Topic: Preamp quality: MOTU Ultralite vs. Samson Mixpad (vs. Presonus Firebox)

[taper420]

So I'm getting ready to do an a/b blind comparison here. I've used the mixpad for years and I've always been happy with the results. I just got the ultralite and I've heard less then great things about the preamps.... I'm saving up to get the black lion upgrades but thats off some time in the future. So I wanna know which way I should go for now. Even though they have been critiqued, i'm still thinking the preamps in the ultralite might be better than the mixpads due to the pricepoint. I'm going to setup one microphone pointed at my boombox and run that into a phantom box, then into an art splitcom xlr splitter, then one into the ultralite and the other into the mixpad and then into the ultralite. then I'll have a friend play them so i dont know which one i'm hearing... is there anything wrong with that setup? the one weakpoint i think would be the xlr splitter because one output is parallel and the other goes through a transformer....will that mess it all up? Should I just run a wired split?

So anyone have any predictions on what i'll find?

Edit: I just realised there's more I'll have to do for a true A/B. I need to make sure the levels are as close as visibly possible and then I should normalize the files to a set db (say -3). All right I think that should give me a true comparison, anybody see any other holes?

[poorlyconditioned]

So I'm getting ready to do an a/b blind comparison here. I've used the mixpad for years and I've always been happy with the results. I just got the ultralite and I've heard less then great things about the preamps.... I'm saving up to get the black lion upgrades but thats off some time in the future. So I wanna know which way I should go for now. Even though they have been critiqued, i'm still thinking the preamps in the ultralite might be better than the mixpads due to the pricepoint. I'm going to setup one microphone pointed at my boombox and run that into a phantom box, then into an art splitcom xlr splitter, then one into the ultralite and the other into the mixpad and then into the ultralite. then I'll have a friend play them so i dont know which one i'm hearing... is there anything wrong with that setup? the one weakpoint i think would be the xlr splitter because one output is parallel and the other goes through a transformer....will that mess it all up? Should I just run a wired split?

So anyone have any projections on what i'll find?

No predictions, but I'd love to hear the results

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

Hi Listening tests are one thing, and hey its the most importaint thing in order to evaluate the preamps. IMO You should start with a 1 k tone and measure the outputs of both preamps so that you are using the same amount of gain. The  built in vu meters will be no where near accurate enough. The problem with listening is making sure that both outputs are at the same level because of the fletcher munson curve, you have to have levels be accurate. Use a ac volt meter and measure the output in mV. That is the starting point, I would get the outputs wired with a momentary switch so that when the switch is pressed in the preamp A is on, when it is released preamp B is on. Record a single track and see if you can hear the switch over. I can not go into details on how to make such a switch but I am sure Richard can give you good instructions. Its pretty simple I hope my two cents Helps you I would like to know how you make out as well!

Chris Church

So I'm getting ready to do an a/b blind comparison here. I've used the mixpad for years and I've always been happy with the results. I just got the ultralite and I've heard less then great things about the preamps.... I'm saving up to get the black lion upgrades but thats off some time in the future. So I wanna know which way I should go for now. Even though they have been critiqued, i'm still thinking the preamps in the ultralite might be better than the mixpads due to the pricepoint. I'm going to setup one microphone pointed at my boombox and run that into a phantom box, then into an art splitcom xlr splitter, then one into the ultralite and the other into the mixpad and then into the ultralite. then I'll have a friend play them so i dont know which one i'm hearing... is there anything wrong with that setup? the one weakpoint i think would be the xlr splitter because one output is parallel and the other goes through a transformer....will that mess it all up? Should I just run a wired split?

So anyone have any predictions on what i'll find?

Edit: I just realised there's more I'll have to do for a true A/B. I need to make sure the levels are as close as visibly possible and then I should normalize the files to a set db (say -3). All right I think that should give me a true comparison, anybody see any other holes?

