Topic: Mics for Backcountry - Jungle, Safari etc..

[sanaka]

Speedo -

Note that the following is kind of 'armchair pontificating' for me as far as nature recording, but: AFAIK, the important things for what works for nature sounds are quiet, sensitive mics and quiet, sensistive mic preamps. IOW, capturing low level sounds with high gain and low noise. These happen to be the most demanding things to ask of a both mics and mic preamps. The Sennheisers into a Sound Devices fit this bill perfectly as the all the MKH mics are extremely low noise while having very high sensiitivity (~25mV output!), and the inputs of the SD machines similarly have very low noise but high (72dB) gain. The RF operation of the MKH mics makes them highly resistant to humidity to boot. Probably why the MKHxx series is widely renowned for field recording. The MKHxxxx series is too new to have much track record, but are essentially a smaller format of the same RF mics, so probably are excellent as well. The Rode mentioned by OtheroneK has insanely good output and noise specs too, if you want a hypercardiod pattern.

The Shure VP88 is I think an excellent, bombproof sort of mic, but has extremely low sensitivity, only .5mV, and not excellent self noise specs either. To capture quiet sounds, your preamps would be cranked way up, where even the best preamps start showing their weaknessses (noise). Having to get an outboard preamp to compensate for this (or for low or noisy input gain) to me seems self-defeating in a backpacking type rig. However, the FR2-LE's preamps are well thought of for the price range, and with nice hot mics like the Sennheisers you'd probably do fine. However, like the MKH mics, The Sound Devices are the renowned machines for field work. Highly reliable and capable with excellent sound.

A Sound Devices machine and some MKH mics is my personal dream rig. You could record anything with that setup. If I had the opportunity, it is what I would do hands down.

Peace,
Sanaka

[speedo]

OK, been doing some more research. How exactly do I mount an m-s setup with the MKH 30/40 setup?

I see a rycote kit at B&H for "stereo" suspension. Is that really necessary? Is it normal to spend $750 for a pistol grip and windjammer? Should I prepare to dish out that on top of the mic setup?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

OK, been doing some more research. How exactly do I mount an m-s setup with the MKH 30/40 setup?

I see a rycote kit at B&H for "stereo" suspension. Is that really necessary? Is it normal to spend $750 for a pistol grip and windjammer? Should I prepare to dish out that on top of the mic setup?

How are your seamstress skills?

[speedo]

OK, been doing some more research. How exactly do I mount an m-s setup with the MKH 30/40 setup?

I see a rycote kit at B&H for "stereo" suspension. Is that really necessary? Is it normal to spend $750 for a pistol grip and windjammer? Should I prepare to dish out that on top of the mic setup?

How are your seamstress skills?

poor. but i do have some rubberbands here in a glass jar

[ghellquist]

OK, been doing some more research. How exactly do I mount an m-s setup with the MKH 30/40 setup?

I see a rycote kit at B&H for "stereo" suspension. Is that really necessary? Is it normal to spend $750 for a pistol grip and windjammer? Should I prepare to dish out that on top of the mic setup?

I find the Rycote pages difficult to navigate. Probably because there simply are too many options and the stereo version is not very common. This page has better pictures I believe:
http://www.thefind.com/instruments/browse-rycote-stereo#

What you are looking at for a MKH30/40 is the Rycote Stereo Windshield. This is a large beast, sort of difficult to see in the pictures though. It has to be large as you need place for the two mics and air around them. Still standing air around the mic is what makes for reducing wind noise.

The mics are the mounted in a double clip, looking somewhat like and X. One mic above each other. The mic clips look like these:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/497696-REG/Rycote_048463_48463_25SQ_25SQ_25SQ_25SQ.html

Add the handle and preferrable a stereo conn box, and well, 750 or more. It will last your lifetime though.

I will see if I can crank out the camera and take a picture of mine, not the next few days though, too much else to cater for.

// Gunnar

[notlance]

I record professional commercial sound libraries - mainly instruments up until now, but this will be my first incursion into nature recording. I am definitely after a professional system. Our company's quality standards are very high. As we all know, the gear won't always get you the best sound, so I'm thinking that I could get a system better budgeted that will still yield pro results.

After adding the costs together and seeing the physical bulk I'm thinking of slimming down the system to be more cost and travel effective. I've been doing a ton of research over the past few days and rather than getting the sound devices and mkh setup I'm thinking of going for the fostex fr2le and a Sure Vp88. This will be about $2k cheaper and a few microphones smaller and lighter - afterall, I do have to carry food and water too! I suppose I could throw a pair of omnis in the mix.

Does this seem like a legit system for professional work? I guess my question now is, should I consider getting a decent preamp for the fostex? Is it worth the extra weight, cost, bulk?

Perhaps you have already reconsidered your idea of using a fr2le/Vp88 combo for field use, if not, please do.  I am no expert on nature recording, but I do own both the fr2le and a SD 702.  IMHO, I would not even consider taking the fr2le into the bush, especially if you are going to record MS.  The SD recorders are better suited for nature recording.  They are much more rugged, have quieter preamps (no need for and external pre) AND headphone amps (the fr2le headphone amp is rather noisy) , have redundant power and media, have a built in battery charger, and have built in MS decoding and MS headphone monitoring.  In your first post you said "Our company's quality standards are very high."  If that is really the case, the SD box is the only way to go.  I'd buy a 722 to get the internal hard drive.

