Topic: Let's build a pre-amp!

[poorlyconditioned]

well Chris..i am not going to spend time here debating the quality of the transformers, but i stand behind my findings 

I think we have to consider at least three different things when evaluating gear:
- experience in the field (including listening to others' recordings)
- audio theory/specs
- extensive testing to make sure things actually work according to specs!

It is too easy to get buried in one or other of these and forget the others.  For example, a lot of people are recording directly into line in on the NJB3 or iRiver without testing extensively (or comparing to other options that may have less distortion).  Similarly, some people (myself included!) have done mods (eg., UA5) thinking they sound OK, only to discover that the waveforms are waaay out wack.

Really, there is no point in paying a lot of money (like we all do) and not getting the most out of our gear

On this topic, I'm looking forward to hearing how the R09 works in the field.  Hopefully someone will test it soon...

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

I know all about the different quality transformers I use them all the time. I am not argueing that good transformers sound better. What I am saying is that there is no way in hell a transformer can change the accoustics of a room. PERIOD maybe you should say that it creates a warm sound or maybe say it changes the orginal sound but it does not change accoustics. I am not trying to argue I just wanted to point out that there is no way for a transformer to change accoustics in a room. Or make a live recording sound more direct. Unless we are talking about frequencey response then I can say yes some change sound more then others but never accoustics.
Please do not take offence.


Chris Church

well Chris..i am not going to spend time here debating the quality of the transformers, but i stand behind my findings 

[bluegrass_brad]

Please do not take offence.


Chris Church

Maybe if you would word your replies to posts that are dissenting of your opinions with a little more civility no one would take offense.  Anytime anyone challanges your opinion your replies come across like your all bent out of shape and are very condescending. 

Is that a joke? Your actually going to tell me that a transformer some how magically changes the acoustics of the room? WOW where can I get these magic transformers :_)

[Church-Audio]

 I am sorry when I hear a statement like the one I responded to well, I really did think it was a joke.
I guess he was serious wow what can I say. Except how can anyone say a transformer changes acoustics? Please show me the AES paper on acoustics and transformers. I would love to read it. I am just as entitled to my opinion as anyone here. I was not calling him an idiot or a moron I just disagree. I wish that some of the people around here that disagree with me would do so in a more civil way but that does not happen very often so I guess I have adapted the T.S way of responding to things I do not agree with. I don’t think to many people can argue if you say the wrong thing people tend to jump on you around here I was just making a statement I did not make it personal there for I do not think I did anything wrong. This is still a free country right?
Chris Church

Please do not take offence.


Chris Church

Maybe if you would word your replies to posts that are dissenting of your opinions with a little more civility no one would take offense.  Anytime anyone challanges your opinion your replies come across like your all bent out of shape and are very condescending. 

Is that a joke? Your actually going to tell me that a transformer some how magically changes the acoustics of the room? WOW where can I get these magic transformers :_)

[it-goes-to-eleven]

How hard can it be to copy the Portico?

[Chuck]

This is still a free country right?

Chris Church

Well, the US is anyway... 

[bluegrass_brad]

I wish that some of the people around here that disagree with me would do so in a more civil way but that does not happen very often so I guess I have adapted the T.S way of responding to things I do not agree with.

Maybe because you always get bent when someone disagrees with you and then get all whiney and condescending.  You do make it personal when you make comments like "wow show me these magic transformers!". That statement in my opinion is implying that MUJ is a dumbass for thinking something different than you.  I also never saw him mention the word "acoustics" at any time.

[muj]

I am sorry when I hear a statement like the one I responded to well, I really did think it was a joke.
I guess he was serious wow what can I say. Except how can anyone say a transformer changes acoustics? Please show me the AES paper on acoustics and transformers. I would love to read it. I am just as entitled to my opinion as anyone here. I was not calling him an idiot or a moron I just disagree. I wish that some of the people around here that disagree with me would do so in a more civil way but that does not happen very often so I guess I have adapted the T.S way of responding to things I do not agree with. I don’t think to many people can argue if you say the wrong thing people tend to jump on you around here I was just making a statement I did not make it personal there for I do not think I did anything wrong. This is still a free country right?
Chris Church

Please do not take offence.


Chris Church

"Except how can anyone say a transformer changes acoustics?"


never said that. The thing is you interpreted what i wrote that way.  Now i could have modified my post and write a full page , explaining what i meant.  

but nah...

[Brian Skalinder]

I am sorry when I hear a statement like the one I responded to well, I really did think it was a joke.
I guess he was serious wow what can I say. Except how can anyone say a transformer changes acoustics?

FWIW, I've found you're pretty quick to get bent out of shape due to a simple misunderstanding, Chris.  I read Muj's statement...

TRANSFORMER  is important for me (re: PA taping), as it helps de-emphasize the room aspect in the recording, making a more focused recording.

...as suggesting that the sonic characteristics of the transformers help minimize, to his ears, the room ambience.  Maybe that means the highs and lows are rolled off, as you suggest, I don't know.  But regardless, it's quite clear to me that he's not suggesting the transformers actually impact the acoustics of the room itself, as you suggest.

Instead of drawing incorrect conclusions or making incorrect assumptions and (IMO) insulting people, maybe try asking questions to ensure you properly understand others' intent.