[heath]

Hi Listening tests are one thing, and hey its the most importaint thing in order to evaluate the preamps. IMO You should start with a 1 k tone and measure the outputs of both preamps so that you are using the same amount of gain. The  built in vu meters will be no where near accurate enough. T

exactly

[RebelRebel]

and the Black Lion Mods make a world of difference to MOTU gear..

[smokydays]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

[RebelRebel]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

I seem to recall Brad (mcgowan, the boss) mentioning the ultralite specifically.

email him..

[easy jim]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

I emailed him when I bought my UltraLite.  He responded he would do the mod. for the same price as the 828mkII mod. since the innards are essentially the same.

[smokydays]

Awesome guys, thx for the info +t's

[TNJazz]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

Ultralite is 2x the price of the Firebox already, and I don't know how much of a difference you will really hear between the two when it comes to field taping.  In more controlled environments it would be very evident, but in a chatty bar taping a rock band?  Probably not. 

I will agree with Teddy that in general the Black Lion mods are a huge improvement to the stock MOTU gear though.

[poorlyconditioned]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

Ultralite is 2x the price of the Firebox already, and I don't know how much of a difference you will really hear between the two when it comes to field taping.  In more controlled environments it would be very evident, but in a chatty bar taping a rock band?  Probably not. 

I will agree with Teddy that in general the Black Lion mods are a huge improvement to the stock MOTU gear though.

I emailed BlackLion and the guy was great.  Gave me all kinds of tech info.  My impression, having not tried the MOTU, is that the stock quality is very poor, maybe even worse than a stock UA5, or at least no better.  So, you really need to figure the mod into the purchase price.  I really like the features (very compact size, front mixer, standalone operation to SPDIF!) on the MOTU, but the Firepod/firebox seem like much better value.  The stock pres are pretty good.

  Richard

[rowjimmy]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

I emailed him when I bought my UltraLite.  He responded he would do the mod. for the same price as the 828mkII mod. since the innards are essentially the same.

This is great news.
I'm sold. now if only my house was..

edit to add : +T!

[taper420]

Allright I finally got around to doing a preliminary test ....
so I dont have the best trained ears, I'm just getting started with the whole critical listening thing so I'll have some posts up soon so you can tell for yourself.... but my initial reaction was I couldn't hear much of a diffrence at all. As I listened further subtle differences began to appear. So these are just subjective opinions comparing the two, not an objective opinion of the units compared to all others. I think the Samson definetlly wins out. The MOTU is crunchier, grungier, and seems to have less clarity. The Samson seems smooth and silky in comparision. And with the levels perfectly matched using software levels, the Samson seems to have more presence. There's not much of a difference, but it's there. I know how I'll be running from now on.... I'll have to bring em both.

Now as for the future... when I can afford the black lion upgrade I most deffinetly want to get it, but heres the conundrum....

$500 ultralite base + $355 upgrade= $855 with two great preamps in a great peice of gear
$800 traveler base + $365 upgrade = $1,165 with FOUR great preamps in an AMAZING piece of gear

The $300 more for the traveler doesnt seem like that big of a deal anymore.
Might have to sell the ultralite when I have the money and go for the traveler with an upgrade instead of spending the same money for two less preamps
That's off for some time though...I'll just use the Samson till then
I've been running 3 mics lately so if I got the ultralite upgrade I would still have to lug the samson anyway...with the traveler I would finally be down to one unit (the samson only has 18v phantom so thats yet another box to bring when using it) I wonder if I could get close to enough for the traveler if I sold the mixpad and the ultralite..... ahh but then I'm stuck with 4 shitty preamps with no alternative.... nope ... I'll wait


edit: even though the levels are matched there seems to be a slight visible difference on each channel...like a snare hit will make one jump higher than the other for moment or one will decay faster than the other at certain parts. I can't pinpoint which is doing what right now....more word later....

