyone 50-100 years from now but maybe there is the one. Why not give all of them the best odds.

I actually recorded almost all my DAT masters in 16/48 instead of 16/44 back in the day. While not a major difference now I'm glad I did. When I started with DATs it just made sense to me to use the best possible since I only copied to analog cassettes then. When computerburned cds came along it became a bit of a hassle but I stuck with it and eventually it stopped being a problem again.
 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2012, 02:09:19 PM »
Thanks to all who answered to my battery-related question :)
I think I will stop recording at 96kHz (keeping the 24-bit setting). From what I've read -here and in other places- it really makes not much sense recording in 96kHz when there's a million steps (poor PAs, poor cables, poor connections, poor recorder, poor transfer, poor final-listening device or conditions...too many possible failures) that can ruin the extra bit of quality. And reocrding in a lower sample rate allows for more storage and less battery consumption. So... Bye bye 96kHz :D

I think somebody mentioned that _if_ you were in a good studio setting where you could control things, 96/24 might make sense.  I know when I recently transferred my vinyl collection, I couldn't really hear _THAT MUCH_ of a difference between 96/24 and 48/24.  I just wasted the bandwidth and space because I could.  Last night I ran a show where I had board access and just kept everything at 48/24 - there seems to be little benefit going above that (especially with the equipment many of us run).

That's as opposite as recording in a packed venue and in ste*lth (or at least not as conveniently as on a studio) mode... ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2012, 04:05:12 PM »
I disregard data storage as a problem (try doing some HD video and the 'waste' of 24/96 will be insignificant). I certainly can't hear the difference between 24/48 and 24/96 on most recordings. On a few I can though.

Can you describe the differences you hear?  Just curious: I can't hear a difference myself.

But the main reason I've used 24/96 for years and always save those raw master files is that you never know what willl happen in the future. It's kind of the same reason you should never throw out an analog master. Cause you never know what new transfer metod will arrive in the future.

Who knows what will be possible to pull out of an audio signal in the future. Who knows if those signals we can't hear today will make a difference in whatever that process might be. Maybe in 50 years everyone will be able to hear better through some ear software. Maybe they will be able to pull some kind of instrument direction out of any audio in a way we can't even think of today. Or something else that makes no sense today. Try running some of what has happened in the audio/video world in the last 25 years by someone still living in 1985.

If you want to record at 96 kHz, by all means do it.  But don't do it because you will somehow "future-proof" your recordings.  The laws of physics and the physiology of hearing aren't going to change (well, in the case of the physiology, at least not in a meaningful time frame).  On top of that, most instruments aren't generating any energy at very high frequencies, and most mics aren't capturing what's up there anyway...

And if that is the argument, why not DSD or 192 kHz? 

Just my two cents, YMMV, etc.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2012, 05:06:01 PM »
Since it's been a few years since I last checked with different gear, I did a 24/28 - 24/94 recording comparison last night on a couple pieces of avantgarde classical material in a pristine acoustic.  Checking this afternoon on the big system and on my best phones (Mytek DAC>Senn HD650) I might hear a subtle difference, but can't really be sure.  Need to do some more listening and file analysis. They both sound really good.  Unfortunately it isn't something I can post.

This is something of "cheating yourself" i think. Such comparison makes sense when you sit under your phones and another person chooses the samples and you don'T know if a 96 kHZ file is running to your ears or not. I bet you will hear no difference under that scheme...

Yeah, ABX testing is a wonderful revealer.

Agreed.  Yet my casual listening tests of the material I recorded this weekend were less about the existence of any perceptual difference at all in and of itself, and more about confirming my doubts about the significance of any difference when weighed against a 200% storage space burden increase for a near best-case scenario.  If I had been convinced I heard much of a significant difference, I'd be more motivated to make the effort to set up an ABX test to confirm or refute it.

I also say that now that my playback is to the point where I doubt it is the limiting factor in the perception of the potential differences.  The limiting factors in this case are likely to be either the limits of the recording gear and setup I used, the loss of sensitivity of my aging ears, or the hard limits of even youthful human hearing perception.  The first is easily checked in a partial sense at least by looking to see if there is information captured above ~18-20kHz in the at the 96kHz files, but I haven’t gotten around to that yet. 

One thing I don't doubt is that there was most certainly ultrasonic energy produced by the instrumentation I recorded for my tests this weekend on Friday and Saturday in the form of inharmonic high frequency energy from things like cymbals, triangles, chimes other struck metallic percussion, and harmonics from horns, possibly violins and other instruments.  And compared to this classical percussion consort type material, there is probably even more ultrasonic energy present from the cymbals and rim shots when I make on-stage recordings in close proximity to jazz drum kits, and from the often harmonically brighter timbre of jazz brass pointed mic-wards, but in both cases I’m talking about direct radiation of acoustic instruments known to produce significant enegry above 20kHz, not PA amplified/re-amplified sound.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2012, 10:03:43 PM »
I love this thread :)

I used to run 24/44.1, and believe it or not, got bitched at it by someone downloading my source, for not recording in 24/48 :P

I do now record in 24/48 and will probably do so forever ;) Besides, 24/48 is a standard for BOTH DVD-Audio and DVD-Video ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2012, 11:43:10 PM »
I did a 24/28 - 24/94 recording comparison last night
How typo was that? yanowatimeen. thanks for the slide.  :P

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2012, 02:52:04 PM »
I’m talking about direct radiation of acoustic instruments known to produce significant enegry above 20kHz, not PA amplified/re-amplified sound.

Thats why i mentioned on first post in that thread:

"Recording full acoustic music or nature sounds, 96 kHz makes sense, or running SBD pull if the deck if full 96 khz in the chain", or Rendering music on VST instruments.

For stack taping far away that the PA sound simply overdoes the instruments, 96 KHz makes no sense (for me)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2012, 05:09:48 PM »
One thing I don't doubt is that there was most certainly ultrasonic energy produced by the instrumentation I recorded for my tests this weekend on Friday and Saturday in the form of inharmonic high frequency energy from things like cymbals, triangles, chimes other struck metallic percussion, and harmonics from horns, possibly violins and other instruments.  And compared to this classical percussion consort type material, there is probably even more ultrasonic energy present from the cymbals and rim shots when I make on-stage recordings in close proximity to jazz drum kits, and from the often harmonically brighter timbre of jazz brass pointed mic-wards, but in both cases I’m talking about direct radiation of acoustic instruments known to produce significant enegry above 20kHz, not PA amplified/re-amplified sound.