[muj]

ok...people ..i love y'all let's not turn into a drama...though i love it.


i said earlier that in my experience taping concerts , i have come to the conclusion that a high quality
transformer balanced mic pre-amp is more ideal than say a tranformerless ( higher speed and bandwidth) pre-amp.

In my experiences the end result using a transformer based pre versus a transformerless, is that the transformer balanced mic pre masks or de-emphasizes the room aspect in the recording/ tape. A transformerless pre-amp like the cranesong flamingo can add color by 2 switches and still retain the room aspect in the recording.

In my experience a transformer based pre-amp have more "focus" on the sound source
(again depends on what pre-amp is used)

As far as what i pre-amp i use or not use, there is nothing to brag about. or what kind of transformers i use.

 

[muj]

I am sorry when I hear a statement like the one I responded to well, I really did think it was a joke.
I guess he was serious wow what can I say. Except how can anyone say a transformer changes acoustics?

FWIW, I've found you're pretty quick to get bent out of shape due to a simple misunderstanding, Chris.  I read Muj's statement...

TRANSFORMER  is important for me (re: PA taping), as it helps de-emphasize the room aspect in the recording, making a more focused recording.

...as suggesting that the sonic characteristics of the transformers help minimize, to his ears, the room ambience.  Maybe that means the highs and lows are rolled off, as you suggest, I don't know.  But regardless, it's quite clear to me that he's not suggesting the transformers actually impact the acoustics of the room itself, as you suggest.

Instead of drawing incorrect conclusions or making incorrect assumptions and (IMO) insulting people, maybe try asking questions to ensure you properly understand others' intent.

thanks for that. you got it. And i apologize , I should have written more clearly what i meant. Still jet lagged from 14 hours of flying...

[Church-Audio]

Hey its all good I am sorry I did not mean to sound like a dick I was just poking some fun at the statement.

ps YOUR not the only one that says stupid shit after a long flight I am the master of saying stupid shit just read half of my posts lol

Anyways thats all I was saying about the transformer thing I love the sound of transformers my fav Neve preamps have transformers in them. I think that is why they sound as good as they do.

Again I am sorry for responding the way I did. I thought it was funny at the time but I guess its not. No one ever gets my dry sence of humor except me

Chris Church

I am sorry when I hear a statement like the one I responded to well, I really did think it was a joke.
I guess he was serious wow what can I say. Except how can anyone say a transformer changes acoustics?

FWIW, I've found you're pretty quick to get bent out of shape due to a simple misunderstanding, Chris.  I read Muj's statement...

TRANSFORMER  is important for me (re: PA taping), as it helps de-emphasize the room aspect in the recording, making a more focused recording.

...as suggesting that the sonic characteristics of the transformers help minimize, to his ears, the room ambience.  Maybe that means the highs and lows are rolled off, as you suggest, I don't know.  But regardless, it's quite clear to me that he's not suggesting the transformers actually impact the acoustics of the room itself, as you suggest.

Instead of drawing incorrect conclusions or making incorrect assumptions and (IMO) insulting people, maybe try asking questions to ensure you properly understand others' intent.

thanks for that. you got it. And i apologize , I should have written more clearly what i meant. Still jet lagged from 14 hours of flying...

[Javier Cinakowski]

Everyone sounds like an asshole from time to time.  What I like about Chris Church is he admits it.     Now that everyone has appologised please get back to work building the sickest preamp ever.  Thanks!!!     

[phanophish]

I think this thread might have been titled, Let's build a perfect religion.  We will never get everyone to agree on something so subjective, but that's what makes trying so much fun.........

[tubehead]

ouuuch! 'let's build a flame war'

back on the subject! here's the main parts of a mic preamp:

input/unbalancing section           can be transformer (easiest but costly) or solid state (be careful of CMRR)
gain stage                                opamp(DMIC, other mid-grade pres), instrumentation amp (V2), discrete(Oade pre, neves, millenia?!)
gain control                              can be part of amp stage, or pre- or post- attenuator, stepped or swept
metering                                  no meters, clip lite, analog vu, LED bar graph
headphone amp                        some do, some don't
power supply/batteries               runs off of either +6 or +12, so a switching converter is usually needed, sometimes 2 9v's are used for +/- rails
phantom supply                         a nicety, usually done with another DC-DC convterter, could be a source of noise if done wrong...
output line driver                       optional, the one in the V2 can drive 1000m of cable, but field tapers will never use that...

many, many ways to do all of the above...first thing is choose the topology of the preamp, what is going to be included.
from there there are lots of designs to start with, helpful app notes (jensen, burr brown, national etc.) that give design
suggestions, work with those, build a prototpye. sound test it, find areas of improvement (fix what's broken!)
spin. retest....find a box for it all...

dunno if any of you were on the diy-hdrec list, a similar group trying to make a hard drive based recorder....a few smart guys on there, but scope
creep killed it...i want this...i want that etc. the only way to get something realized is to limit the scope early, get something working then ADD things
to your WORKING prototype. start simple and embellish. or make a basic model that can be built up in different ways. this can be done as an amp core,
then couple it with your preferred method, power supply etc. maybe make a bunch of small boards that plug together or pin compatible?? maybe do a main
amp board for SS balancing, one main board for XF balancing, then make the power supply, metering, headphone amp and output boards plug into that?
kind of a modular approach...maybe even include space for a *GASP* digital board?