[taper420]

FWIW I was definetly looking at the firebox and if your going to be only using it for stereo or even up to 6 channel recording, then it is definetly the way to go, from what I hear about the preamps. In fact my brother has one of the small presonus boxes (is it the inspire?) and if these have the same preamps as the firebox (can anyone confirm this?) I can do a comparison with that as well in the coming weeks. But back to what I was saying, I was hoping to use my new unit for more than just the stereo live taping that most of us here on the forum use these things for. So I needed a bare minimum of 8 channels, and I got 10 so that works out and since buying it less then a month ago I've already managed to get a paying multitrack gig, so it was definetly worth the extra investment. Just my 2 cents on the firebox debate...it's all what you intend on using it for,



....so anybody check out this alesis io 14/26 yet?

[nic]

figured I would put in my $.02 since I own/operate both MOTU and the Firebox.
while neither are anywhere near Grace quality in their preamps, the Motu (828, 828mkii and 896HD) pres are better than the Firebox.

the only pro I would give the Firbox relative to the Motu is the size/footprint.
many apps I have tried do not like the Firebox s/pdif input as the control utility has issues(locking up when switching between internal and external sync sources), and the mixer utility is almost useless. you have NO control over the line inputs other than a single checkbox to add 12db gain...this means you are reliant on the source to send good levels.

every time I have used the Firebox pres I have had issues...a weird staticy sound in the background. this is running either ac adapter or bus power.


with Motu, i have never had any problems with any function. granted, i rarely use the builtin pres, but its nice to know they are there and work for when I do need them.

[easy jim]

FWIW, I have been very happy with the sound of the MOTU stock pre-amps with my AKGs.  Now it may be that the generally brighter sounding AKGs match well with the MOTU pres, which to my ears have a nice low-end response although less detailed with the transients. 

I'm still planning to do the BlackLion upgrade when I can afford it.

---
One annoying thing I've noticed with the UltraLite is that my M1 will not take the s/pdif coax feed. My PCM-500 Rack DAT and my Tascam CD-RW750 will both accept the digital feed, but for some weird reason the M1 shows "COPY PROHIBIT" in the display and I either have to bring my rack or use 1/4"-RCA cables + RCA couplers + RCA-1/8" mini cables to run a backup copy to something other than my harddrive.  I'm guessing it is because Sony lowered the voltage over the s/pdif connection on the M1/D100 series and it is not recognizing the signal correctly, but have not had a chance to test with a D-7 or D-8.  Ironically, my M1 worked with the coax out from a full Sized Traveler when I took a patch at a show some months ago.

Anybody have any insight or experience a similar issue with other MOTU gear?

[taper420]

So I've been listening some more and I would say there is a more blocky digital feel to the ultralites preamp vs the mixpads. The mixpad is on the warmer (possibly muddy) side while the ultralite is brighter with more drive and harshness which might be helpful in certain situations. When switching from the mp to the ut the initial reaction is that it's clearer, but after a second an artificial feeling sets in. The only way i can describe it is boxy, perhaps this is the haze that others have mentioned. It's almost like you can hear and are aware of every sample, like with bad progressive video where your aware of each frame. The mixpad adds a nice analog feel that smooths out the boxyness. I'd say they both have there applications, I find myself liking the motu on some parts over the samson, but for the most part and for general purpose live taping I'm still sticking with the mixpad

But like I said this is just prelim testing from a boom box with a mic in front..... I'm gonna test it on instruments next.

[poorlyconditioned]

So I've been listening some more and I would say there is a more blocky digital feel to the ultralites preamp vs the mixpads. The mixpad is on the warmer (possibly muddy) side while the ultralite is brighter with more drive and harshness which might be helpful in certain situations. When switching from the mp to the ut the initial reaction is that it's clearer, but after a second an artificial feeling sets in. The only way i can describe it is boxy, perhaps this is the haze that others have mentioned. It's almost like you can hear and are aware of every sample, like with bad progressive video where your aware of each frame. The mixpad adds a nice analog feel that smooths out the boxyness. I'd say they both have there applications, I find myself liking the motu on some parts over the samson, but for the most part and for general purpose live taping I'm still sticking with the mixpad

But like I said this is just prelim testing from a boom box with a mic in front..... I'm gonna test it on instruments next.