The ultrasonics are definitely there, but, for most instruments, only a few tenths or hundredths of a percent of their total power is above 20 kHz.  And that's generally measured quite close (a few feet in the articles I have read) and at low levels.  Cymbals, like you mentioned, are the big exception.  Rimshots and some of the percussion have a moderate proportion of their power above 20 kHz (5 - 6% for rimshots, maybe 1% for a triangle).  Horns are also up there, but still not usually more than 1%. 

Moving away from the musicians, the levels of those ultrasonics will drop pretty quickly.  If your mics, and the rest of your chain, can reproduce those frequencies with any fidelity, on-stage would be the place to record them.  Further away, a lot of that stuff probably drops down to the level of system noise.  And, as you noted, it's all moot if you're taping the PA...

Of course, nobody can hear it anyway! 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2012, 05:36:52 PM »
Of course, nobody can hear it anyway!

Most likely not.  But it should be taken into consideration in the the engineering and design of recording equipment and the way it is used to best effect.  In any case, as much as I understand the arguments and theory, nothing beats testing and confirming things for oneself. And even then I still consider it a practical rather than an absolute conclusion.

For anyone interested, here is a good resource on the measured output of instruments >20kHz-

"There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz: A Survey of Musical-Instrument Spectra to 102.4 kHz"
 
At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach the measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Survey includes French horn, trumpet, violin, oboe, crash cymbals, sibilant speech, claves, a drum rimshot, triangle, jangling keys, and piano. Includes short description of others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound, and points out that even if ultrasound be taken as having no effect on perception of live sound, yet its presence may still pose a problem to the audio equipment designer and recording engineer.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2012, 05:41:24 PM »
I consider it a positive indication when the pets start turning their ears and looking around with interst when I playback some of my recordings.  I should figure out a way to ABX test the cat.  ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2012, 05:45:43 PM »
I have no stake in this and don't understand the physics in the least so its only barely comprehensible, but am curious what people have to say about this souce (http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html) posted in another thread but didn't seem to get much attention.

It says recording the ultrasonics at the higher frequency is actually very slightly detrimental to average playback systems.  Though, I didn't try to really  understand what intermodulation distortion is and how its reproduced on normal playback above 48khz.


One thing I don't doubt is that there was most certainly ultrasonic energy produced by the instrumentation I recorded for my tests this weekend on Friday and Saturday in the form of inharmonic high frequency energy from things like cymbals, triangles, chimes other struck metallic percussion, and harmonics from horns, possibly violins and other instruments.  And compared to this classical percussion consort type material, there is probably even more ultrasonic energy present from the cymbals and rim shots when I make on-stage recordings in close proximity to jazz drum kits, and from the often harmonically brighter timbre of jazz brass pointed mic-wards, but in both cases I’m talking about direct radiation of acoustic instruments known to produce significant enegry above 20kHz, not PA amplified/re-amplified sound.

The ultrasonics are definitely there, but, for most instruments, only a few tenths or hundredths of a percent of their total power is above 20 kHz.  And that's generally measured quite close (a few feet in the articles I have read) and at low levels.  Cymbals, like you mentioned, are the big exception.  Rimshots and some of the percussion have a moderate proportion of their power above 20 kHz (5 - 6% for rimshots, maybe 1% for a triangle).  Horns are also up there, but still not usually more than 1%. 

Moving away from the musicians, the levels of those ultrasonics will drop pretty quickly.  If your mics, and the rest of your chain, can reproduce those frequencies with any fidelity, on-stage would be the place to record them.  Further away, a lot of that stuff probably drops down to the level of system noise.  And, as you noted, it's all moot if you're taping the PA...

Of course, nobody can hear it anyway!

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2012, 06:08:15 PM »
I have no stake in this and don't understand the physics in the least so its only barely comprehensible, but am curious what people have to say about this souce (http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html) posted in another thread but didn't seem to get much attention.

It says recording the ultrasonics at the higher frequency is actually very slightly detrimental to average playback systems.  Though, I didn't try to really  understand what intermodulation distortion is and how its reproduced on normal playback above 48khz.


Thanks for the article! I will read it later in depth, but took a quick glance and it's definitely interesting. I think I already pointed this out in this thread, but...

The 24/192kHz format has been universally panned by critics. Many will tell you that it is clearly inferior to 24/96kHz and there is some science (or at least intarwebz science) that supports the claim that 192kHz is actually pushing and exceeding the theoretical limits of the modern ADC. Metaphorically, we're red-lining the RPMs and the engine is starting to overheat thus creating errors in the audio data.

24/96kHz does not suffer from this real-world performance limitation and is thought to be the superior format for anything that can hear issues with a 192kHz sampling rate.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2012, 06:14:58 PM »

Thanks for the article! I will read it later in depth, but took a quick glance and it's definitely interesting. I think I already pointed this out in this thread, but...

The 24/192kHz format has been universally panned by critics. Many will tell you that it is clearly inferior to 24/96kHz and there is some science (or at least intarwebz science) that supports the claim that 192kHz is actually pushing and exceeding the theoretical limits of the modern ADC. Metaphorically, we're red-lining the RPMs and the engine is starting to overheat thus creating errors in the audio data.

24/96kHz does not suffer from this real-world performance limitation and is thought to be the superior format for anything that can hear issues with a 192kHz sampling rate.

Okay, thanks.

Someone else posted the article, but I didn't realize the issues brought up were more characteristic of 24/192 and not the difference between 48khz and 96khz.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2012, 10:07:41 PM »
I've read several convincing (to me) arguments that a final delivery format of say 18 or 20 bits and a sample rate of about 60kHz effectively addresses all the real world applied engineering issues. 24/96 is pretty close to that without much additional wasted overhead and is an accepted standard. 16/44.1 as a delivery format is good enough for most uses as I see it.  I think the differences people hear between CD and higher-res formats is due to differences in mastering and more attention payed to the details of getting it right for hi-res, and partly the legacy of some older CD recordings that are not up to the quality of what can be done with modern equipment.

