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Author Topic: Wondering What Happened  (Read 3060 times)

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Offline kidrocklive

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Wondering What Happened
« on: January 13, 2008, 02:41:31 PM »
So I went to an acoustic show last night to try out my RH1. I was in the front, center of the stage (because I was wanting to do video with my digital camera). For the first 20 mins of the show I had my recorder set to Line In with the mic sensitivity on high and Mic Level at 30. While looking at the levels I felt it wasn't going high enough so I then switched to Mic In, left the sensitivty level on high and dropped the level to 7 or 8 I think. Doing this the levels seemed fine to me going slightly above the 12dB mark so I kept it at that for the rest of the show. When I got home however the Line In, even though low if I normalize it close to 0dB it sounds a lot better than the Mic In I did. The Mic In sounds like the mics were overloading or something as it wasn't topping out on the recorder yet it still sounds like it was on the recording. I put up a sample of each without any editing at all so I can hopefully find an answer to what I did wrong. Should I have turned the Mic Setting to Low when I went to Mic In? Much thanks for any help.

- Scott

Mic In Sample: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ykp7y3

Line In Sample:  http://www.sendspace.com/file/h3r9ao

Offline boojum

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2008, 07:22:08 PM »
Yes.

From line-in to mic in is un-amplified to amplified.  You may have been over-driving the amp stages even though it did not show.  I have an RH1 and have had that happen.  You can always make it louder.  The opposite is not true.  Better luck next time.
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline kidrocklive

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2008, 10:33:18 PM »
oh ok thanks, be cool if there was a way to tell if it was overloading through the mics or not. I thought it was kinda weird that the levels weren't ever going over a certain point haha. Lesson learned though that's for sure.

Offline Nixoo

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2008, 01:32:18 PM »
That line-in is very nice! Like Boojum said, the mic-in indeed sounds like a too hot signal. Mic sensitivity High is not advised on amplified music. On unamplified acoustic it might be usefull. I'd say mic in, low sens. Or use a preamp and line-in.
Btw, what mics did you use? Did you get those Church mics yet? Or are these the CSBs?
Recorders: Edirol R-09, Zoom H2
Mics: Soundman OKMII Pop, AT853 (4.7k mod), DPA4061, CA11 Cards, CA11 Omi, CA14 Cards
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Offline kidrocklive

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2008, 01:54:05 PM »
those are the CSB mics, I haven't gotten the church ones yet.  Hearing how the line in came out, I am kicking myself in the ass for not leaving it like it was lol.

Offline Nixoo

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 04:38:21 PM »
Too bad indeed. But if one bad recording is all it took to pull a good recording next time, you're way ahead of most of us :) :)
Recorders: Edirol R-09, Zoom H2
Mics: Soundman OKMII Pop, AT853 (4.7k mod), DPA4061, CA11 Cards, CA11 Omi, CA14 Cards
CA-Ugly 2 preamp, SP BB, CA BB
Photo/Video: Panasonic TZ40, Panasonic LX100, Canon 550D

Roving Sign

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 06:34:34 PM »
Should I have turned the Mic Setting to Low when I went to Mic In? Much thanks for any help.


Yes - Low..

And - not sure that setting even does anything when using Line-In...

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 06:52:51 PM »
The mic in recording "brickwalled". It has been reported by some posters here that if it is necessary to set the level below 12/30 (some have said 11/30) in order to keep the levels from going over 0 DB, the mic preamp will brickwall and distort anyway. Since your levels were set to 8/30 this must have been what happened to you. You can tell a brickwalled recording when you load it into a wave editor because the wave form is flat at the top even though it doesn't reach 0 DB and that is what yours looks like.

It is almost never correct to set the mic sensitivity to high except when recording very quiet stuff like bird calls etc. If you had recorded mic in on low sensitivity, I'm sure you would have used a level well above 12/30 and would have gotten a fine recording.

Your line in recording sounds fine. Just boost the levels in pre. Note that when you record line in, the mic sensitivity setting is irrelevant because you are not recording mic in and the setting has no effect. I've pulled many of my best recordings that originally looked your line in recording (peaking at -6 to -8). Sounds great when I boost in processing. I'm sure most people here will disagree with me, but I generally aim for levels peaking at -6 or below (even -12 has worked for me) because once a peak goes over 0 DB there's basically nothing you can do. It probably helps that I use Adobe Audition and convert to 32 bit before I boost (then back to 16 bit when I'm ready to burn a CD) but frankly, I really couldn't hear a difference when I edited in 16 bit.

