Topic: ua-5 question

[sweatboard]

Ok, I'm runnig 2 at853rx's >warm mod ua-5>jb3.  I want to make sure I get all my setting right.  I should run lo-z, adv off, input in stereo mode, 44.1khz, rec source analog even though I'm going to the digital in in my jb3 from optical out on the ua-5, set switch to optical on the back, sens buttons should be around 9-10 o'clock, what should I do with the input volume on the back?  The optical should go line in into the jukebox, set to wav. files 44.1, gain to 0, source to line in, synchro off and continuous off, does this sound about right?  Also, do I need to put firmware onto my ua-5, it's had a mod so I don't know if it would be dangerous to hook it up to the computer to download the firmware?  How do I turn off the thing that tells the jb3 to seperate tracks on long recordings?  Thank You.

[Ray76]

that is right bud. on the back, the input volume doesnt matter, unless you are running into the inputs back there. OPTICAL IN on the jb3, since you are using an optical cable to runto the jb3 from the ua5. Recording source is ANALOG, since the signal coming from your mics is analog

the seperation thing on long recordings is a firmware thing with the jb3, i think,. go to www.creative.com, go to support, and click on software auto detect and itll hook you up.

goodlluck bro!!

+T
ray

[sweatboard]

how do I disable the seperation, I got the jb3 used so I don't know if it's on it or not.  Also, are you saying that the recording source button on the ua-5 should be digital and not analog?  That was confusing me because why would I select analog when I'm going digital?/

[Ray76]

no, analog. the recording source is a analog source. ie microphone.

ray

[Ray76]

how do I disable the seperation, I got the jb3 used so I don't know if it's on it or not.  Also, are you saying that the recording source button on the ua-5 should be digital and not analog?  That was confusing me because why would I select analog when I'm going digital?/

go to www.creative.com and under support, there is a software auto detect feature that will tell you if you have the updated firmware. make sure the jb3 is on and connected via usb(not firewire) and it works great.

Ray

[sweatboard]

Thanks Ray, Should I update the firmware and just make sure the seperation thing is off?

[Ray76]

just update the firmware(use the autodetect) and it should be ok.

Ray

[Electric Cowgirl]

Here's some whys for anyone that is interested...please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lo-Z because you are using Lo-Z XLR cables to connect your mics to the UA5.

Stereo input because you have 2 mics plugged in.

Analog record source because your mics are sending an analog signal into the UA5, which then coverts the signal to digital using the internal a/d before sending the sounds out to your recording device.

Adv off, only if you are NOT recording at 24bits.  If you want to do 24bit you must flip this switch to on.

Optical switch is right for this situation, clearly you would change it to coax if you wanted to record to DAT.  Switch does not matter for USB or analog outputs.

I turn the headphone power off to save batteries.  Check this thread out for the Ultimate UA5 battery http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=19338.0

It's not a bad idea to start the gain nobs around 9-10o'clock until you get used to your rigs hotness.  You may find that you will need to turn it up to get optimum levels.  If you need to turn it up, don't freak out, turn it up slow so your recording doesn't have a major volume jump.  IMO you want the levels around -12 to -6db with some louder peaks not exceeding 0db. 

[sweatboard]

Can someone tell me about the db's.  I set the db to 0 on my jukebox, correct?  How can I tell what the levels are at to make sure they don't exceed 0db's?  Thanks,

Brian

[poorlyconditioned]

Here's some whys for anyone that is interested...please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lo-Z because you are using Lo-Z XLR cables to connect your mics to the UA5.

Stereo input because you have 2 mics plugged in.

Analog record source because your mics are sending an analog signal into the UA5, which then coverts the signal to digital using the internal a/d before sending the sounds out to your recording device.

Adv off, only if you are NOT recording at 24bits.  If you want to do 24bit you must flip this switch to on.

Optical switch is right for this situation, clearly you would change it to coax if you wanted to record to DAT.  Switch does not matter for USB or analog outputs.

I turn the headphone power off to save batteries.  Check this thread out for the Ultimate UA5 battery http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=19338.0

It's not a bad idea to start the gain nobs around 9-10o'clock until you get used to your rigs hotness.  You may find that you will need to turn it up to get optimum levels.  If you need to turn it up, don't freak out, turn it up slow so your recording doesn't have a major volume jump.  IMO you want the levels around -12 to -6db with some louder peaks not exceeding 0db. 