Recording and processing is a different thing though and has seperate issues than delivery format.  We all know the argument for more than 16 bits offering useful recording and processing headroom, and oversampling to higher rates is important in convesion and processing for filtering.  Less compelling to me is the question of if it makes sense to record at 96kHz or not if storage space isn't an issue, given my gear, the recording environment, the processing I'll do, etc.  I'm getting more motivated to setup a proper ABX test, but that's somewhat challenging to do as I'd need to run identical recorders at seperate rates. 
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2012, 10:05:55 AM »
For anyone interested, here is a good resource on the measured output of instruments >20kHz-

"There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz: A Survey of Musical-Instrument Spectra to 102.4 kHz"
 
At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach the measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Survey includes French horn, trumpet, violin, oboe, crash cymbals, sibilant speech, claves, a drum rimshot, triangle, jangling keys, and piano. Includes short description of others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound, and points out that even if ultrasound be taken as having no effect on perception of live sound, yet its presence may still pose a problem to the audio equipment designer and recording engineer.


That's an interesting paper.  Together with the Lavry white papers and an excellent physiology course in college, it forms the basis of my understanding of this whole issue (although I have read a lot of other stuff at this point).  One thing I would note about it, however, is that it has not been peer-reviewed.  He says that people involved in standards-setting wanted it to be available as soon as possible.  It seems to me, however, that he would still want to submit it to a professional journal (and I don't think a preliminary release of data precludes that).  Perhaps unfair of me, but I tend to think there is some flaw in his methodology that he fears would undermine his results and/or conclusions if subjected to review...

EDIT:

I have no stake in this and don't understand the physics in the least so its only barely comprehensible, but am curious what people have to say about this souce (http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html) posted in another thread but didn't seem to get much attention.

It says recording the ultrasonics at the higher frequency is actually very slightly detrimental to average playback systems.  Though, I didn't try to really  understand what intermodulation distortion is and how its reproduced on normal playback above 48khz.


Thanks for the article! I will read it later in depth, but took a quick glance and it's definitely interesting. I think I already pointed this out in this thread, but...

The 24/192kHz format has been universally panned by critics. Many will tell you that it is clearly inferior to 24/96kHz and there is some science (or at least intarwebz science) that supports the claim that 192kHz is actually pushing and exceeding the theoretical limits of the modern ADC. Metaphorically, we're red-lining the RPMs and the engine is starting to overheat thus creating errors in the audio data.

24/96kHz does not suffer from this real-world performance limitation and is thought to be the superior format for anything that can hear issues with a 192kHz sampling rate.

As I read it, this author thinks there is no benefit to going over 44.1 or 48 kHz.  Obviously, given the almost ten pages we have devoted to it this thread (and many similar ones), that's debatable.  His line of reasoning does seem pretty solid, though...
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 10:31:45 AM by aaronji »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #121 on: March 14, 2012, 10:30:57 AM »
..curious what people have to say about this souce (http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html)

Just got a chance to take a look.. interesing and well thought out, need to review it more in depth, some good links in there.  Thanks for posting this.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #122 on: March 14, 2012, 05:34:14 PM »
I'm getting more motivated to setup a proper ABX test, but that's somewhat challenging to do as I'd need to run identical recorders at seperate rates.

Maybe the easier way choose a band which releases in 24/96 (as FLAC download), and other formats like normal 16/44 for CD, and maybe lossy 320 Mp3. Buy one track in all that formats and do the test.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2012, 05:56:53 PM »
I have done that with Phish sbds. The 24/96 flacs are compressed and have a dynamic range around 50-60db. They also don't show information above 22khz when analyzed in Wavelab.  Basically an unecessarily large file that costs more, but sonically not worth the extra costs. Marketing genius, but not worth it in reality. 48khz sampling already captures up to 24khz of high end, and no recorders I know of have analog capability above that, so what is 96khz capturing?       
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2012, 07:05:17 PM »
I have done that with Phish sbds. The 24/96 flacs are compressed and have a dynamic range around 50-60db. They also don't show information above 22khz when analyzed in Wavelab.  Basically an unecessarily large file that costs more, but sonically not worth the extra costs. Marketing genius, but not worth it in reality.

I think the same thing about most music today... especially vinyl's pressed from the digital masters.  ::)

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2012, 07:10:48 PM »
I'm getting more motivated to setup a proper ABX test, but that's somewhat challenging to do as I'd need to run identical recorders at seperate rates.

Maybe the easier way choose a band which releases in 24/96 (as FLAC download), and other formats like normal 16/44 for CD, and maybe lossy 320 Mp3. Buy one track in all that formats and do the test.

I could do that with the 24/96 files I've already recorded, which would be a better test as I know my recording situation had instrument created frequencies present >20kHz  and know the setup, gear used, and all processing of the files.  In that case, to eliminate as many other variables as possible, I would take a copy of the original 24/96 file, downsample it to 48 or 44.1 and upsample again to 96kHz.  I'd then ABX test that file with the original.  But that isn't the test I want to make as it would simply be duplicating the already tested and refuted audibility of a standard 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A loop inserted into a high-res playback chain.  I accept the results of that double-blind study, which concluded the insertion is inaudible, so duplicating that doesn't interest me.

What I still wonder about is the original capture conversion of 48 vs 96 kHz using my particular equipment.. not because I think any ultrasonic information may be audible or that the high-quality resampling I can do on the computer may be audible, but because the recording equipment I'm using is modest and the ADCs in the recorders may perform better at 96 than 48 (or vice-versa) for a number of reasons.  As I understand it, the main reason is that the nescesary anti-aliasing filtering can be less steep and easier to implement at 96kHz than 48kHz since the available transition band from 20KHz up to the half-sampling rate frequency is bigger.  That's covered in the blog achalsey linked to above.  Here's the illustrative image posted there-


Above: Whiteboard diagram from A Digital Media Primer for Geeks illustrating the transition band width available for a 48kHz ADC/DAC (left) and a 96kHz ADC/DAC (right).

