Topic: Preamp quality: MOTU Ultralite vs. Samson Mixpad (vs. Presonus Firebox)

[easy jim]

FWIW, I have been very happy with the sound of the MOTU stock pre-amps with my AKGs.  Now it may be that the generally brighter sounding AKGs match well with the MOTU pres, which to my ears have a nice low-end response although less detailed with the transients. 

I'm still planning to do the BlackLion upgrade when I can afford it.

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One annoying thing I've noticed with the UltraLite is that my M1 will not take the s/pdif coax feed. My PCM-500 Rack DAT and my Tascam CD-RW750 will both accept the digital feed, but for some weird reason the M1 shows "COPY PROHIBIT" in the display and I either have to bring my rack or use 1/4"-RCA cables + RCA couplers + RCA-1/8" mini cables to run a backup copy to something other than my harddrive.  I'm guessing it is because Sony lowered the voltage over the s/pdif connection on the M1/D100 series and it is not recognizing the signal correctly, but have not had a chance to test with a D-7 or D-8.  Ironically, my M1 worked with the coax out from a full Sized Traveler when I took a patch at a show some months ago.

Anybody have any insight or experience a similar issue with other MOTU gear?

[taper420]

So I've been listening some more and I would say there is a more blocky digital feel to the ultralites preamp vs the mixpads. The mixpad is on the warmer (possibly muddy) side while the ultralite is brighter with more drive and harshness which might be helpful in certain situations. When switching from the mp to the ut the initial reaction is that it's clearer, but after a second an artificial feeling sets in. The only way i can describe it is boxy, perhaps this is the haze that others have mentioned. It's almost like you can hear and are aware of every sample, like with bad progressive video where your aware of each frame. The mixpad adds a nice analog feel that smooths out the boxyness. I'd say they both have there applications, I find myself liking the motu on some parts over the samson, but for the most part and for general purpose live taping I'm still sticking with the mixpad

But like I said this is just prelim testing from a boom box with a mic in front..... I'm gonna test it on instruments next.

[poorlyconditioned]

So I've been listening some more and I would say there is a more blocky digital feel to the ultralites preamp vs the mixpads. The mixpad is on the warmer (possibly muddy) side while the ultralite is brighter with more drive and harshness which might be helpful in certain situations. When switching from the mp to the ut the initial reaction is that it's clearer, but after a second an artificial feeling sets in. The only way i can describe it is boxy, perhaps this is the haze that others have mentioned. It's almost like you can hear and are aware of every sample, like with bad progressive video where your aware of each frame. The mixpad adds a nice analog feel that smooths out the boxyness. I'd say they both have there applications, I find myself liking the motu on some parts over the samson, but for the most part and for general purpose live taping I'm still sticking with the mixpad

But like I said this is just prelim testing from a boom box with a mic in front..... I'm gonna test it on instruments next.

Thanks for the update.  Keep up posted +T

  Richard

[easy jim]

So I've been listening some more and I would say there is a more blocky digital feel to the ultralites preamp vs the mixpads. The mixpad is on the warmer (possibly muddy) side while the ultralite is brighter with more drive and harshness which might be helpful in certain situations. When switching from the mp to the ut the initial reaction is that it's clearer, but after a second an artificial feeling sets in. The only way i can describe it is boxy, perhaps this is the haze that others have mentioned. It's almost like you can hear and are aware of every sample, like with bad progressive video where your aware of each frame. The mixpad adds a nice analog feel that smooths out the boxyness. I'd say they both have there applications, I find myself liking the motu on some parts over the samson, but for the most part and for general purpose live taping I'm still sticking with the mixpad

But like I said this is just prelim testing from a boom box with a mic in front..... I'm gonna test it on instruments next.

I wonder if the "boxy" feeling you are describing has more to do with the A->D conversion and the clock in the UltraLite vs. the mic pres.  I have not noticed it yet, but have also been unable to use the UltraLite at 24 bit with my G3 iBook.  I know that BlackLion also replaces the clock in the MOTUs as part of their mod./upgrade, and cannnot help but intuit that the "boxy" "artificial" feeling you are noticing may have more to do with jitter or clocking inaccuracy on the stock Texas Instruments clock (and that the issue may be amplified by the mics you're using if you are using the sennheisers as your test mics). 