Can I ask a question about the UA5 too?  I've been using it for a while, but for some reason I really need to crank the levels.  I'm never below 3 oclock, usually around 4!  Is there some other gain control I'm missing out on?  I'm running the UA5 optical out into the NJB3 line/digital input.  I'm recording medium loud folk/rock shows in small clubs.

The only funny thing is that I'm using the 1/4" TS (unbalanced) connectors on the inputs.  My mics are battery powered, so I've got an adapter that converts 1/8" stereo to 2x1/4".  Is it possible that the gain might be higher for the XLR inputs? I tried an AT853Rx (phantom power) and it seems I still have to turn up the gain quite a bit.  But I haven't tried recording anything with the XLR yet.

Thanks for any help...
  Richard

[Ray76]

Can someone tell me about the db's.  I set the db to 0 on my jukebox, correct?  How can I tell what the levels are at to make sure they don't exceed 0db's?  Thanks,

Brian

The upgraded firmware for the jb3 has levels which work pretty well once you know their meaning.
on the jb3, you want to have the levels touching the dotted lines, occasionally going over is ok, so long as it isnt too much.

Ray

[Electric Cowgirl]

Richard-

I think XLRs will improve your situation, but I don't know that for a fact.  Perhaps you can borrow some to see if your levels are hotter?  Then if you like it you can buy a pair.  If you try this post back and let us know the results

[poorlyconditioned]

Richard-

I think XLRs will improve your situation, but I don't know that for a fact.  Perhaps you can borrow some to see if your levels are hotter?  Then if you like it you can buy a pair.  If you try this post back and let us know the results

Hi Becky.  XLR did not change the situtation.  I just recorded a very(!) loud show (Rheostatics) in a boomy club and my levels were at 2 O'clock.  This gave perfect levels, with just a few peaks beyond 3dB and no clipping.  I was using AT853Rx (phantom adapters from AT).  These mics are rated at -43dB sensitivity.

I did a simple calculation (correct me if I'm wrong).  Say the gain knob runs from about 7:00 (left, zero gain) to 5:00 (right, max gain).  If the overall gain is from zero to 50dB, then each "clock hour" division should give about 5dB gain.  In that case, 2:00 is approx 35dB gain.  That seems too high considering I'm using a hand built preamp with 20dB gain for line in on my Minidisc.

I wonder if there is something else going on.  There are no other gain controls, right?  I've also got "monitor SW" turned off.

Thanks for any pointers...
  Richard

[Electric Cowgirl]

Hmmm....there aren't any other gain controls that I know of.    Did you plug the mics directly into the UA5 or did you go into your preamp first?  If the latter, try going right into the UA5.  Let us know the results!

[poorlyconditioned]

Hmmm....there aren't any other gain controls that I know of.    Did you plug the mics directly into the UA5 or did you go into your preamp first?  If the latter, try going right into the UA5.  Let us know the results!

Yep, mics were directly into the UA5 in both cases.

I was just mentioning the preamp as an example, it seems that 20dB gain is the right value for my recording sessions, yet the UA5 seems to need to be set higher.

I'll do some systematic testing and report back.  What I'm thinking is take a signal, say a tone coming from line out of my soundcard, and input it into my minidisc.  Then insert the UA5 in between and see if I get any gain.  I'll try both analog (line) and optical ouptut of the UA5.

  Richard

[Brian Skalinder]

If the overall gain is from zero to 50dB, then each "clock hour" division should give about 5dB gain.

Assuming it's linear, that makes sense...but I don't believe it is given how sensitive the gain knobs get at high gain.

[el gato]

Richard

I almost always have to set my gains right at 3 o'clock.  It has been my experience that once you move past 3, it takes a much smaller turn to get a larger boost (hope that makes sense)

[poorlyconditioned]

Richard

I almost always have to set my gains right at 3 o'clock.  It has been my experience that once you move past 3, it takes a much smaller turn to get a larger boost (hope that makes sense)

OK, thanks for the help.  AS Brian said, maybe things are nonlinear -- gain changes getting more extreme as you move to the right.  I'll run some tests and report back.

  Richard

[leegeddy]

Richard

I almost always have to set my gains right at 3 o'clock.  It has been my experience that once you move past 3, it takes a much smaller turn to get a larger boost (hope that makes sense)

OK, thanks for the help.  AS Brian said, maybe things are nonlinear -- gain changes getting more extreme as you move to the right.  I'll run some tests and report back.