Thanks for the update.  Keep up posted +T

  Richard

[easy jim]

So I've been listening some more and I would say there is a more blocky digital feel to the ultralites preamp vs the mixpads. The mixpad is on the warmer (possibly muddy) side while the ultralite is brighter with more drive and harshness which might be helpful in certain situations. When switching from the mp to the ut the initial reaction is that it's clearer, but after a second an artificial feeling sets in. The only way i can describe it is boxy, perhaps this is the haze that others have mentioned. It's almost like you can hear and are aware of every sample, like with bad progressive video where your aware of each frame. The mixpad adds a nice analog feel that smooths out the boxyness. I'd say they both have there applications, I find myself liking the motu on some parts over the samson, but for the most part and for general purpose live taping I'm still sticking with the mixpad

But like I said this is just prelim testing from a boom box with a mic in front..... I'm gonna test it on instruments next.

I wonder if the "boxy" feeling you are describing has more to do with the A->D conversion and the clock in the UltraLite vs. the mic pres.  I have not noticed it yet, but have also been unable to use the UltraLite at 24 bit with my G3 iBook.  I know that BlackLion also replaces the clock in the MOTUs as part of their mod./upgrade, and cannnot help but intuit that the "boxy" "artificial" feeling you are noticing may have more to do with jitter or clocking inaccuracy on the stock Texas Instruments clock (and that the issue may be amplified by the mics you're using if you are using the sennheisers as your test mics). 

As a way to isolate the issue, maybe try using an analog out from both devices (use a CueMix bus send for a direct analog signal path to one of the output groups), and then capture with the same A->D device (even if that is just you mini-disc recorder).  I would also not use the sennheisers to test b/c they are not very flat in the first place and tend to sound tinny to my ears.  Use your MXL large diaprhagm cardioid and record a mono track through both pres taking an analog output from both to some external A->D/recorder.

I've been a little concerned about the clock from what I've read and have been considering the BlackLion mod. as much for the clock upgrade as for the mic pre upgrade, so I'm really curious as to your take and feedback.

[taper420]

I'm aware of the clocking issue but I don't think it matters under this test because both signals are going through the MOTU's ADC so they would both be equally effected by the jitter, no? The only difference is one is mic level xlr and the other is line level trs, hence the only difference is the preamp. But I'm willing to admit I could be wrong on this... is there something I'm overlooking? I wouldnt be too hard to set up the test as suggested with the md recorder

also I was wondering about a temporary fix for the clocking issue... the computer offers multiple sources for clocking.... I can use the motu's, I can use an external spdif, i can use the computers internal, i can use a virtual soundcard called soundflower's, and i can sync it with and use the clock of any other external audio box. So there's ways around using the internal clock....let's say you plug a v3 into the spdif, then your motu is slaved to it's clock...........
so what i'm wondering, for now, with what i have available, what's my best choice for clock right now?

[easy jim]

I'm aware of the clocking issue but I don't think it matters under this test because both signals are going through the MOTU's ADC so they would both be equally effected by the jitter, no? The only difference is one is mic level xlr and the other is line level trs, hence the only difference is the preamp. But I'm willing to admit I could be wrong on this... is there something I'm overlooking? I wouldnt be too hard to set up the test as suggested with the md recorder

also I was wondering about a temporary fix for the clocking issue... the computer offers multiple sources for clocking.... I can use the motu's, I can use an external spdif, i can use the computers internal, i can use a virtual soundcard called soundflower's, and i can sync it with and use the clock of any other external audio box. So there's ways around using the internal clock....let's say you plug a v3 into the spdif, then your motu is slaved to it's clock...........
so what i'm wondering, for now, with what i have available, what's my best choice for clock right now?

