Topic: Split Omnis

[blu666z]

Going to be buying some omni caps for my ATs soon.  I have NO experience with omni and want some ideas/pointers.  How much of a spread is needed?  Want to try and run split omnis @ the Gorge for the Dead/ABB.  2' enough?  The further the better?

-Kevin

[Brian]

theoretically not much more than a 6' split is necessary.  after that a noticeable cone filter becomes present in the recording. all theoretical though, but some people like the sound it produces. i've heard many a good recordings with omnis spaced more than 6 feet.

2' would be fine.  the wider you space the bigger the soundstage.  

paging m0k3 for J-Disc!

Brian

[Tim]

I would start with 3' in less than optimum circumstances. I wouldn't go much wider than 10' or so... maybe 6-8' outdoors at a place like the Gorge.

It's not "the wider the better", you can definitely go too wide. Look at the PA and see how wide it goes and the further back from the PA the wider you can go.

just rules of thumb...

[Brian]

tim always posts at the same time i do

the other thing that you have to take into consideration is all the phase issues with split omnis. it would be hard to draw it out using ascii but there are several phase issues that can occur resulting in that cone filter i mentioned above.

Brian

[blu666z]

How are the tapers at Dead shows?  Cool enough to let me throw a small mic on their stand?  Orientation on omnis make no difference right?

-Kevin

[Tim]

Omni's are directional at high frequencies so technically you should point the mics at the PA...

Honestly, the few times I've ever had problems with other tapers at shows are at Dead related events. As a group, and I know I shouldn't generalize, they can be real assholes. That said I doubt you'll have an issue clamping such small mics.

[Brian]

i felt the same vibe at the dead show in st. louis last year. i made a post about in another thread a couple of weeks ago.

one person wanted to run split omnis and the only person in hte section who would let them clamp was joe shambro.  i would have but i got there late and was shoved off to the corner (which happened to be DFC those fockers.....my tape smokes ). anyway after it got dark they kept flashing their damn flashlights around and pointing them into the faces of tapers who were trying to make it through the section to either get to their gear or leave to get a drink or take a piss.   wanted to smack those douches so bad!

[plucks]

watch out at the gorge w/omnis though.
for phish, the ts is off center.  if you are able to go to each side of foh or center FOB, you should be fine, but otherwise omni's may be tricky due to the heavy weight of the one PA stack on one side.  
If the sound source isnt centered very well with omnis, it could be tricky.  3' spread should work well.  

[Chuck]

I've split omnis as little as 27" and had good results. As pointed out, omni's are directional at higher frequencies. If you do go with a small spread, angle the microphones to the outside of the PA stacks. This will help make the image wider. Good luck.

[blu666z]

Thanks for all the info.  Maybe I'll just build me a bar so I don't have to hassle anybody.

-Kevin

[olyrc]

How are the tapers at Dead shows?  Cool enough to let me throw a small mic on their stand?  Orientation on omnis make no difference right?

-Kevin

What, my stand isn't good enough for you?

[blu666z]

Nothing wrong with your stand, but to get them any distance apart I would have to have one on another stand.  Think I'm just gonna build a bar myself though with some alligator clips on the ends or something then clamp that to your stand....are we actually in the section?

-Kevin

[Brian Skalinder]

Two words:  Jecklin disc.

[blu666z]

Two more:  Too lazy.

-Kevin

[Brian Skalinder]

Alright, Mr. Lazy-pants, two more, then:  nerf ball.

[blu666z]

-Kevin

[blu666z]

So basically with omnis you either need good seperation OR a baffle right?  No need for a nerf/jelkin if you have a nice spread(see Britney post in Open Forum).

-Kevin

[Brian Skalinder]

So basically with omnis you either need good seperation OR a baffle right?  No need for a nerf/jelkin if you have a nice spread(see Britney post in Open Forum).

That's my understanding.  Personally, I'd find it easier to rig up a nerf ball than carry 2 stands (or use someone else's), find a spot for both stands, and set up both stands.  That reminds me...gotta build a Jecklin disc for outdoor summer shows!

[Tim]

yep, you've got it...

[olyrc]

Nothing wrong with your stand, but to get them any distance apart I would have to have one on another stand.  Think I'm just gonna build a bar myself though with some alligator clips on the ends or something then clamp that to your stand....are we actually in the section?

-Kevin

We're a couple rows FOB.