  Richard

i highly doubt that the gain pot on the ua5 is nonlinear.

marc

[Brian Skalinder]

i highly doubt that the gain pot on the ua5 is nonlinear.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology.  Let me explain it this way:  the gain knobs seem more sensitive as I turn them up.  For example, turning the knob one clock-hour, from 09:00 to 10:00 seems to increase the gain less than turning the knob one clock-hour from 04:00 to 05:00.  I've not measured this, but that's the best way I can think of explaining the increased sensitivity I sense at higher gain.

[§†∑∫åµÞ≥¥]

i highly doubt that the gain pot on the ua5 is nonlinear.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology.  Let me explain it this way:  the gain knobs seem more sensitive as I turn them up.  For example, turning the knob one clock-hour, from 09:00 to 10:00 seems to increase the gain less than turning the knob one clock-hour from 04:00 to 05:00.  I've not measured this, but that's the best way I can think of explaining the increased sensitivity I sense at higher gain.

Fwiw, I have noticed the same thing with my A-T933/853 > A-T8533x > UA-5.

[leegeddy]

i highly doubt that the gain pot on the ua5 is nonlinear.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology.  Let me explain it this way:  the gain knobs seem more sensitive as I turn them up.  For example, turning the knob one clock-hour, from 09:00 to 10:00 seems to increase the gain less than turning the knob one clock-hour from 04:00 to 05:00.  I've not measured this, but that's the best way I can think of explaining the increased sensitivity I sense at higher gain.

brian;

i understand what you're saying and you're 100% correct. i'm quite sure that gain pots in the ua5 is linear; however, the actual resultant GAIN is not.
hopefully the following 2 graphs will help to explain.

(this is based on Analog Devices SSM2017/2019 Gain equation).

i plotted 100 resistor points representing an infinite gain pot (10000 ohm > 100 ohm). this is column A.
column B is the gain based on the gain resistor (Rg): G=1+(10000/Rg)
column C is the gain in dB: A=20*log(G)

x axis (linear) is Rg, y axis (linear) is dB:


you can see that as you turn the gain pot linearly, gain in dB goes up non-linearly (logorithmically, in fact).

if you change the x axis to log scale, then it staightens out.


marc

[Ray76]

my brain is bleeding.

[Brian Skalinder]

i understand what you're saying and you're 100% correct. i'm quite sure that gain pots in the ua5 is linear; however, the actual resultant GAIN is not.
hopefully the following 2 graphs will help to explain.

Yup, explains perfectly.  Big thanks, Marc!

[dklein]

Log(arithmic) taper pots are sometimes called audio pots.  But then even those are typically not true log pots...so almost every pot ends up being more 'powerful' at the end of it's range when we're talking about audio.  A log pot is a better approximation of how we perceive loudness.
(and no, taper isn't a reference to us.  It describes how the change 'tapers' - linear or log)

[jeromejello]

Richard

I almost always have to set my gains right at 3 o'clock.  It has been my experience that once you move past 3, it takes a much smaller turn to get a larger boost (hope that makes sense)

thanks for the 411... i was trying to get a base line for the gain and i taped the opening act at about 11 o'clock and thought it wasnt to the fullest performance... the guys next to me had thier gain all the way to 5 o'clock... i thought i should tap it out... i went around 2-3 o'clock and adjusted the main a tad (about 11 o'clock).  i was definately under my meters... once i get a svu1 (and some more logged time) i will get a better hold on these knobs.

[poorlyconditioned]

Richard

I almost always have to set my gains right at 3 o'clock.  It has been my experience that once you move past 3, it takes a much smaller turn to get a larger boost (hope that makes sense)

OK, thanks for the help.  AS Brian said, maybe things are nonlinear -- gain changes getting more extreme as you move to the right.  I'll run some tests and report back.

  Richard

I'm going to quote myself!  I did some hack experiments.  I just put a 1kHz sinewave out of my headphone jack into the UA5 Neutrix inputs.  I took the output from analog line out.  Does headphone output affect line out level?  I dunno, but I set it to max anyway.

I measured the input level with a voltmeter and got something like 130mV.  At the minimum sens the output was almost the same, 140mV.  At 9 o'clock it went up by *very* little.  At 12 o'clock it was up about 8dB. (dB power, 20*log10(Vout/Vin)).  At 3:00 it was up about 20dB. That is, at 3:00 the signal is amplified by ten times in voltage, one hundred times in power.  I didn't measure it, but between 3:00 and 5:00 there must be a *huge* change gain, going from 20 to 50dB!

