Topic: 4 channels?

[crossthreaded]

This sounds f*cking awesome!  Love those German mics!

I have AKG 481's (and 391's) but still want me a pair of KM184's. 

thanks dude! I was quite happy with it for the crappy PA I was pulling off of.

if my buddy didn't have some that I could borrow anytime I want I would have already pulled the trigger on the ones in the yard sale.  hell I still might pick them up if they are there much longer

[Gutbucket]

Doug Oade's thoughts, quoted in this thread.  I'm re-posting his quote here because of his statements about these mic configs.  The suggestions for which channels to use is in reference to his Concert Mod on the original Edirol R-4 and can be disregarded for the sake of this discussion. 

[snip] A 4 microphone recording works best with the primary coincident directional mic pair( i.e. 90° X-Y hypercardioids) on channels 3 and 4 with a secondary or flanking pair of omnidirectional mics on channels 1 and 2. 4 directional mic mixes are not recommended. 3 microphone mixes should use channels 3 and 4 as a primary pair and channel 1 or 2 as the center mic. The use of an omni center channel, aligned with the coincident primary pair typically produces the best results for 3 mic mixes.

[Big Perm]

I run 4ch mic mixes all the time. Either super cards or cards + wide cards (schoeps mk41/mk5 + mk22) or sometimes I'll run the mk5's omni if outside. I compare sources first then start mixing. More times than not I really like the combination. I very rarely mix it 50/50. There is typically a dominate stereo pair that I like and if the mix adds something I like to the sound I keep it. This technique may not be recommended, but I like it and it sounds really nice to my ears.

[capnhook]

I run 4ch mic mixes all the time. Either super cards or cards + wide cards (schoeps mk41/mk5 + mk22) or sometimes I'll run the mk5's omni if outside. I compare sources first then start mixing. More times than not I really like the combination. I very rarely mix it 50/50. There is typically a dominate stereo pair that I like and if the mix adds something I like to the sound I keep it. This technique may not be recommended, but I like it and it sounds really nice to my ears.

^this, definitely a dominant stereo pair exists in each particular recording event.  My pairs are XY cards and spread omnis, at different spread distances for different results.. starting to look into the SRA (stereo recording angle), but I forgot where that cool link was...

[Gutbucket]

starting to look into the SRA (stereo recording angle), but I forgot where that cool link was...

Simple- http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Fragen08.htm
Complex- http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=40

[capnhook]

starting to look into the SRA (stereo recording angle), but I forgot where that cool link was...

Simple- http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Fragen08.htm
Complex- http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=40

Ahhhh....niiiice.  Thanks Lee.

[Gutbucket]

At one point, Core Sound was working on a 4 channel preamp which multiplexed the four signals into a two channel SPDIF stream for recording on a stereo recorder with SPDIF input, but dropped development of it.  I assume it would require software decoding afterwards go from 2 to 4 channels again before you could do anything with the audio.  Web page is still up- http://www.core-sound.com/4Mic/1.php  Sort of like ADAT S/MUX in reverse it seems to me.

But I'd guess that  technique is different than using frequency modulation (or maybe not, I'm in over my head).  The FM idea reminds me of one flavor of quadrophonic LP encoding which used  FM modulation of ultrasonic frequencys to store the information for the extra two channels, I forget which that was.  At least with digital it would work reliably.

With either technique, it would be pretty cool to be able to record eight 24/48 tracks to a stereo 24/192 recorder with digital input!

[Gutbucket]

Interesting.  Yeah, I was mentally mixing up Frequency Modulation radio transmission with the side-band audio carrier stereo technique.  Thanks for the clarification all around.  Interesting idea, could be useful for less critical audio on the extra channels.  Thinking rear surround channels, or a mostly mono soundboard recording just recorded to reinforce vocals and details on a primary AUD.

[yates7592]

Lots of good stuff in this (old) thread, thanks to everyone who input.

I just thought I would chime in with my (very limited) 4-channel experience. My operations are purely stealth, so this is very different to all the advice given previously which seems to relate to open taping. I ran a 4-channel stealth set up last week, B3's (omnis) on shoulders in rough A-B, so approx 400mm separation, and CK930's (cards) in hat-mount above temples, pointing inwards slightly, both mic pairs going into an R-26. So visually, face-on, the mics were in a roughly triangular arrangement. I recorded at the front of the stage, centre. Purists might argue this is not a good place to tape, but I had a close-up and direct line of sight to all instruments on-stage (small stage at that). 

I have to say that the results are better than I could ever have hoped.  The mix of the omni's and cards (50:50) has brought out the best of both sets of mics. For this set-up at least, the matrix is noticeably better than either single source. The B3's picked up the kick drum well, but the snare drum hits were better represented on the CK930's. I would normally EQ my B3 recordings to brighten things up a tad, but when mixed with the CK930's with the 10k bump I found this was not needed as the two mics seem to compliment each other very well. Added bonus is that stereo imaging is great.  No phasing issues of any kind, and mixing 2 x time and machine-synched files was a total breeze. 

Wherever possible, this is going to be my stealth set up of choice from now on.  But does anybody else have any good stealth 4-channel suggestions they can make, possibly some clever way of adapting my set up to provide even better results?

[sacchini]

Interesting post, Yates7592.
In a few days I'm going to use my R26 but I've only cards external mics so I'm just going to record 4 channels for mics comparison purpose and not for doing a Matrix (or should I give it a try anyway?).
Is it difficult to make a well sounding matrix?
Do you trust tools and techniques or just your ears?

[page]

Is it difficult to make a well sounding matrix?
Do you trust tools and techniques or just your ears?

As with other aspects of taping (or any skill/knowledge task); just about anyone can make one, many people can make a decent or good one, but only a very select few can make a great one. It doesn't hurt to try, you're out time and effort, but it requires a lot of practice (both in post production and the math/placement required during setup) to get to the point of making a great one.

[sacchini]

As with other aspects of taping (or any skill/knowledge task); just about anyone can make one, many people can make a decent or good one, but only a very select few can make a great one. It doesn't hurt to try, you're out time and effort, but it requires a lot of practice (both in post production and the math/placement required during setup) to get to the point of making a great one.

It makes sense...