Topic: how are the van den hul's different than hosa's?

[intpseeker]

I've read about cables here and still don't understand what the difference is between my Hosa's and the van den Hul set in the Yardsale.

Any help would be appreciated

[Roving Sign]

Basically, Hosa is affordable junk...Van Den Hul is high-end stuff...opposite ends of the spectrum

your hosas are copper...The VanDen Huls are silver and carbon (I think)

[boojum]

I find the difference between mic placements far greater than the difference between mic cables.  Until you can get the mics in the right place every time it is a waste of money.  As usual, YMMV.   

[Busman Audio]

It is not a waste of money.
Good cables are worth your money.

The van den Hul cables in the yard sale are worth the money. I find it funny how a few years ago people would easily pay good money for a good set of cables and now not. The audio magic cables x-streams or hyperconductors aren't even as good as the van den Hul cables and yet people used to buy those without blinking for around 200 or more a set.

Check out the van den Hul website for more info http://www.vandenhul.com/

Hosas will work but they are not high quality.

[Tim]

I find the difference between mic placements far greater than the difference between mic cables.  Until you can get the mics in the right place every time it is a waste of money.  As usual, YMMV.   

mic placement is arguably more important than even the mics themselves

good cables are worth the money up to a point. A couple of hundred bucks for high-quality cables for a rig that costs a couple of thousand or more is a worthwhile investment imo

[Belexes]

If high quality cables are a waste, I just wasted $110 in the yard.

[boojum]

^^^^  Your words; your thoughts. 

I said that mic placement was arguably more important than the cables.  I have yet to hear a difference between cables while I can easily hear a difference between various mic placements.  And before you all tell me that your high-priced Centrifugal Bandersnatch cables sound better than anything, prove it with a few double-blind tests.  If I wanted, I could say that the cables I make myself sound better than anything I buy.  With enough ego I would believe it.  But that would not make it true.   

[ero3030]

had a thought on this topic,  but must pass ed

[stevetoney]

Some blind cable testing was done maybe 5 or 6 months ago...if you want the results, they exist in the TS.com archives.  As I recall, they were conclusive in favor of silver-clad cables.  

Having said this, I wonder if I can help the original poster by telling my own cable story.

I joined this list several years ago but didn't get active until a year ago.  One of my very first questions involved the issue of cables and frankly I just didn't believe that cables could make a difference.  I'm an engineer and a skeptic.

After getting lots of non-answers and HEATED arguments between knowledgeable and respected people on this list...I couldn't come to any conclusions from their input alone, so I ended up deciding that I had to do some testing of my own.  I bought about 4 sets of cables...from the $35 copper pair with StarQuad wire up to a $175 pair of AudioMagic Hyperconductors.

What I discovered FOR MYSELF was this...the silver clad cables have a more transparent sound to them in A vs. B tests and to my ears just deliver an overall better and more open sound than the cheap cables.  The sound difference between cables is not, nor would it ever be like 'WOW those sound GRRREAT'.  But it's more like, 'OK they sound a little better'.  Transparency is probably the most apt adjective that I'm able to think of right now.

For purposes in investing in audio gear, I have no problem with the logic that people are presenting when they say that there are more important variables in the equation for getting a good sounding recording that good cables.  Of course, everyone should logically know already that there are any number of variables that go into getting a good sounding pull.

Lots of people are saying mic placement is the most important.  No, I would counter that the soundboard engineers ability to mix a good sounding show is _THE_ most important factor.  

But that's not the point.  The question was not, 'what's the most important variable to getting a good recording'...the question was 'does a cable make a difference?'  

So, to answer directly the question, because of my own testing in which I indeed convinced myself (much to my surprise, I might add) that the cable quality makes some difference, I personally came to the conclusion that, since I was spending over $2000 in a quest to obtain equipment that delivers a good sound, it was a justifiable investment to also buy better quality cables.  

Keep in mind, you don't need to break the bank here.  Good quality silver clad cables are selling on the Yard Sale for $70 to $100.  In addition, from what I've heard, I'm sure the Van Den Huls are worth the price being asked.  For my own rig, that price is a no-brainer for the sake of getting a 'OK it sounds a little better' sounding rig since I'd already invested over $2K.

I'm not claiming that this is the final word and answer to this debate...all I'm saying is that this is the reasoning that went into my personal decision making.  

[boojum]

^^^^ Please show me the "blind cable testing" that proves silver clads to be conclusively better.  More transparent does not mean the same thing to all people so, hopefully, the tests were clearer than that.  Just an incidence of say 80% identifying silver clad as conclusively better in a double-blind test would be interesting.  I searched for "blind cable testing" and found nothing.  Please help me out here.

Thanks

[stevetoney]

^^^^ Please show me the "blind cable testing" that proves silver clads to be conclusively better.  More transparent does not mean the same thing to all people so, hopefully, the tests were clearer than that.  Just an incidence of say 80% identifying silver clad as conclusively better in a double-blind test would be interesting.  I searched for "blind cable testing" and found nothing.  Please help me out here.