So it's really more a test of how well the modest ADCs in some of my equipment work.  For example I wonder about the real-world performance of the analog low-pass filter before (or integrated in) the ADC chip used in the Tascam DR2d I use frequently (now selling for ~$100).  I would wonder much less about high-quality ADC's like a Mytek, Lavry, etc. where far more resources are available for top quality analog filtering beore the ADC chip.  It's somewhat ironic I suppose that it's likely to be the inexpensive equipment where recording at 96kHz may make a difference, whereas it's less likey to make a difference with higher end gear.  But it makes sense when considering that the filtering must be done in the analog stage, and good quality high-slope analog filters are more difficult and costly to implement.

..48khz sampling already captures up to 24khz of high end, and no recorders I know of have analog capability above that, so what is 96khz capturing?
  See the graphs above.  The anti-aliasing lowpass filter must exclued all signal above half the sampling rate, so response tapers off as you approach that frequency.  Practically, you can never really record all the way up to 24kHz at a 48KHz rate since the filter cannot be infinitely steep.  The advantage of higher rates is easier to implement low pass filters with lower slopes, not capturing higher frequencies- one of the main points being made in the blog achalsey linked above.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 07:18:24 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline notlance

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #126 on: March 15, 2012, 07:34:33 PM »
"As I understand it, the main reason is that the nescesary anti-aliasing filtering can be less steep and easier to implement at 96kHz than 48kHz since the available transition band from 20KHz up to the half-sampling rate frequency is bigger."

I have read reasoning similar to the above time after time on various audio forums, and it is not applicable to the ADC design used for, oh, about 20 years now.  Many-pole, i.e. “brick wall”, analog filters are almost never used anymore since most ADC oversample.  (I hesitate to say “all current audio ADCs oversample” since I don’t know how every manufacturer has designed their ADC, but I would like to know why you’d implement and ADC that does NOT oversample.)

Oversampling Benefits
• Almost no stringent requirements imposed on analog building blocks
• Takes advantage of the availability of low cost, low power digital filtering
• Relaxed transition band requirements for analog anti-aliasing filters
• Reduced baseband quantization noise power
• Allows trading speed for resolution

An oversampling ADC can greatly reduce the order of analog anti-aliasing filters.  For example, 44.1 kHz/24 bit implemented by a 256 times oversampling ADC can use a 3-pole analog anti-aliasing filters (18 dB/octave).  3-pole filters are well understood and are cheap and easy to implement.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #127 on: March 15, 2012, 08:35:19 PM »
Oversampling Benefits
• Almost no stringent requirements imposed on analog building blocks
• Takes advantage of the availability of low cost, low power digital filtering
• Relaxed transition band requirements for analog anti-aliasing filters
• Reduced baseband quantization noise power
• Allows trading speed for resolution

It's considered common courtesy to cite your source(s) when quoting others.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #128 on: March 15, 2012, 08:59:34 PM »
OK, here is my source:

http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~ee247/fa09/files07/lectures/L23_2_f09.pdf

These are lecture notes from lecture 23 of the UC Berkeley class EE247, which is a graduate level class with this description:

EE247:  Analysis and Design of VLSI Analog-Digital Interface Integrated Circuits. (3)   Three hours of lecture per week. Prerequisites: 140. Architectural and circuit level design and analysis of integrated analog-to-digital and digital-to-analog interfaces in CMOS and BiCMOS VLSI technology. Analog-digital converters, digital-analog converters, sample/hold amplifiers, continuous and switched-capacitor filters. RF integrated electronics including synthesizers, LNA's, and baseband processing. Low power mixed signal design. Data communications functions including clock recovery.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2012, 05:44:08 PM »
i've been in the camp that thinks there is little to no benefit to 24/96 vs 24/48 (for live concert recording) without ever having tried it. :facepalm: 

so last night i was going to a one set show and thought "what the heck, i'll give 24/96 a shot and see how it comes out".  i fully expected it to be a one show experiement at 24/96, afterwhich i would quickly retreat to my normal 24/48.

after listeining to the results i think i've been converted.  24/96 is noticeably better than 24/48, but it's somewhat subtle at the same time.  the playback results on an average sound system may not be immediately noticable (this i will acknowledge), but here is where i noticed significant benefit with 24/96. 

before i even started the recording i noticed a significant difference in the behavior of my levels.  i had headroom for days with the recorder set to 24/96 and had to use a much higher gain level compared to 24/48.  i was recording a jazz show (Lee Ritenour & Mike Stern), so the music had a pretty wide dynamic range.  when set at 24/96 the loudest peaks of the set did not cause my levels to spike like they would at 24/48, so setting levels was much easier. 

when i listented to the recording after normalizing the levels the first thing i noticed was the "spaciousness"... in the sense that the loud parts did not sound as if they were nearing the headroom limitations that can be sensed with a 24/48 recording.  the music sounded like it had plenty of room to "breathe" through the full range of dynamics. 

i'm not articulating my comments as well as i should, but i think y'all probably know what i'm trying to say.  there's still nothing wrong with 24/48, but i'll continue to experiement with 24/96 to see if my initial results are consistent. 

« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 05:48:11 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2012, 02:28:49 PM »
I'm still in the camp that says 16 bit 44.1kHz is enough to capture everything that is hearable.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2012, 02:48:17 PM »
My last recording was done at 24/96, just for shits and giggles. I dont know if it sounds BETTER than 24/48, but it does have a spaciousness that I dont often here in that same venue/same location. I just HATE dealing with the HUGEASS 24/96 files, and the LMA ALWAYS gives me problems when UL'ing 24/96 flacs.

With that being said, I think 24/48 is just fine and I'll be sticking with that as usual :)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2012, 05:02:27 PM »
before i even started the recording i noticed a significant difference in the behavior of my levels.  i had headroom for days with the recorder set to 24/96 and had to use a much higher gain level compared to 24/48.  i was recording a jazz show (Lee Ritenour & Mike Stern), so the music had a pretty wide dynamic range.  when set at 24/96 the loudest peaks of the set did not cause my levels to spike like they would at 24/48, so setting levels was much easier. 

when i listented to the recording after normalizing the levels the first thing i noticed was the "spaciousness"... in the sense that the loud parts did not sound as if they were nearing the headroom limitations that can be sensed with a 24/48 recording.  the music sounded like it had plenty of room to "breathe" through the full range of dynamics. 