[blu666z]

 Personally, I'd find it easier to rig up a nerf ball than carry 2 stands (or use someone else's), find a spot for both stands, and set up both stands.  That reminds me...gotta build a Jecklin disc for outdoor summer shows!

Well here is my idea.  Gonna hit Lowe's this weekend.  Grab a piece of 1/4-1/2" metal rod.  Throw an adapter in the middle somehow to mount to the stand.  Got an older soldering helper that has alligator clips that will swivel in all directions and mount those to each end...voila!  3' seperation...maybe make it come apart in the middle for ease of carrying around.

-Kevin

[ChrisV]

I thought Dead was only allowing taping from lawn section?
Could be wrong though, maybe they will have a tapersection setup at Gorge.

[Tim]

very very similar results, but the j-disc really cuts the mud and boom out of omni recordings due to its better isolation.

So much so that I think more people would run omnis indoors if they heard the results!!

I know this is how I should be running at the Fox... omni's sound great down there but I really shouldn't be pushing my luck by running split's.

[blu666z]

I thought Dead was only allowing taping from lawn section?

That would suck at the Gorge.

-Kevin

[Tim]

FOB with the dead requires a bit of discreteness. Wait until tour starts and some reports come back from the field. Their mood changes with every tour

[blu666z]

Where is the section at?  Tapers tickets?

-Kevin

[olyrc]

FOB with the dead requires a bit of discreteness. Wait until tour starts and some reports come back from the field. Their mood changes with every tour

*Crossing fingers*

[olyrc]

I thought Dead was only allowing taping from lawn section?
Could be wrong though, maybe they will have a tapersection setup at Gorge.

Chris - are you going too?

-Ryan

[creekfreak]

do they make any hardware that you can use to run 3' or so that doesn't require making it yourself?

[phishn]

if you ran a 3 mic mix, 2 omni's split at a large distance and a card in the middle, would the theoretical cone effect dissipate?

[EScott]

"do they make any hardware that you can use to run 3' or so that doesn't require making it yourself?"

With Schoeps actives, you can use 2 x NOS bars with the M-S mount.

Eric

[Tim]

you could do that, though I might run something a bit more directional in the middle... perhaps a hyper, even a shotgun.

the Oade's did a few 4 mic mix tapes of the GD in the 80's, 2 split omni's+2 hypers x/y 90*... some of them sound very nice.

[Swampy]

For thoes that want to run split omnis, you could try somthing like this: http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=18307;start=15 scroll down to the middle of the page... Its a boom arm with two sections, but instead of both of the sections being out like how you would triditionally think of a boom stand, I made one stick out the bottom, and I clamp to that side...

[creekfreak]

"do they make any hardware that you can use to run 3' or so that doesn't require making it yourself?"

With Schoeps actives, you can use 2 x NOS bars with the M-S mount.

Eric

yea, that would work if I had some mk2 or 3's, but I have 41's and a set of ADK TL's to run the omni's with

[ChrisV]

Chris - are you going too?

-Ryan

Probably not, didn't get any tix or anything.   Not really my type of music.  My dad was semi-interested in going just for ABB(they aren't playing the Portland date) but he usually isn't much for traveling very far to see a band.   But who knows, it is on a Saturday so that always makes it temping and my sister goes to school in Ellensburg so could combine it to a visiting trip.   So there is a slight chance we could end up going.

[olyrc]

Chris - are you going too?

-Ryan

Probably not, didn't get any tix or anything.   Not really my type of music.  My dad was semi-interested in going just for ABB(they aren't playing the Portland date) but he usually isn't much for traveling very far to see a band.   But who knows, it is on a Saturday so that always makes it temping and my sister goes to school in Ellensburg so could combine it to a visiting trip.   So there is a slight chance we could end up going.

Yep, I'm mainly going for ABB myself.  Haven't seen the Dead since Jerry.

Hopefully we'll be cool FOB for at least the ABB set since they are pretty cool about taping from anywhere.

[Charlies]

So basically with omnis you either need good seperation OR a baffle right?  
-Kevin

Kevin:  I disagree with this and in fact think that exaggerated separation or over-baffling may exaggerate the results.  It seems to me that running 6 feet apart would be like looking into one of those mirrors that makes a tall man look short and a skinny man look fat.  I've run omnis on stage spread 17 or so cm and 180 degrees (i.e. each cap pointed out toward a different side of the stage) and also from the ts INSIDE, spread at 17or so cm and caps pointed at the stacks with fairly realistic separation.   You might want to give it a shot before your main gigs.  My results make me question whether the actual omnis specs would actually be reflected on a tape made in our situations.  Not really a pro at running omnis, but these are my 2 cents fwiw.  Good luck, but give the lazy man's, one stand omni approach a shot.  