Thanks

OK, I found the test and linked to it below...sorry it wasn't a totally blind test like I thought that I remembered.  Nashphil did the cable comp but he identified the cables ahead of time so that people knew which were the more expesive cables.  Not really an unbiased and blind comparison. 

However I'd like to point out once again your statement above implies that I stated that silver was better.  Really, it's a subjective thing.  I think what the better conclusion would be that more people preferred the sound of the silver clads in this test...that doesn't mean better, it only means more people preferred one over the other.  I haven't re-reviewed this thread, but I do seem to recall a couple people saying that one of the less expensive copper cables were their preference. 

Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81975.0.html

[stevetoney]

To add to the ambiguity of this discussion, I should point out that I recall when I was debating for myself the merits of the more expensive cables, most people called the silver cables BRIGHTER instead of the word that I used...more TRANSPARENT.  Honestly, I'm not sure which is a better adjective...so the best answer is to listen to the comps and reach your own conlclusions.

One other thing...it also should be understood that people with low end playback systems aren't gonna hear the same thing as someone with higher end playback gear. I recall lots of toe-to-toe arguments on this cable subject, and in the end it was concluded that alot of the arguing resulted because one person was using low quality equipment and couldn't hear much difference, while the person with a super duper high end rig was claiming the difference was night-and-day.  YMMV.

[boojum]

That the folks listening knew the cable they were listening to before they heard it makes the test all but meaningless.  What does it prove?  We just saw that more expensive wines taste better.  I would not be surprised if more expensive cables test better.  But prove it in a double-blind test.  Otherwise all you are getting is led impressions. 

Or, let's cut right to the chase: how many professionals do you know who are using van den Huls or other super high-end cables as opposed to standard Canare star quad.?  I work with a guy out here on the coast who just laughs at high-end cables.  He was a musician on the road for years and now sets up sound systems up and down the coast.  He does not recommend the high-end, but will install them if you want.

[ghellquist]

To me cables makes a difference. I have never heard any sound difference between decent cables.

What makes a difference to me is how well their physical properties work during a long usage time. Will the twist and snake or stay straight? Will they keep on working even under abuse? Will they leave dark smears? Are the cables large and stiff or small and flexible? Does the contacts lock and unlock positively without force? Does the cable stay in the connector even after a bit of abuse?

Or to put it simply, will they simply work or will they create problems.

I have found that for me Neutric connectors are what works. I get them gold-plated in black simply because it looks good, the silver plated are probably a bit more long-lived. I then use Gotham cables and solder myself.
http://www.gotham.ch/products_en/en.htm
Gunnar

[Nick's Picks]

back to the original question.

taking ones ears out of the equation, and just digging in the wire itself...and you'll find that it is constructed with amazing quality.
silver plated copper wire.  thicker gage, better insulation. 

does it sound better than cheap Hosa ?
that's your call.

[stevetoney]

That the folks listening knew the cable they were listening to before they heard it makes the test all but meaningless.  What does it prove? 

Right.  It doesn't prove much.  IMHO, even the methodology of a blind test will be shot to pieces after the fact by the people that are predisposed to believe one way or the other.

In the end, the result is always the same, there's no concensus on the subject and people that are new to the subject need to understand that there is a wide variety of different opinions that run the spectrum.

[intpseeker]

+ T's around for the explanations of the physical differences and the science behind why those differences would create different/better sound.

I realize that there are a multitude of variables involved in getting a great pull, but like anything in life, I can only control what i can control. I can't do anything about the acoustics of the venue, the proficiency of the sb tweaker, nor, sometimes, mic placement, but if spending a few bucks on cable 'might' make the recording better, I'm already in the hole for a fair amount.

The reality is that with the hearing loss that I seem to have, I probably might not hear the difference. My 'crappy' Hosa's sound ok to me, but who knows what someone with better hearing perceives when listening to one of my pulls.

[Tim]

^^^^  Your words; your thoughts. 

I said that mic placement was arguably more important than the cables.  I have yet to hear a difference between cables while I can easily hear a difference between various mic placements.

I don't doubt that you do. My point was that mic placement is more important than any other factor, including mics. That you can hear a difference in mic placement before you hear a difference between mic cables is not surprising.

And before you all tell me that your high-priced Centrifugal Bandersnatch cables sound better than anything, prove it with a few double-blind tests.  If I wanted, I could say that the cables I make myself sound better than anything I buy.  With enough ego I would believe it.  But that would not make it true.   

We've been down this road many times before and we'll just have to agree to disagree. I trust my ears, I've taped for over 12 years and also spent some time as a FOH engineer. I think my ears are above average but not great. I hear a difference in different types of cable. You do not. Perhaps your experience is different from mine, perhaps our ears are tuned differently.