As a way to isolate the issue, maybe try using an analog out from both devices (use a CueMix bus send for a direct analog signal path to one of the output groups), and then capture with the same A->D device (even if that is just you mini-disc recorder).  I would also not use the sennheisers to test b/c they are not very flat in the first place and tend to sound tinny to my ears.  Use your MXL large diaprhagm cardioid and record a mono track through both pres taking an analog output from both to some external A->D/recorder.

I've been a little concerned about the clock from what I've read and have been considering the BlackLion mod. as much for the clock upgrade as for the mic pre upgrade, so I'm really curious as to your take and feedback.

[taper420]

I'm aware of the clocking issue but I don't think it matters under this test because both signals are going through the MOTU's ADC so they would both be equally effected by the jitter, no? The only difference is one is mic level xlr and the other is line level trs, hence the only difference is the preamp. But I'm willing to admit I could be wrong on this... is there something I'm overlooking? I wouldnt be too hard to set up the test as suggested with the md recorder

also I was wondering about a temporary fix for the clocking issue... the computer offers multiple sources for clocking.... I can use the motu's, I can use an external spdif, i can use the computers internal, i can use a virtual soundcard called soundflower's, and i can sync it with and use the clock of any other external audio box. So there's ways around using the internal clock....let's say you plug a v3 into the spdif, then your motu is slaved to it's clock...........
so what i'm wondering, for now, with what i have available, what's my best choice for clock right now?

[easy jim]

I'm aware of the clocking issue but I don't think it matters under this test because both signals are going through the MOTU's ADC so they would both be equally effected by the jitter, no? The only difference is one is mic level xlr and the other is line level trs, hence the only difference is the preamp. But I'm willing to admit I could be wrong on this... is there something I'm overlooking? I wouldnt be too hard to set up the test as suggested with the md recorder

also I was wondering about a temporary fix for the clocking issue... the computer offers multiple sources for clocking.... I can use the motu's, I can use an external spdif, i can use the computers internal, i can use a virtual soundcard called soundflower's, and i can sync it with and use the clock of any other external audio box. So there's ways around using the internal clock....let's say you plug a v3 into the spdif, then your motu is slaved to it's clock...........
so what i'm wondering, for now, with what i have available, what's my best choice for clock right now?

I think you're right about testing the mics pres if they are both feeding through the MOTU.  I guess I was suggesting a different test for trying to see if the clock in the MOTU is 'that bad' and to isolate whether some of the negative sonic characteristics you're describing are due to the MOTU's clock, or the mic pres, or some conbination of both.  Maybe the results from both tests would be helpful for us in evaluating the new boxes.  I wish I could do the 'clock' copmparison test with my busted UA-5, as well as the mic pre test you suggested, but I have not sent it in yet.  I would be anxious to hear the results if you try to isolate whether the clock is an audible issue in comparison to your earlier test.

I agree in part

Now as for the future... when I can afford the black lion upgrade I most deffinetly want to get it, but heres the conundrum....

$500 ultralite base + $355 upgrade= $855 with two great preamps in a great peice of gear
$800 traveler base + $365 upgrade = $1,165 with FOUR great preamps in an AMAZING piece of gear

The $300 more for the traveler doesnt seem like that big of a deal anymore.

but I like the really small, light size of the UltraLite vs. the full size Traveler.  Down the road when I can afford it, I may also get a fullsized Traveler (or an 828mkII/896), but it will be to mount in my road case for daisy-chaining with the UltraLite to add more channels.

[ShawnF]

At the risk of further broadening this thread, how would the Ultralite (or the Traveler) with the Black Lion mods compare to the T+ mod UA5?  I very much like the idea being able to do a matrix with clear levels on all the sources, and in the case of the Traveler, at least, having the option of running more than 2 mics.