[Lee]

you could run two boom stand arms on either side of a T-bar and theoretically get 6' or so...

-------0       0----------
         |____|

(0------- are boom stand arms, the U shaped thingy at the bottom is an AKG t-bar)

[Swampy]

some more pics for creekfreak;
Here is the original boom that I have:

boom extended

Just slide half to the opposite side

has a 5/8 thread, so fits right on the top of my taping stand

mic on thread on closest side, other mic clamped to the opposite side

[Swampy]

BTW, they are split about 3 1/2 / 4 feet... I need to measure it exactly though...

[BCostigan]

Nice work Alex.    Personally I'd be a little hesitant to run the TLs like that....they're heavy.  I'm a worry wart anyway.

[Brian Skalinder]

do they make any hardware that you can use to run 3' or so that doesn't require making it yourself?

Stock?  Dunno.  But APIC will custom make just about anything for you.

I have a 2'-6' variable extension they made for me.  Threaded 5/8"-27 female on the bottom, male on the top.  Cost me about $60 if I recall correctly.  Not outrageous, but not cheap either.  I may just try to find myself a 5/8"-27 male barrel so I can run split omnis with this thing (or I could always clamp one side).  Still gotta work out how I attach it to the top of my stand, but...I think I'll figure something out.

[Brian]

very very similar results, but the j-disc really cuts the mud and boom out of omni recordings due to its better isolation.

So much so that I think more people would run omnis indoors if they heard the results!!

I know this is how I should be running at the Fox... omni's sound great down there but I really shouldn't be pushing my luck by running split's.

i'm thinking split omnis at Mississippi Nights. Clamp one on the post and throw the other on my stand opposite side. think this would work Tim? it's gonna be close to 6' or more might be too wide that close. i should experiment with the Ozomatli this sunday and see if i can even get away with it. they allow taping right?

[Swampy]

Nice work Alex.    Personally I'd be a little hesitant to run the TLs like that....they're heavy.  I'm a worry wart anyway.

Ya, I donno if Id throw TLs up there split 4 feet... Mabe 2 feet would be work...

[Tim]

So basically with omnis you either need good seperation OR a baffle right?  
-Kevin

Kevin:  I disagree with this and in fact think that exaggerated separation or over-baffling may exaggerate the results.  It seems to me that running 6 feet apart would be like looking into one of those mirrors that makes a tall man look short and a skinny man look fat.  I've run omnis on stage spread 17 or so cm and 180 degrees (i.e. each cap pointed out toward a different side of the stage) and also from the ts INSIDE, spread at 17or so cm and caps pointed at the stacks with fairly realistic separation.   You might want to give it a shot before your main gigs.  My results make me question whether the actual omnis specs would actually be reflected on a tape made in our situations.  Not really a pro at running omnis, but these are my 2 cents fwiw.  Good luck, but give the lazy man's, one stand omni approach a shot.  

on stage you wouldn't want to run very wide. Likewise at the Fox in Boulder I ran 5 feet and it is certainly too wide for being 18' from the stage with a wide PA.

but with a huge ampitheatre sized PA, that far back from the stage 6 feet shouldn't be a problem.

it's a function of the size/width of the PA and your distance from it.

[Todd R]

Thought I already mentioned this way of doing split omnis on one stand, though perhaps it was on the old Oade board.  At any rate, here it is:

A relatively cheap and easy way of running split omnis on one stand, with about a 3' split is to get the Atlas 5/8" to 5/8" female coupler, AD-5B ($4.50 from markertek.com) and the Atlas 31" extension tube, TB-58X ($9).  Take your clamp (you do have one right?--well if not get one) and mount it to the top of your stand at the 5/8" stud side by using the AD-5B coupler.  This will leave you with your stand with a clamp attached at the top, with the clamping portion of the clamp unused.  

Take the 31" extension tube and attach it (horizontally) to the stand by inserting it into the clamp and tightening the clamp to the extension tube.  You've now got a 31" spread for your mics, and the extension tube already has the correct 5/8" threading on either end.  Attach your shockmounts or mic clips to the extension tube, and by now you've got a 3' spread or so for your omni mics.