I don't think that sampling rate has much of an influence on headroom...Maybe something was set differently?  Or just quieter music than what you're used to? 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #133 on: December 08, 2012, 11:25:37 AM »
I don't think that sampling rate has much of an influence on headroom...Maybe something was set differently?  Or just quieter music than what you're used to?

or confirmation bias.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2012, 01:30:31 PM »
I've only read the first few pages, but I wanted to add (unless it's already been mentioned) if you record at 24/96 to an SD card, you should use a higher performance/class 10 card.  Some recordings have stopped due to a 'write error' with a class 6 SD card.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #135 on: December 08, 2012, 01:36:25 PM »
I've only read the first few pages, but I wanted to add (unless it's already been mentioned) if you record at 24/96 to an SD card, you should use a higher performance/class 10 card.  Some recordings have stopped due to a 'write error' with a class 6 SD card.

Confirmed higher quality!   ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #136 on: December 09, 2012, 03:29:13 PM »
I've only read the first few pages, but I wanted to add (unless it's already been mentioned) if you record at 24/96 to an SD card, you should use a higher performance/class 10 card.  Some recordings have stopped due to a 'write error' with a class 6 SD card.

Confirmed higher quality!   ;)

what?  have fun splitting hairs.

Record in whatever sample rate you are going to use... as someone already mentioned converting is damaging to the audio. There is a difference with 96khz if you use a high quality playback system, still... subtle.  usually I use 24/48... 48khz for video editing and convert t 48khz mp3's.  I don't burn CD's anymore (hardly), but I convert to 44.1/16 for uploading to a torrent site or archive.org.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2012, 08:39:31 AM »
I'd love to see some ABX results for some of the claims being made in this thread. Or at least post both 24bit and 24>16>24bit files and let us try to tell the difference.

I can't hear the difference between 48 and 96.

I run 96 because my gear can, because hard drive space is cheep and most importantly, it makes me feel better about myself as a taper and as an audiophile.  :P

I run 24bit so I can run my levels lower so I don't have to ride the gain as much and so i can drink more beer at shows. I normalize in post. (This is because I *can* hear the difference between a 16bit recording where the levels hit only -12db and then normalized in post and a 24bit recording where the levels hit only -12db and then normalized in post)

At a rock & roll show there is no need for more than 100db of dynamic range. Perhaps for nature recordings or symphonies.

I maintain that your brains are playing tricks on those of you who claim to be able to tell the difference.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 02:36:40 AM by noahbickart »
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2012, 12:00:48 PM »
i think the point i was trying to make was not received in the manner intended.  my claim that a recording captured at 24/96 sounds more open and easier on the ears is not the same as saying that 24/96 is better quality. 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 12:09:18 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #139 on: December 10, 2012, 01:44:03 PM »
I can't hear the difference between 48 and 96.

I run 96 because my gear can, because hard drive space is cheep and most importantly, it makes me feel better about myself as a taper and as an audiophile.  :P

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #140 on: December 10, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »
i think the point i was trying to make was not received in the manner intended.  my claim that a recording captured at 24/96 sounds more open and easier on the ears is not the same as saying that 24/96 is better quality.

I have no problem with that kind of quality claim. Quality is a pretty broadly defined term. More open and easier on the ears certainly equates to better quality in my opinion.  :)

However your comments about needing different level settings and increased headroom are things which are more or less at odds with the technical aspects of varying the sample rate.  Those attributes are things one might expect to find with a change of bit-depth - say going from 16 to 24 bits. A change of sample rate alone should not technically affect issues of level or dynamics in any significant way when recording music.  That is not to say the differences you perceived are not real, it is rather a question of to what those differences you most certainly heard should be attributed.

Be careful in making sure you are really comparing apples to apples before drawing conclusions between fruit.  Without comparing files made on identical machines recording the same feed at different rates there are a multitude of extraneous variables that can easily overshadow a meaningful comparison.  The difficult part is minimalizing the influence of other variables except sample rate to a practical extent. If you are constrained to using one recorder for the test, at the very least change sample rate settings at some point during a break in the performance so that many of the other variables go unchanged (the band, style of music, the room, the levels, hopefully the number of persons in the audience, etc).  Even then, you aren't comparing the exact same recorded segment.  Yet running that test a few times before reaching a decision may lead to a more clear conclusion. Consider recording the first part at 96kHz and the second part at 48kHz one evening, then reverse that another, to help cancel out the natural first-half / second-half bias towards better playing, excitement and more dialed in sound later in the program - which is just one variable still left among many in that situation.

Regardless of the technicalities of sample rate conversion and filtering (of which I would not be surprised to find my admittedly limited understanding may be either incorrect or outdated by 20 years) what interests me in a practical sense is still this-

[self quote from earlier in the thread] What I wonder about is the original capture conversion of 48 vs 96 kHz using my particular equipment.. not because I think any ultrasonic information may be audible or that the high-quality resampling I can do on the computer may be audible, but because the recording equipment I'm using is modest and the ADCs in the recorders may perform better at 96 than 48 (or vice-versa) for a number of reasons.

I don't have to fully understand the technicalites of SRC implementations to test that, only understand the problem and how to minimilaize the pitfalls involved in running a reliable test.  I’ve not made all the effort to set up such a test, but my working conclusion is that I have yet to notice any sonic difference between recordings I’ve made at 48 and 96kHz which I can attribute to the difference in saple rate.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #141 on: December 10, 2012, 04:16:11 PM »
all i know is that with the exact same mics, recorder and preamp that i typically use for a 24/48 recording, when i went to 96kHz i had to kick the gain up on my preamp a noticeable amount to get levels in the same range as with the 48kHz setting.  since the only variable that changed was the kHz setting i assumed that's what caused the increased headroom.  i've recorded a few more shows since my initial trial with the 96kHz setting and the results have been consistently reproduced.   

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #142 on: December 10, 2012, 05:16:08 PM »
all i know is that with the exact same mics, recorder and preamp that i typically use for a 24/48 recording, when i went to 96kHz i had to kick the gain up on my preamp a noticeable amount to get levels in the same range as with the 48kHz setting.  since the only variable that changed was the kHz setting i assumed that's what caused the increased headroom.  i've recorded a few more shows since my initial trial with the 96kHz setting and the results have been consistently reproduced.