I've actually never recorded mic in with my MZ-RH1 even though the low sensitivity setting is supposed to be great for acoustic. I brickwalled so many recordings with my Sony MZ-R55 minidisc and my Sony TCD-D100 DAT (before it was Oade modified) that I've stayed leery of going mic in with a Sony. That said, the MZ-RH1 mic in is supposed to be excellent when used correctly (generally low sensitivity and level set at 12/30 or above keeping the meters below 0 DB).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 07:15:49 PM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline DSatz

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2008, 09:40:00 AM »
kidrocklive, you can generally look at any recorder or signal processor as a set of blocks or "stages" of circuitry. Each stage must be able to handle the signals that are passing into and out of it without overloading. According to your description it seems as if the very first stage (the "input stage") of your recorder overloaded when you switched it to "mic in" and set the sensitivity to "high."

When you switch any recorder to its microphone inputs, you're setting its input stage to be more sensitive than it would be if you set the switch to "line." The first stage is then performing a higher degree of amplification on the signals you send in--or it's trying to, anyway. Every amplifier stage has its limits, and if you try to make a circuit stage amplify a signal more than it can, it will overload (a/k/a "clipping" or "brickwalling"). The active device in the circuit stage will be trying to pump out more current than it can--it's like what happens if you tell a human being to run at 20 miles per hour (when the maximum is more like 15), and then you tell the person that they have to run at 30 miles per hour--this will not make them move any faster, but the difference between what they're actually managing to accomplish and what is being demanded of them will be greater.

The thing is, in most recorders you have the first stage, and its gain (degree of amplification) is controlled by a mike/line switch (which may have high or low sensitivity settings as a variation, or may not)--and only then does the signal pass through the record level knob. So if you set the input stage sensitivity too high for the signal levels that are coming in, clipping (overload distortion) will occur in the first stage, and THEN that clipped, distorted, amplified signal will be set to whatever level you choose via the knob. Similarly the meters will only show you the levels of that clipped, distorted signal--because they, too, are located at a "later" point in the circuit, after the signal has already passed through the input stage for better or for worse.

If you intend to make live recordings, you need to know a few things in advance in order to avoid problems like this. You need to know the maximum sound pressure level that your microphones can handle without overloading themselves. You also need to know what signal level (voltage) the microphones produce at that sound pressure level. And you need to know the maximum voltage that your recorder's inputs can take without clipping, for each of the possible input settings that are available (e.g. line, mike, "low sensitivity," "pad" or whatever options there are). Keep in mind that the record level controls do not (or only very rarely) affect this overload limit, and that the meter or LED readings do not (or only very rarely) reflect what is going on in the input stage of any preamp, mixer or recorder.

With consumer or semi-pro portable recording equipment, it's extremely common that the mike inputs of a preamp or recorder or sound card can be overloaded by the signals coming out of a condenser microphone at high sound pressure levels. This is the manufacturers' fault up to a point; past that point, it's our fault for buying such equipment, but there sure is a lot of it out there. Anyway, once you have bought the equipment, the situation can only be remedied by choosing a lower-sensitivity setting for the input circuit (via the mike/line switch and whatever alternatives it may offer) or by using in-line resistive pads at the inputs of the recorder to reduce the signal levels coming in.

Or you can pay attention to these issues when shopping for a preamp, mixer, recorder, interface, etc. and make sure that it's designed so that at the signal levels your microphones can produce, the inputs of your recording equipment cannot possibly be overloaded before their outputs are. That's a topic for another message if you're interested, but what it amounts to is that, for example, with the preamp I use most often for live recording, if I set it so that the signal peaks just reach (say) 2 dB below full scale, the input stage of the preamp will be able to handle any signals that my microphones (which I know have a maximum output voltage of about 900 mV) can possibly put out. So all I have to do is set the recording levels, and I will never have a problem of input overload with those microphones and that preamp.

With a little specific attention when selecting equipment, the problem can be avoided altogether. Unfortunately when people combine their equipment without paying attention to this issue (or when the manufacturers refuse to talk straight about the limits of their products), the problem can occur during live recordings and the meters or overload LEDs will never show it--it will only be evident after the concert, when it's too late to do much about it.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 02:26:35 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2008, 12:53:28 PM »
Wow! I sure learned a lot of things I had no clue about from DSatz's post. I'm now motivated to try to learn more about my mics' specs and my recorders' specs to see how well they should work together when recording mic in. I'm going to cut and paste some of his comments for future reference. Thanks for the education!