I think you're right about testing the mics pres if they are both feeding through the MOTU.  I guess I was suggesting a different test for trying to see if the clock in the MOTU is 'that bad' and to isolate whether some of the negative sonic characteristics you're describing are due to the MOTU's clock, or the mic pres, or some conbination of both.  Maybe the results from both tests would be helpful for us in evaluating the new boxes.  I wish I could do the 'clock' copmparison test with my busted UA-5, as well as the mic pre test you suggested, but I have not sent it in yet.  I would be anxious to hear the results if you try to isolate whether the clock is an audible issue in comparison to your earlier test.

I agree in part

Now as for the future... when I can afford the black lion upgrade I most deffinetly want to get it, but heres the conundrum....

$500 ultralite base + $355 upgrade= $855 with two great preamps in a great peice of gear
$800 traveler base + $365 upgrade = $1,165 with FOUR great preamps in an AMAZING piece of gear

The $300 more for the traveler doesnt seem like that big of a deal anymore.

but I like the really small, light size of the UltraLite vs. the full size Traveler.  Down the road when I can afford it, I may also get a fullsized Traveler (or an 828mkII/896), but it will be to mount in my road case for daisy-chaining with the UltraLite to add more channels.

[ShawnF]

At the risk of further broadening this thread, how would the Ultralite (or the Traveler) with the Black Lion mods compare to the T+ mod UA5?  I very much like the idea being able to do a matrix with clear levels on all the sources, and in the case of the Traveler, at least, having the option of running more than 2 mics.

And, I get the impression that the S/PDIF in is usuable simultaneously with the mic or analog inputs.  So, if that's true, does that incoming digital signal get altered to allow it to be mixed with the analog-sourced inputs, or are the analog signals converted to the digital realm first, and then the mixing takes place?  I feel like that should be obvious to me, but I'm not certain how this works.  Basically, if I got the Ultralite and kept my UA-5, could I feed the Ultralite the digital output of the UA-5 and mix it with mics-in on the Ultralite, and if so, would I lose any of the quality of the UA-5 signal by doing so?

[easy jim]

At the risk of further broadening this thread, how would the Ultralite (or the Traveler) with the Black Lion mods compare to the T+ mod UA5?  I very much like the idea being able to do a matrix with clear levels on all the sources, and in the case of the Traveler, at least, having the option of running more than 2 mics.

And, I get the impression that the S/PDIF in is usuable simultaneously with the mic or analog inputs.  So, if that's true, does that incoming digital signal get altered to allow it to be mixed with the analog-sourced inputs, or are the analog signals converted to the digital realm first, and then the mixing takes place?  I feel like that should be obvious to me, but I'm not certain how this works.  Basically, if I got the Ultralite and kept my UA-5, could I feed the Ultralite the digital output of the UA-5 and mix it with mics-in on the Ultralite, and if so, would I lose any of the quality of the UA-5 signal by doing so?

Although I have not been able to try it yet, you can run the s/pdif in simultaneously to the other 8 analog inputs; however, I believe you must then slave the MOTU to the clock of the s/pdif input device.  All mixing is in the digital realm.

[taper420]

I can't comment on anything to do with the black lion upgrades (except that I've heard them, and yes they're better sounding) or the ua5, mod or no. If anyone wants to chime in I'll be happy to change the topic yet again.

As for the s/pidf.... I have not tested it, but it is my understanding that you can indeed run it along side the analogs for a full ten channels. As far as how it operates, the MOTU clock (which is crappy anyway) will shut off and the device will slave to the clock of the device feeding it the s/pidf. So for each digital sample it receives, it will sync a digital sample (from the analogs) with it, based on the clocking of the ua5. It's theoretical  that you could be degrading your MOTU's signal through the AD conversion by syncing with a crappier clock, but since the MOTU already has a crappy clock, bet is it'll be improving your signal.