And, I get the impression that the S/PDIF in is usuable simultaneously with the mic or analog inputs.  So, if that's true, does that incoming digital signal get altered to allow it to be mixed with the analog-sourced inputs, or are the analog signals converted to the digital realm first, and then the mixing takes place?  I feel like that should be obvious to me, but I'm not certain how this works.  Basically, if I got the Ultralite and kept my UA-5, could I feed the Ultralite the digital output of the UA-5 and mix it with mics-in on the Ultralite, and if so, would I lose any of the quality of the UA-5 signal by doing so?

[easy jim]

At the risk of further broadening this thread, how would the Ultralite (or the Traveler) with the Black Lion mods compare to the T+ mod UA5?  I very much like the idea being able to do a matrix with clear levels on all the sources, and in the case of the Traveler, at least, having the option of running more than 2 mics.

And, I get the impression that the S/PDIF in is usuable simultaneously with the mic or analog inputs.  So, if that's true, does that incoming digital signal get altered to allow it to be mixed with the analog-sourced inputs, or are the analog signals converted to the digital realm first, and then the mixing takes place?  I feel like that should be obvious to me, but I'm not certain how this works.  Basically, if I got the Ultralite and kept my UA-5, could I feed the Ultralite the digital output of the UA-5 and mix it with mics-in on the Ultralite, and if so, would I lose any of the quality of the UA-5 signal by doing so?

Although I have not been able to try it yet, you can run the s/pdif in simultaneously to the other 8 analog inputs; however, I believe you must then slave the MOTU to the clock of the s/pdif input device.  All mixing is in the digital realm.

[taper420]

I can't comment on anything to do with the black lion upgrades (except that I've heard them, and yes they're better sounding) or the ua5, mod or no. If anyone wants to chime in I'll be happy to change the topic yet again.

As for the s/pidf.... I have not tested it, but it is my understanding that you can indeed run it along side the analogs for a full ten channels. As far as how it operates, the MOTU clock (which is crappy anyway) will shut off and the device will slave to the clock of the device feeding it the s/pidf. So for each digital sample it receives, it will sync a digital sample (from the analogs) with it, based on the clocking of the ua5. It's theoretical  that you could be degrading your MOTU's signal through the AD conversion by syncing with a crappier clock, but since the MOTU already has a crappy clock, bet is it'll be improving your signal.

Normaly you have the choice of what clock to use for the MOTU; it can be computers built in, a virtual soundcard, or any external audio device including itself, but when you're running s/pdif in, you have to slave to that device in order to eliminate drift.
Hope that answers some questions

[taper420]

beat me to it jim...... +t in mind

edit: actually.... +t for real all around.... looks like i just earned my wings!!!

(i though i needed 50 tickets, not 50 posts)

[taper420]

in case anybody was wondering about powering the ultralite:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=64422.0

[ShawnF]

Thanks for the answers and +T to you both.

[THE NIZ BIAAAAACH!]

Just for the record I run the fire box, couldn't be happier.  I have never had any issues with static or lock up on my lappy, I noticed that this was in reference to spidif in.  The spidif in is not really what this box was made fo,r if you are runnin fire wire in there are no issues.  Also I have run grace, appogee, aeta, eaa preamps, and much prefer this to all of them.  The low end of the fire box is the most well defined punchy lows I have ever gotton from a pre.  The highs ring nicely, and do not hiss and IMHO there is a little emphsasis around the mids which tends to make guitar come in a bit more foward, which I reguard as a plus for most of the live stuff I record.  And for $300 sounding nice out of the box, you can buy two of them and run them in tandem With no upgrades, and still have more tracks for less money 

[taper420]

So I've continued my research into the field and while I was happier with the preamps in the mixpad, over the MOTU at my house under controlled conditions, I think I'm happier with the MOTU's in the field. The warmer feeling I liked at home, turned into mud when recording a live band. So, maybe it's just because I have the traveler now, and bringing the extra samson mixer would be too much (i run three channels so up until the traveler i HAD to bring the samson mixer). So perhaps the convienience  (sp) factor is effecting my decision. But the MOTU's preamps sound crisper and clearer than the samson's now. I'm signing up for the black lion upgrades so this is gonna be a mute point for myself in a couple months.

[mmmatt]

has anyone gotten the black lion mod done on their Ultralight yet?  Thoughts?

Matt