Well, one of the points I was trying to make was that the change in sample rate was not the only variable which changed between the files you are comparing, even if the same mics, recorder and preamp were used. 

At the end of your post above, you mention that you’ve run the test multiple times, and that helps to average out some of those other variables somewhat.  If you’ve run the test enough times to reach a point where it becomes clear that there is a consistent difference in some aspect or another despite the other variables, then you are getting somewhere.

But where that gets you is to the conclusion that your equipment behaves differently at the different settings.  That’s undoubtedly of practical value and a more important question with regards to making the best recordings you can with the equipment you have, but it may or may not apply to other equipment used the same way.  It answers a question about how your particular equipment behaves at different settings rather than which sample rate is better in itself. Concluding that the difference is fully attributable to the change in sample rate rather than the particulars of the implementation is a jump.   

[edit- Jon's post while I was typing suggests one way in which a difference in implementation could be the source of the differences you hear rather than the change of sample rate itself]

And that was the other point I was attempting to make in pointing out that what really interests me is how my gear performs.  I was trying to separate the more theoretical discussion were having about different recording sample rates, from the more practical question of which setting I choose to use given my gear, and my situation.  Both questions are interesting and worth discussing, and might have different answers. Apologies if I was less than clear.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 09:30:43 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #143 on: December 10, 2012, 07:03:37 PM »
Well, one of the points I was trying to make
Well, one of the points I was trying to make

Is there an echo in here since TS went offline briefly?  :P
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #144 on: December 10, 2012, 09:38:57 PM »
all very interesting points.  the specific equipment i've been using is Sennheiser MKH8050 > Aerco MP-2 > Sony M-10.  based on Jon and Gutbucket's feedback the "add'l headroom" may be a function of the way the Sony's ADC behaves at the 96kHz setting versus the 48kHz setting (not necessarily the result of the inherent character/behavior of the 96kHz setting).  i'm going to try the same experiment with my R-44 and see what happens.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 09:41:28 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #145 on: December 11, 2012, 09:36:08 AM »
Is there an echo in here since TS went offline briefly?  :P

Helloooooo..helloooo
yep. couldn't get back in to modify my accidental double-post yestereday.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #146 on: January 07, 2013, 02:29:40 PM »
all very interesting points.  the specific equipment i've been using is Sennheiser MKH8050 > Aerco MP-2 > Sony M-10.  based on Jon and Gutbucket's feedback the "add'l headroom" may be a function of the way the Sony's ADC behaves at the 96kHz setting versus the 48kHz setting (not necessarily the result of the inherent character/behavior of the 96kHz setting).  i'm going to try the same experiment with my R-44 and see what happens.

i've had a chance to use my R-44 at the 24/96 setting and the 48kHz versus the 96kHz setting makes absolutely no difference in how the levels behave.  the difference i was experiencing with my M-10 seems to be specific to the M-10. 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #147 on: January 07, 2013, 04:11:19 PM »
Holy crap! Seriously? I recorded my first few shows on my M10 at 96kHz and had a terrible time getting the levels any good. I thought I just sucked at hitting levels. I couldn't figure out how people were getting good results with M10 at gain level 3 when I was needing to be above 6!

With the huge files and everything I switched to 48kHz over the summer and also got more comfortable with my gear and low and behold I've had much better results getting levels up during shows and running the M10 at 3. I thought I was just getting better! Doh! This would make a lot more sense.

I was chalking it up to inexperience which I'm sure had a contributing factor, but this might have more to do with it. So maybe neither was I as bad as I thought when I started, nor have I improved as much as I thought....  :facepalm:

I'm going to do some testing of my own now. This might be an unfortunate deficiency in M10 design (still love the recorder) but it will help my world to make a little more sense if I can reproduce this.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 04:17:03 PM by Ultfris101 »
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #148 on: January 07, 2013, 10:57:40 PM »
I just do 24/48! Easier to deal with files in post and saves me $$ on blank DVDRs ;)
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2013, 06:42:01 AM »
I just do 24/48! Easier to deal with files in post and saves me $$ on blank DVDRs ;)
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Offline DSatz

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #150 on: January 13, 2013, 09:11:00 AM »
I'm not following this whole thread, but would just like to agree (strongly) with one logical point that's been raised about the way some people's opinions have been formed on this topic. If you take a digital audio recorder and you record one performance at one sample rate, and another performance at another sample rate, you may think that you're comparing "the sound" of the two sample rates. Many people have done this and have come away with strong opinions; to them, their opinions are based on first-hand experience, and seem valid.

But other people have recorded and listened to identical signals at two different sampling rates. Many in this second group of people also feel that there are audible differences (particularly after learning what to listen for, which doesn't stand out to most people)--but quite a few people don't hear any definite difference when the identical source is used for both sampling rates--particularly if someone helps them out so that they can listen without knowing which recording they're hearing at a given moment. Those people tend to have strong opinions less often, though their experience lends greater credibility to their conclusions (or lack thereof), since there are fewer uncontrolled variables in the comparison.

Now here's the thing: Even back in the early 1980s when digital audio was still new and there were no high-rate A/D converters--the highest was Tom Stockham's 50 kHz Soundstream system--it was widely acknowledged that some converters sounded better than others. And that's huge as far as this discussion is concerned. If different converters and recorders can sound different when running at the same sampling rate, then another recorder or converter could always come along and sound better (or worse) than anything else you've ever heard at that same rate, and reset your expectations.

Conclusion: NOBODY can ever be sure that they've heard what any particular sampling rate "sounds like." Sampling rates in themselves can't be shown conclusively to have a "sound"; only particular implementations of them can, on specific recorded material.

One classic case of this occurred back in the 1980s, and I think that a lot of pro audio people formed their opinions on its basis. The first-generation Sony studio DAT machine (PCM-2500 if I recall correctly) was the first widely available digital recorder with a front-panel switch to control the sampling rate. Those decks were widely judged to sound not so great at 44.1 kHz, and better at 48 kHz. So a lot of people decided, aha: 48 kHz sounds a lot better than 44.1 kHz.