[Tim]

very very similar results, but the j-disc really cuts the mud and boom out of omni recordings due to its better isolation.

So much so that I think more people would run omnis indoors if they heard the results!!

I know this is how I should be running at the Fox... omni's sound great down there but I really shouldn't be pushing my luck by running split's.

i'm thinking split omnis at Mississippi Nights. Clamp one on the post and throw the other on my stand opposite side. think this would work Tim? it's gonna be close to 6' or more might be too wide that close. i should experiment with the Ozomatli this sunday and see if i can even get away with it. they allow taping right?

I wouldn't run very wide down there, 5' was too far at the fox. The other consideration is how obnoxious can you get away with acting down there before someone gets annoyed and they ban taping on the front rail? With the LD's I try and be extra considerate when I run in one of my local venues.

I'd be interested in hearing how it sounds, it could work... but if it doesn't the results could be pretty bad   I'd definitely try it though.

One note on why this works, The Fox in Boulder is *pristine* sounding. Easily the best sounding indoor venue I've ever been to. It has a *very* high ceiling, wide stage and pa hung halfway up with subs on the floor. All of the walls, the cieling, and the exposed duct are acoustically treated. When the room is empty (no band, no music, a few people) it is pretty dead sounding.

[creekfreak]

Thought I already mentioned this way of doing split omnis on one stand, though perhaps it was on the old Oade board.  At any rate, here it is:

A relatively cheap and easy way of running split omnis on one stand, with about a 3' split is to get the Atlas 5/8" to 5/8" female coupler, AD-5B ($4.50 from markertek.com) and the Atlas 31" extension tube, TB-58X ($9).  Take your clamp (you do have one right?--well if not get one) and mount it to the top of your stand at the 5/8" stud side by using the AD-5B coupler.  This will leave you with your stand with a clamp attached at the top, with the clamping portion of the clamp unused.  

Take the 31" extension tube and attach it (horizontally) to the stand by inserting it into the clamp and tightening the clamp to the extension tube.  You've now got a 31" spread for your mics, and the extension tube already has the correct 5/8" threading on either end.  Attach your shockmounts or mic clips to the extension tube, and by now you've got a 3' spread or so for your omni mics.

I like that, cheap and easy, thanks and +T

[creekfreak]

I will try that next...one thing at a time

[Tim]

:doubledragon:

[Brian]

I wouldn't run very wide down there, 5' was too far at the fox. The other consideration is how obnoxious can you get away with acting down there before someone gets annoyed and they ban taping on the front rail? With the LD's I try and be extra considerate when I run in one of my local venues.

I'd be interested in hearing how it sounds, it could work... but if it doesn't the results could be pretty bad   I'd definitely try it though.

One note on why this works, The Fox in Boulder is *pristine* sounding. Easily the best sounding indoor venue I've ever been to. It has a *very* high ceiling, wide stage and pa hung halfway up with subs on the floor. All of the walls, the cieling, and the exposed duct are acoustically treated. When the room is empty (no band, no music, a few people) it is pretty dead sounding.

good point wouldn't want to lose front rail privileges at Mississippi Nights. However I have a pretty good track record with the security folks there.  i've always been pretty considerate and friendly.

after thinking about it some more i don't think i'll be able to get away with clamping one mic on the post because that would cause the spacing to be too wide if i wanted to keep it lined up with the stage and of equal distance form eachother.  

I think i'll just setup both of my stands and if one of hte security or band crew asks me to limit it to one stand then that will be just fine.  I'll let you and anybody else who cares know how it goes. i think being that close it will sound pretty darn good. just gonna have to judge the spacing.

Thanks

[Brian Skalinder]

So...how important is it to be absolutely dead center?

Most of my outdoor recording I end up off to the side 2-6' or so b/c the sound engineers don't want their view obstructed.  I could run head-heightish, but that strikes me as too low for omnis.

[Tim]

oh yeah, do it on a night when Animal is working or some of other engineer who like's it really, really L O U D

[Brian]

j-disc :fight:

another summer project for my cousin and I. let's see.....we have the pedal board, the amp cases, and now the j-disc.  he's so good at carpentry why waste my time doing a half assed j-disc

[Brian]

oh yeah, do it on a night when Animal is working or some of other engineer who like's it really, really L O U D

:devilrock: :devilrock:

should have tried with the Drive By Truckers a couple of weeks back but i had stupid homework i'm pretty mad i missed them.