So, here is my suggestion: For AT853 (sens -45dB) , start around 3:00 to give 20dB gain.  For hotter mics (eg, sens -35dB) maybe start at 12:00 for 8-10dB gain.

Damn, I just wish that control were linear in dB.  Oh well.

  Richard

[Myco]

Also, you do not necessarily need to record at 44.1, I record at 48 and then resample it to 44.1. Just set your sample rate on the UA-5 to 48 and it will record at that sample rate.

[admkrk]

unless i missunderstand the original ?, i think ya'll are looking too deep. ime, the gain level on a ua-5 depends on the mics. w/ the naks(and batts), i have the gain all but pinned(5:00?). i just tryed it w/ rode nt5s(pp) and had the gain at around midway(12:00). the only difference in the setup(exept for venue) was the mics.

so..........  afaict, were you set the gain on the ua-5 is dependent on the source you're feeding it.


.............throw your stones now.

     kirk

[poorlyconditioned]

unless i missunderstand the original ?, i think ya'll are looking too deep. ime, the gain level on a ua-5 depends on the mics. w/ the naks(and batts), i have the gain all but pinned(5:00?). i just tryed it w/ rode nt5s(pp) and had the gain at around midway(12:00). the only difference in the setup(exept for venue) was the mics.

so..........  afaict, were you set the gain on the ua-5 is dependent on the source you're feeding it.


.............throw your stones now.

     kirk

Exactly!  That is what I predicted in my last post...  Good to hear a confirmation for my undeducated guess about the right level for C4's though.

 Richard

[leegeddy]

I'm going to quote myself!  I did some hack experiments.  I just put a 1kHz sinewave out of my headphone jack into the UA5 Neutrix inputs.  I took the output from analog line out.  Does headphone output affect line out level?  I dunno, but I set it to max anyway.

I measured the input level with a voltmeter and got something like 130mV.  At the minimum sens the output was almost the same, 140mV.  At 9 o'clock it went up by *very* little.  At 12 o'clock it was up about 8dB. (dB power, 20*log10(Vout/Vin)).  At 3:00 it was up about 20dB. That is, at 3:00 the signal is amplified by ten times in voltage, one hundred times in power.  I didn't measure it, but between 3:00 and 5:00 there must be a *huge* change gain, going from 20 to 50dB!

So, here is my suggestion: For AT853 (sens -45dB) , start around 3:00 to give 20dB gain.  For hotter mics (eg, sens -35dB) maybe start at 12:00 for 8-10dB gain.

Damn, I just wish that control were linear in dB.  Oh well.

  Richard

richard;
how about this crazy idea?  use your ears to listen for the loudness of the sound and eyes to see the level meter on a recorder.   

"too much technology can dilute the experiences of the art"

marc

[poorlyconditioned]

I'm going to quote myself!  I did some hack experiments.  I just put a 1kHz sinewave out of my headphone jack into the UA5 Neutrix inputs.  I took the output from analog line out.  Does headphone output affect line out level?  I dunno, but I set it to max anyway.

I measured the input level with a voltmeter and got something like 130mV.  At the minimum sens the output was almost the same, 140mV.  At 9 o'clock it went up by *very* little.  At 12 o'clock it was up about 8dB. (dB power, 20*log10(Vout/Vin)).  At 3:00 it was up about 20dB. That is, at 3:00 the signal is amplified by ten times in voltage, one hundred times in power.  I didn't measure it, but between 3:00 and 5:00 there must be a *huge* change gain, going from 20 to 50dB!

So, here is my suggestion: For AT853 (sens -45dB) , start around 3:00 to give 20dB gain.  For hotter mics (eg, sens -35dB) maybe start at 12:00 for 8-10dB gain.

Damn, I just wish that control were linear in dB.  Oh well.

  Richard

richard;
how about this crazy idea?  use your ears to listen for the loudness of the sound and eyes to see the level meter on a recorder.   

"too much technology can dilute the experiences of the art"

marc

Yeah, that is true, but it is good to have a starting point.  The original point of my post was my frustration with so much gain being in the last two "hours" of the gain knob...

Anyway, let's close the thread.  You're right, out with the tech and in with the taping.

By the way, I just recorded a great show tonight using AT853H > UA5 > NJB3.  Love those hyper caps

  Richard