But in those decks, whenever you switched sampling rates, you also switched the analog anti-aliasing and anti-imaging filters. So the quality of those filters was a variable as well, and the 44.1 kHz filters had particular problems. As some of you may know, Apogee got their start in big-time audio by supplying lower-distortion aftermarket filters for Sony professional DAT and DASH recorders. With Apogee filters in place, the 44.1 kHz performance in particular became cleaner, and most people no longer heard any big difference between 44.1 and 48 kHz sampling on those decks.

But here's the thing: The great majority of people who had formed an initial opinion never made the follow-up experiment with comparable-quality implementations at the different sampling rates. So they still held on to their initial opinions, because no experience of theirs ever contradicted them. Plus, by then certain people had staked part of their reputation on their ability to hear the difference between sampling rates (can you actually imagine--people having egos in the music business)?

And that is the situation we find ourselves in. In general, the strength of anyone's opinion about the "sound" of different sampling rates (or many other topics such as tubes vs. transistors, discrete vs. op-amp, etc.), and their judgment of how relevant their listening experience actually is to the question at hand, may be inversely proportional to the amount of truly relevant listening experience that the person has.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 04:57:38 PM by DSatz »
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #151 on: January 13, 2013, 03:55:19 PM »
In general, the strength of anyone's opinion about the "sound" of different sampling rates (or many other topics such as tubes vs. transistors, discrete vs. op-amp, etc.), and their judgment of how relevant their listening experience actually is to the question at hand, may be inversely proportional to the amount of truly relevant listening experience that the person has.

I strongly agree. Often I stop these nonsensical discussions by saying, "I cannot hear a difference - you must have better hearing than me." I enjoy the look they have at me then ...
Often I record with 96kHz for practical reasons in sound design or if the final format needs it. But I have never a bad feeling when recording with 44.1 kHz.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2013, 06:01:53 AM »
I hope it's ok to bump this topic for my question.

I have a PCM-M10 and will record in 24bit exclusively, there's no question about that, not going to do 16bit or less with it. I read through all the M10 threads (all 6?) these past few days and I also searched up on sampling rate topics. It seemed that a few years ago (let's say until 2008-2009?) a lot of people were recording their live shows 24/44.1 but then as of more recently the majority of users record at 24/48. Why the change of heart?

Is this simply because you want to listen to your shows on DVD-Video discs? My target format is going to be redbook cd audio for the most part, so if I stick with 24/44.1 I will not have to resample (I read some of e.g. DSatz's posts about that and the way I understood it, if I don't have to resample then that's one less potential step of quality loss - hope I'm not mistaken there), only dither. Also, my stereo supposely can playback FLAC at any sample rate up to 192kHz (Pioneer), though I haven't tested anything above 96kHz, yet. So personal playback won't be a problem, I could do dvd-a also and 24/44.1 is a valid format for that. Most of my live recording listening is done on the computer using headphones anyway so again no problem with 24/44.1 there, either.

99% of the shows I record are amplified through a PA, so I don't think there is much going on above 20kHz (if that high, probably only 16kHz in some of the venues I frequent), so 44.1 kHz should be fine for that.
Basically, is there anything absolutely wrong with sticking to 44.1 kHz as opposed to 48 kHz that I didn't consider here? File space is not really an issue, it would only result in slightly bigger files. But I'd rather avoid the extra resampling step if there is no reasonable benefit to recording in 48kHz.

Sorry if this is a little repetitive, English isn't my first language and I tried to make myself as clear as possible. Thanks for your time.

EDIT: I forgot another thing that slightly irritated me. I noticed that user "acidjack" (nyctaper.com) records most of their shows in 24/44.1 when using the Sony PCM-M10. But when they use a different recorder, e.g. Edirol R44, they pretty much always do 24/48. Any particular reason for that? (I could take this to PM but I felt it was an odd thing to contact someone I don't know at all in private).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:05:19 AM by nardo »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #153 on: January 30, 2013, 01:22:40 PM »
Anyone able to help me out here? If I should search for an answer I'd really appreciate a keyword to search for because I didn't find a reason against 44.1 (or pro-48 and anti-44.1) in the topics I found.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #154 on: January 30, 2013, 01:53:11 PM »
For your purposes, it sounds like 44.1 will be just fine. If you are mainly playing back on CD's, then you are doing the right thing.

Will you always be listening to CD's? Will the day come when you listen to music primarily on something else?
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #155 on: January 30, 2013, 02:01:55 PM »
I hope it's ok to bump this topic for my question.

I have a PCM-M10 and will record in 24bit exclusively, there's no question about that, not going to do 16bit or less with it. I read through all the M10 threads (all 6?) these past few days and I also searched up on sampling rate topics. It seemed that a few years ago (let's say until 2008-2009?) a lot of people were recording their live shows 24/44.1 but then as of more recently the majority of users record at 24/48. Why the change of heart?

Is this simply because you want to listen to your shows on DVD-Video discs? My target format is going to be redbook cd audio for the most part, so if I stick with 24/44.1 I will not have to resample (I read some of e.g. DSatz's posts about that and the way I understood it, if I don't have to resample then that's one less potential step of quality loss - hope I'm not mistaken there), only dither. Also, my stereo supposely can playback FLAC at any sample rate up to 192kHz (Pioneer), though I haven't tested anything above 96kHz, yet. So personal playback won't be a problem, I could do dvd-a also and 24/44.1 is a valid format for that. Most of my live recording listening is done on the computer using headphones anyway so again no problem with 24/44.1 there, either.

99% of the shows I record are amplified through a PA, so I don't think there is much going on above 20kHz (if that high, probably only 16kHz in some of the venues I frequent), so 44.1 kHz should be fine for that.
Basically, is there anything absolutely wrong with sticking to 44.1 kHz as opposed to 48 kHz that I didn't consider here? File space is not really an issue, it would only result in slightly bigger files. But I'd rather avoid the extra resampling step if there is no reasonable benefit to recording in 48kHz.

Sorry if this is a little repetitive, English isn't my first language and I tried to make myself as clear as possible. Thanks for your time.