Normaly you have the choice of what clock to use for the MOTU; it can be computers built in, a virtual soundcard, or any external audio device including itself, but when you're running s/pdif in, you have to slave to that device in order to eliminate drift.
Hope that answers some questions

[taper420]

beat me to it jim...... +t in mind

edit: actually.... +t for real all around.... looks like i just earned my wings!!!

(i though i needed 50 tickets, not 50 posts)

[taper420]

in case anybody was wondering about powering the ultralite:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=64422.0

[ShawnF]

Thanks for the answers and +T to you both.

[THE NIZ BIAAAAACH!]

Just for the record I run the fire box, couldn't be happier.  I have never had any issues with static or lock up on my lappy, I noticed that this was in reference to spidif in.  The spidif in is not really what this box was made fo,r if you are runnin fire wire in there are no issues.  Also I have run grace, appogee, aeta, eaa preamps, and much prefer this to all of them.  The low end of the fire box is the most well defined punchy lows I have ever gotton from a pre.  The highs ring nicely, and do not hiss and IMHO there is a little emphsasis around the mids which tends to make guitar come in a bit more foward, which I reguard as a plus for most of the live stuff I record.  And for $300 sounding nice out of the box, you can buy two of them and run them in tandem With no upgrades, and still have more tracks for less money 

[taper420]

So I've continued my research into the field and while I was happier with the preamps in the mixpad, over the MOTU at my house under controlled conditions, I think I'm happier with the MOTU's in the field. The warmer feeling I liked at home, turned into mud when recording a live band. So, maybe it's just because I have the traveler now, and bringing the extra samson mixer would be too much (i run three channels so up until the traveler i HAD to bring the samson mixer). So perhaps the convienience  (sp) factor is effecting my decision. But the MOTU's preamps sound crisper and clearer than the samson's now. I'm signing up for the black lion upgrades so this is gonna be a mute point for myself in a couple months.

[mmmatt]

has anyone gotten the black lion mod done on their Ultralight yet?  Thoughts?

Matt

[ShawnF]

I had the analog stage mods done, but am holding off on the clock upgrade, as I need to be able to slave it to my UA5 to run a 4-mic mix, which is why I bought it in the first place, and the clock upgrade would not allow that.  But I'm thinking of getting rid of the UA5 and getting a DAV BG-1 or a Sax.  If I do that, I'd get the clock upgrade done, also, since it would be an analog input instead of a digital input, and I'd actually be using the internal clock.

I didn't run the Ultralite much before the upgrade, and I'm mostly running it now in combination with the UA5, so I'm probably not the best person to speak about the improvement.  But, in the little testing I did with this unit alone before and after the upgrade, I think it was worthwhile to have it done.  I should do more listening to try to describe specifics, but my first impression was smoother highs, better soundstage, and maybe slightly tighter bass but I wasn't listening to the best source material to judge the lower frequencies.  I know the prices just went up on the mods, unfortunately--I got mine done just under the wire.

[mmmatt]

I was quoted 295 analog and 395 w/ clock.  I didn't see the prices posted.  What did you pay?

Matt

[ShawnF]

You're not going to be happy, I think.  I paid $205 for the analog stage plus return shipping.  Pretty big jump.  They had told me previously that since it was basically an 828mkII in a half rack case, the price would be the same as an 828mkII, and the prices no their site now for that unit match what they told you.

[mmmatt]

You're not going to be happy, I think.  I paid $205 for the analog stage plus return shipping.  Pretty big jump.  They had told me previously that since it was basically an 828mkII in a half rack case, the price would be the same as an 828mkII, and the prices no their site now for that unit match what they told you.

Thats cool... I'll try to negotiate.  Maybe they will move for me.  Thanks for the info and +T

Matt