[Tim]

So...how important is it to be absolutely dead center?

Most of my outdoor recording I end up off to the side 2-6' or so b/c the sound engineers don't want their view obstructed.  I could run head-heightish, but that strikes me as too low for omnis.

the close to center the better but you can get away with running a few feet off.

if it's fairly loud don't be afraid to go just behind the board if you can be more centered. I'd rather be 15' back and centered than fob and too far off to the side.

[Tim]

bring it on old man

[Tim]

[plucks]

just received Ian Stone's Phish 7-8-03 omni tapes.  He spread them about 40' centered around the FOH area.  
WOW!  Great sound to them.  THe MBHO omni caps did a great job.  The bass is thick, the kick thumps, and it just sounds good
I know i was thinking "what the hell is he doing spreading them that far??!!"
No black hole in the middle, which is the biggest concern.  

So, you can split them that far apart and still have it work out excellently.  

[Tim]

it's related to the width of the PA stacks and your distance from them. If you are a few hundred feet back and the stacks are very wide (like at a typical phish show) then you should be okay...

[marc0789]

....or you can split 'em a foot at times, with great results. Eric Swanson's 03 McPanic tapes, adk a51 tl(omni)>v2>1k are excellent. front or second row ts, can't recall.

[Brian]

since this seems like hte official split omnis thread....

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=18841

can't wait to keep trying these type of things out. as moke has discussed many times before, he really feels that the j-disc would really help with cutting down on the boom that most of us seem to despise.  

[phishn]

What would happen with a wide split pointing each omni at the opposite stack kinda crisscrossed?  Then criss cross the cables where the left mic would be the right channel and the right mic would be the left channel?  Would the cone effect go away and allow a wide split?

[Brian]

if anything, at least in my mind, this would make the phase cancellation issues a lot worse, especially in the high frequencies since omnis are more directional at the high frequencies. it's hard to explain without drawing it out and i suck at ascii art.  

[wbrisette]

All this talk of Split Omnis and I haven't responded yet, what the hell is wrong with me? ;-)

I've been using a 1 meter piece of wood that I custom made for about 18 months now. I use a simple C-Clamp and a custom piece of wood to hold it onto the microphone stand. Works great and I only need 1 stand to do this. I usually run 3 or 4 mics with a 4 channel mixer (Wendt X4).

For those who are lazy and don't want to make their own 1 meter spreader, you can buy one from Wes Dooley (AEA). You can see them and then faint at the cost here:

http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/Microphone_Array_Positioners.html

For those who want to sample a nice four mic / 2 channel recording, go to Archive.org and look at the Big Head Todd show I did at Austin Music Hall.

Wayne

[Rob D.]

Here's one way to split them/how I do it:

[ts]

Yea, the 3/8 inch hex bar, with sabra mounts is def. the easiest. I bought 2 12 foot lengths of hex bar and cut many diff. sizes from it, for myself and others. I use a 39 inch for omnis. Very cost effective, although finding the hex bar is not easy. I bought it from a local steel supplier. After cutting to length and finishing the ends, some polishing needs to be done.

[Rob D.]

Yea, the 3/8 inch hex bar, with sabra mounts is def. the easiest. I bought 2 12 foot lengths of hex bar and cut many diff. sizes from it, for myself and others. I use a 39 inch for omnis. Very cost effective, although finding the hex bar is not easy. I bought it from a local steel supplier. After cutting to length and finishing the ends, some polishing needs to be done.

You found a lengthy hex bar? What you see in my pic is a circular bar I picked up at home depot. I'd love to replace it with a long hex bar, though.

[ts]

I thought that was a hex bar.  I might have some pieces laying around. Let me know if you'd like one. I think 39 inches was the same length as that real expensive Schoeps bar, which is why I cut mine to 39 in.(1000 mm). Made my own kwon type bars, for NOS and DIN.
TS

[Todd R]

Another split omni experiment: 6.6.04 Mule show in Vail.  Tim and I both did the split omnis deal.  My AKG 480/ck62>V3 source is up on COtapers.org.  FOB/DFC, at about 50', omnis split 10'.  Sound is pretty damn good, esp at very high volume levels, and the show was incredible.