EDIT: I forgot another thing that slightly irritated me. I noticed that user "acidjack" (nyctaper.com) records most of their shows in 24/44.1 when using the Sony PCM-M10. But when they use a different recorder, e.g. Edirol R44, they pretty much always do 24/48. Any particular reason for that? (I could take this to PM but I felt it was an odd thing to contact someone I don't know at all in private).

nardo:  i personally don't see anything wrong with recording at 24 bit/44.1 kHz.  the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom and adds some flexibility to the post-production process.  with the M10 specifically i have recently started recording at 24 bit/96kHz.  i noticed much better control of levels and much more headroom using the 24/96 setting.  with my Roland R-44 my levels behave exactly the same whether i use 24/48 or 24/96, so i use the 24/48 setting with the R-44.  hope this helps a little bit.

edit:  while i was typing my response Jon posted some info.  his explanation is much better than mine.   
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:05:11 PM by bass_ur_face »

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #156 on: January 30, 2013, 02:12:27 PM »
the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom

I almost posted a snarkey picture, but I'll refrain this time.

Headroom as it's commonly used in audio is a function of bit depth, not sampling frequency.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #157 on: January 30, 2013, 02:14:52 PM »
the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom

I almost posted a snarkey picture, but I'll refrain this time.

Headroom as it's commonly used in audio is a function of bit depth, not sampling frequency.

thank you for the correction.   ;D

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #158 on: January 30, 2013, 02:18:24 PM »
the general practice of recording at 24 bit/48kHz provides more headroom

I almost posted a snarkey picture, but I'll refrain this time.

Headroom as it's commonly used in audio is a function of bit depth, not sampling frequency.

thank you for the correction.   ;D

No worries. I've said incorrect things in my life time. It happens.

I think there is something in the M10's display function that triggers a difference but I wouldn't expect the underlying levels or noise floor to change for the same frequencies regardless of sampling frequency. A benchmark test of tones should resolve that.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #159 on: January 30, 2013, 03:36:00 PM »
88.2:  use if you have the resources (storage space, processing power), your final target is CD audio, *and* if you plan on doing a significant amount of dynamics processing (compression, limiting).  This is because dynamics processing needs to be oversampled, and running at a higher rate especially helps if your dynamics processors don't do the greatest job at oversampling.  IMPORTANT NOTE!  You must bandlimit to 20kHz before dynamics processing, or you will lose this benefit. Staying at 88.2 rather than 96 helps if your sample rate converter is less than perfect, as lower-quality SRCs do a better job at low-integer multiples (1/2).  Second note:  if you need to conserve storage space on your recorder, you can get the same benefit by recording at 44.1 and upsampling before dynamics processing.  Again, if you have really good dynamics processors, they will do that for you.

Jon, can you provide a bit more detail about reasoning behind the bolded part above?
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #160 on: January 30, 2013, 03:42:02 PM »
88.2:  use if you have the resources (storage space, processing power), your final target is CD audio, *and* if you plan on doing a significant amount of dynamics processing (compression, limiting).  This is because dynamics processing needs to be oversampled, and running at a higher rate especially helps if your dynamics processors don't do the greatest job at oversampling.  IMPORTANT NOTE!  You must bandlimit to 20kHz before dynamics processing, or you will lose this benefit. Staying at 88.2 rather than 96 helps if your sample rate converter is less than perfect, as lower-quality SRCs do a better job at low-integer multiples (1/2).  Second note:  if you need to conserve storage space on your recorder, you can get the same benefit by recording at 44.1 and upsampling before dynamics processing.  Again, if you have really good dynamics processors, they will do that for you.

Jon, can you provide a bit more detail about reasoning behind the bolded part above?

that caught my eye as well.  i'm also interested to get more info.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #161 on: January 30, 2013, 04:06:01 PM »
Thanks!
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #162 on: January 30, 2013, 05:18:04 PM »
Thanks for the great info! Much appreciated. It's rather late here so I hope I'll be able to fully understand everything tomorrow morning.

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #163 on: February 01, 2013, 07:10:40 AM »
No worries. I've said incorrect things in my life time. It happens.

I think there is something in the M10's display function that triggers a difference but I wouldn't expect the underlying levels or noise floor to change for the same frequencies regardless of sampling frequency. A benchmark test of tones should resolve that.

I did this and don't see a difference between 24/48 and 24/96.  I just generated some noise on the computer and recorded it at both sampling rates.  Both hit the same levels on the M10.  Looking further, both recordings had the same maximum level and average RMS...

IMPORTANT NOTE!  You must bandlimit to 20kHz before dynamics processing, or you will lose this benefit.

One more question about this:  what's the best way to limit the bandwidth for this purpose?  Low pass filter?  Upsampling from a lower sampling frequency? 

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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2013, 05:26:19 AM »
I record @ 24/96 on my m10.

I can't hear the difference between recording the PA of a rock concert at 48 kHz or at 96 kHz.

But I feel better about myself and about my gear that I can do fancy stuff.

Cost in storage space (and therefore recording time) and processing time is minimal for me, so that's what I do.

I listen to the 24/96 files at home and convert to v0 mp3 (@48kHz) on my iphone for non critical portable and car listening.
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Re: 24-Bit / 48kHz or 96kHz
« Reply #165 on: February 15, 2013, 07:15:19 AM »
One more question about this:  what's the best way to limit the bandwidth for this purpose?  Low pass filter?  Upsampling from a lower sampling frequency?

Either method works, although upsampling with a quality ADC/SRC is ideal.  If you go the standard filter route, you want a steeper than ordinary filter for optimal results.  For example, you could chain three second-order filters at slightly staggered corner frequencies.

SRCs are very highly optimized filters, so that's the simplest way.  I know it does sound a bit backwards to record at 88.2 just to downsample and then upsample for processing.  So you would only do that to potentially take advantage of a better filter than your converters possess.  Otherwise, you'd just record at 44.1 and upsample to process, which is what I tend to do.

Thanks, Jon.  That's kind of what I assumed based on some of your previous posts. 

On a related topic, any recommendations on an SRC?  Preferably not too expensive.  I have been using the r8brain standalone, which seems pretty good, but if there is something better that doesn't cost a fortune, I'm all ears...

 

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