In practice, however, I have safely avoided distortion 100% of the time (as long as the concert does not go over my mics' rated maximum sound pressure level at my location) by going line in through a battery box to the MZ-RH1 and keeping the meters from going over 0 DB. It's the safe way to go for someone like me that doesn't understand a lot of the technical stuff.

If you get a mic with a high maximum sound pressure level rating (like the Church Audio cards or 4.7k modded AT853's), you should be able to record virtually any concert without distortion with this method.

The same principle should work mic in (at either high or low sensitivity) as long as you don't need to set the level below 12/30 in order to keep the meters from going over. Reports are that below 12/30 is where brick wall distortion begins to occur with the MZ-RH1's mic inputs. I've always used line in, however, since I've had such good luck with it.  For acoustic stuff, mic in/low sensitivity should be fine though. I believe that Mic in/high sensitivity is recommended only for very quiet things like nature sounds.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline DSatz

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2008, 09:38:55 AM »
fmaderjr, from what you say, I get the impression that your recorder's mike inputs have decent "headroom" (ability to handle signals of higher voltage than some other recorders' inputs can handle). That's consistent with what I've always heard about the MZ-RH1, but it depends on the sensitivity and maximum SPL limit of your microphones as well. Some microphones have absurdly high output levels for relatively normal sound pressure levels, and those microphones can often overdrive the inputs of recorders and preamps.

The key point was where you said, in effect, that even with the loudest sound your microphones can handle, all you have to do is watch the meters on your recorder and set the record level knob so that the meters don't reach 0 dB (full scale). That is indeed the situation that we all want. But it's important for everyone to realize that many combinations of { microphones + mike inputs on recorders } don't give you that security. Overload distortion (sometimes quite severe) can occur well below 0 dB on the meters, because the input circuit of the recorder is being overloaded by the voltage coming from the microphones.

As you pointed out, there's often a certain setting for the record level knob, where if you can turn the knob to a higher setting and still not hit 0 dB you're OK, while if you have to set the knob lower than the setting, you're in trouble. That usually corresponds to a certain signal voltage that represents the headroom limit of the input circuit.

--best regards

P.S.: The way microphone specifications use the term "sensitivity" is unfortunate, because most people already think they know what it means: the ability to pick up very soft sounds. (Actually that would be a different specification: the microphone's equivalent noise level. If the equivalent noise level of a microphone is very low, it can pick up soft sounds without burying them in its own inherent noise.)

What "sensitivity" really means in microphone specifications is more like what most people probably think of as efficiency. It's the amount of signal that the microphone puts out for a given level of sonic input. The standard is, how many millivolts of signal (into a 1 kOhm load) does the microphone put out for 1 Pa of "sound pressure" (which is about 94 dB SPL) at 1 kHz.

This varies a huge amount among different microphones--a 50:1 ratio or even more. So circuit designers have to make some choices, and people who use super-high-output microphones (and/or who record very loud sounds) just have to be aware that they're living on, or sometimes beyond, the fringes of what those circuit designers may have allowed for.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 09:45:46 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Wondering What Happened
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2008, 04:46:49 PM »
Thanks DSatz-you're teaching me a lot. The MZ-RH1's line in does have good headroom. No problem in practice recording a very loud concert line in with a battery box when using a mic with a high sound pressure rating such as the 4.7k modded AT-853's, Church Audio Cards, HLSC-1's or DPA 4061's (all of which are rated, I think at 135 db or higher).

I'll try to study and understand what you said, though, because I also have a Fostex FR2-LE for non stealth situations that I go mic in with. I've only had a chance to use it a few times so far and it worked great, but I might have been lucky. I recorded in 24 bit and kept the meters peaking somewhere between -20 db and -10 db to be sure I wouldn't get distortion. Sounded great when boosted in post. Both times I used it with a Rode NT4 but I think a lot of the time in the future I may just use the DPAs (with an adapter to power them with the Fostex's phantom power). Tne NT4 is fine, but if I decide to really get into using full sized mics in the future, I think I'll sell it at a loss and apply the $ to a set of the new Busman mics.

+T for the advice! Should have given you one before too, but I always forget about tickets.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 05:04:27 PM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

 

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