[creekfreak]

nothing is smoother than omni's, after listening to 4 recordings I did with them, some spread around 3', some 7-8 inches, both sound different, but very good.

[mickeybs]

I always heard that you didnt have to separate omni's any wider than the width of a cap bill,,,,, The only thing  is the 360* crowd noise!

[Tim]

I always heard that you didnt have to separate omni's any wider than the width of a cap bill,,,,, The only thing  is the 360* crowd noise!

you don't have to but it sure helps the stereo image... wide but not too wide, it's trial and error.

[wbrisette]

you don't have to but it sure helps the stereo image... wide but not too wide, it's trial and error.

In "classic" split mode, used for years recording classical music, the rule was approximately 1 metre apart. This gave the best overall image of the music while it prevented the "hole in the middle" effect that occurs when you spread omni's too wide. There is certainly some trial and error involved, but if you go back and study why and how things were done in the past, things start to make a lot more sense.

A very good book to look for is "On Location Recording Techniques" by Bruce Bartlett & Jenny Bartlett. This book provides a lot of great background information on the why's. Not so much on the how's, but definitely something I recommend to people.

Wayne

[bagtagsell]

I am going to be running splits, with card in the middle this thursday for yonder.  If, and only if, I can build some steel contraption to hold up my TLS.  I am very intriquied by this omni notion

[wbrisette]

What I did was build my own 1 meter bar. I use the Shure vertical mount, and put the cards (sr-77's) on them, then I run two Omni's (QTC-1's) 1 meter from each other on my home built wooden bar.

If you opt to use four mics, you must almost always use some sort of headphones to really mix on-location. Last week I left my earphones at home and tried to do it by the seat of my pants (ie. flying blind), the tape sucks and I apologized to my buddy whose band it was that I was recording. Mixing is probably the hardest thing to do with the four mics out in the field.

Wayne

[mattb]

Hmmm. I just got some omni caps for my AT933s and my next outing is the Ropeadope NMS at the Fox. I'm toying wityh the idea of running them for that with an 18" gooseneck (from SP) I've had laying around for years. I may even be able to come up with some kind of baffle (ghetto style most likely) between now and then.
I'm concerned with being at the Fox, and in the section which is right by the bar. I love that sweet omni sound when it's good, but I also hate a lot of chatter. With all the different acts and the long duration of the NMS, it seems there may be some people there waiting out bands they don't give a shit about which would raise the chatter level considerably.

I'm also considering hypers just for the chatter factor. Then I've got the ol' standby cards too...

Thoughts?

[boa]

I know this is how I should be running at the Fox... omni's sound great down there but I really shouldn't be pushing my luck by running split's.

I love running 4061's about 24" - 36" spaced at the Fox in StL. I use a wire hangar and cut the bottom rung at the halfway point and then even out the bends until I have a very wide and short "T". I tape this to a stand or surface and then attach the 4061's with the supplied clips.

[macdaddy]

I know this is how I should be running at the Fox... omni's sound great down there but I really shouldn't be pushing my luck by running split's.

I love running 4061's about 24" - 36" spaced at the Fox in StL. I use a wire hangar and cut the bottom rung at the halfway point and then even out the bends until I have a very wide and short "T". I tape this to a stand or surface and then attach the 4061's with the supplied clips.

nice!

[Tim]

In "classic" split mode, used for years recording classical music, the rule was approximately 1 metre apart. This gave the best overall image of the music while it prevented the "hole in the middle" effect that occurs when you spread omni's too wide.

but we're talking about being much farther from the sound source and recording off of a wide pa... totally different situation than classical recordings.

[wbrisette]

In "classic" split mode, used for years recording classical music, the rule was approximately 1 metre apart. This gave the best overall image of the music while it prevented the "hole in the middle" effect that occurs when you spread omni's too wide.

but we're talking about being much farther from the sound source and recording off of a wide pa... totally different situation than classical recordings.

Not necessarily. In some of the older recordings done back in the 40's and 50's and even well into the 60's these configurations and distances approximate to what we have were being done with great results.

I think the proof is in the pudding. Go check out some of the shows I put on archive.org (just do a search for QTC-1, I think I'm the only person who has posted a show using these mics) and listen for yourself. Yes, there is more to it than just spacing, and more to it than just mixing, it's a combination of right location, right mixing techniques, and of course right spacing. Either way, listen and judge for yourself.

Wayne