I also own Sennheiser MKH mics, and have used the Shure VP88 mic.  The vp88 is OK, but the Sennheisers are in a different league.  The MKH mics have about 12 dB more output and have about 12 dB less self noise.  The Sennheisers also are less susceptible to humidity. For size and weight considerations, the MKH8000 series would be ideal, but that series does not offer a figure 8 cap.  If you want to do MS, a MKH30 and MKH40 (or MKH50) combo is as good as you can get.

Before you go into the field, build a power cord for the 722 that has a 4-pin Hirose on one end and car battery clips on the other.  With that you can run and recharge your 722 from any vehicle with a 12V electrical system.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Before you go into the field, build a power cord for the 722 that has a 4-pin Hirose on one end and car battery clips on the other.  With that you can run and recharge your 722 from any vehicle with a 12V electrical system.

<imagines jumper cables attached to 722>

[aaronji]

To deedee's earlier point about cleaning the DPAs in water...  Just because they can be cleaned that way doesn't in itself say how they work in humidity.. Though it is very encouraging from a field fix standpoint.

Well, I don't know anything about nature recording, but a pair of 4060s might make a pretty good back-up pair of mics.  They were designed to be moisture/humidity resistant; the DPA site says that, "The utmost attention has been paid to the microphone's resistance to humidity. A double vent protection system together with water resistant materials inside the microphone make it more than difficult for moisture to cause the Miniature Microphone to fail."  I have a friend that uses these for nature recordings, and he said that he uses them in the rain with no fear.  They are so small that they would take up little room in a pack (although you'd need some XLR adapters too) and are quite sensitive (20 mV/Pa).  True, as others have noted, they could be quieter, but that may not be an issue in the jungle or rain forest, especially at night.  My one time in the jungle, I was really surprised by the cacophony after dark.  Couldn't sleep for a few nights, until I was so exhausted I just dropped!

Not the cheapest back-up, but maybe worth considering if the budget allows.  It would suck to have a mic problem in the middle of nowhere...

Before you go into the field, build a power cord for the 722 that has a 4-pin Hirose on one end and car battery clips on the other.  With that you can run and recharge your 722 from any vehicle with a 12V electrical system.

<imagines jumper cables attached to 722>

I had the same image in my mind...Great suggestion, though...

[speedo]

Perhaps you have already reconsidered your idea of using a fr2le/Vp88 combo for field use, if not, please do.  I am no expert on nature recording, but I do own both the fr2le and a SD 702.  IMHO, I would not even consider taking the fr2le into the bush, especially if you are going to record MS.  The SD recorders are better suited for nature recording.  They are much more rugged, have quieter preamps (no need for and external pre) AND headphone amps (the fr2le headphone amp is rather noisy) , have redundant power and media, have a built in battery charger, and have built in MS decoding and MS headphone monitoring.  In your first post you said "Our company's quality standards are very high."  If that is really the case, the SD box is the only way to go.  I'd buy a 722 to get the internal hard drive.

I also own Sennheiser MKH mics, and have used the Shure VP88 mic.  The vp88 is OK, but the Sennheisers are in a different league.  The MKH mics have about 12 dB more output and have about 12 dB less self noise.  The Sennheisers also are less susceptible to humidity. For size and weight considerations, the MKH8000 series would be ideal, but that series does not offer a figure 8 cap.  If you want to do MS, a MKH30 and MKH40 (or MKH50) combo is as good as you can get.

Before you go into the field, build a power cord for the 722 that has a 4-pin Hirose on one end and car battery clips on the other.  With that you can run and recharge your 722 from any vehicle with a 12V electrical system.

OK, I've decided to go with the 722 or 702 and the MKHs. I just can't justify being "cheap" when our company has a budget for different levels of gear to make our products.

Now I'm trying to decide between the 722 and 702. In my experience and research it seems that Cards are the way to go - less heavy, less prone to failure. Not to be "cheap" again but do you really think the HD feature is worth it? I mean, with a 4GB card I can get almost an hour of stereo 24/96.

[notlance]

I'd buy the 722 so I could record to BOTH the HDD and CF simultaneously.  Redundancy is a good thing in the bush.  You can record simultaneously to the internal CF and an external HDD via FireWire with the 702, but the external HDD and cable is not what you want when you are backpacking.

[sanaka]

  Heh heh... if you're really, um, comfortable with your company's budget, there's the 788T-SSD:



256GB of flash drive storage.  Only ~$6500 

But seriously, the 702 vs 722 is up to how much storage you think you need. If you're really going to wander around recording at 24/96 (because, yes, any good jungle ought to have bats), the hard drive might be very important. If you're dumping off to a laptop often enough, I'd feel safe and more convenient with a bunch of flash cards.

Peace,
Sanaka

[midside]

Regarding the VP88, I used this mic for years in the field and was very happy with the sound for the most part.  If the gain did not have to be turned up too much, then the sound quality was great.  Too much gain in quiet environments led to too much self noise as others have stated.  This was only an issue in very quiet situations, nature recordings might frequently fall in that category.  But, I would not hesitate at all to use the VP88 for nature recordings, it still has many benefits...it sounds great, it is very rugged, built in MS, and runs forever off of a tiny battery.  The number 1 reason I sold this mic and went on to a different setup was because of the size of the blimp I had to carry around with this thing.  Here are a few photos: in blimp, hand held, and in shock mount (no blimp).

[notlance]

Hey speedo, a 722 is in the YS right now.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I am 'in the field' and recording.......

[spcyrfc]

I am 'in the field' and recording.......

what exactly?  good work nonetheless. 

got fete du musique manana in paris, should be good or at least interesting.