I'm not talking about spending thousands of dollars on cables, I'm talking about spending a couple of hundred bucks - which, in this hobby, is a mere pittance.

[Tim]

In the end, the result is always the same, there's no concensus on the subject and people that are new to the subject need to understand that there is a wide variety of different opinions that run the spectrum.

Well said +T

[bgalizio]

And there are those of us who hear differences in silver vs copper cable and plain old prefer the copper. It's like the rest of the gear - it has to match with your mics.

[Tim]

And there are those of us who hear differences in silver vs copper cable and plain old prefer the copper. It's like the rest of the gear - it has to match with your mics.

yep!

[datbrad]

I think to get down to earth on this discussion we all really can agree that there is a low, middle, and high level with regards to cables, not just "cheap" and "high end". Also, there are differences between cables designed for careful use in controlled studio environments versus rough field or live stage use.

The most important break point between types of mic cables is the amount of RF resistance they have. Quad conductor cable, Canare and Ameriquad being two of the biggest selling brands, are not susceptible to RF interference like 2 conductor cable, and are therefore the preferred type for field or stage use. High end 2 conductor studio cable will out perform mid-level quad cable in the controlled studio environment where shielding against RF and 60 cycle AC fields are part of the facility construction. Take those high end cables out into the field, and any benefits from conductor formulation can be lost to RF interference.

Ameriquad cables, for example, have a Kevlar core to protect them from the strains of stage use, being coiled and recoiled daily, stepped on, pulled on, and swung around by the Roger Daltry's of the world. Many of the same types of rough handling seen with stage applications will apply to field recording.

For this reason, my advice is that while inexpensive Hosa type cables are usually going to deliver the classic "get what you pay for" lower performance, your next step does not have to leap frog to esoteric cables built by hand by Swiss watch makers using the purest metals extracted from rare meteorites with diamond encrusted locking switches. That would be like buying a Ferrari to drive back and forth to work simply for the bragging rights, as that would be all you would be gaining for the investment.

Look for good quad cables with gold Nutrix connectors in the $60-$80 per cable range and you will be just fine taping off PAs in the field.

[boojum]

From what I have read nickel plate is better.  The reason is that the gold plate is thin and will wear off quickly.  This leaves the easily corroded brass underneath.  Nickel plate is tough and even if you are young, the plate will probably outlast you.  Something to think about.  It makes a lot of sense to me.  I will not be buying any more gold plate Neutriks.

YMMV

[intpseeker]

...your next step does not have to leap frog to esoteric cables built by hand by Swiss watch makers using the purest metals extracted from rare meteorites with diamond encrusted locking switches.

Uhm...Does anyone on this board make these?

[Nick's Picks]

yea, I like nickel/silver plated better any ways.

[goodcooker]

I use all kinds of molded-end Hosa junk in my spare bedroom studio for patching and stuff. The only detractor is the cheap molded ends that can't be repaired. If it shorts you just toss it.

As for all that high end cable business.... I like silverclad.
I think its got a sound I like, represents the frequency range well with no bass build up that I find with quad conductor/copper. (and a 15 ft pair rolls up nice and tight and fits in a crown royal bag with a clamp ,a20 shock and kwon bar with room to spare)
I still use my Xstreams when on stage or somewhere they'll be getting walked on because they are tougher than my milspecs with techflex.

In the end physics don't lie.....silver is a better conductor than copper. About three times better if I remember correctly.

In the end you will find the happy medium between what you can afford and what sounds good to you.

Somebody want to jump in with the "skin effect" debate now?

[stevetoney]

One of the craziest/goofiest/funniest things about tapersection is how someone throws out that 'do cables make a difference' bone and this discussion gets resurrected.  It's clearly the one subject that there is no agreement on, yet there's a wide variety of fairly strong opinions.  It's kinda fun to watch the progression of comments.

[stevetoney]

Somebody want to jump in with the "skin effect" debate now?

What debate...when I see the right skin, the effect is that I get a woodie.

[boojum]

If the mics are all wired in copper it kind of makes this debate pointless. 

[Tim]

If the mics are all wired in copper it kind of makes this debate pointless. 

This does not follow. Better cables at the back end can ensure a more accurate capture of the mics output as well as a more accurate reproduction.

The fact that the source uses one type of wiring it does not negate the benefits of another type of wiring in the mic cables, interconnects or speaker cables.

[Busman Audio]

If the mics are all wired in copper it kind of makes this debate pointless. 

My microphones are not wired with pure copper. I use silver plated ofc copper wire so the silver cables and high end copper cables are not lost on busman microphones.

[willndmb]

all i know is that my star quads sounded fine, but my ears like the silver better
i don't want to say its a better sound, just different

now are my silverpath or dogstars for $80 better or worse then $200 audio magic???
lets just say i don't hear a difference to where i am going to go buy some $200 cables

in the end, like pretty much all taping gear - its what you like you should try and use

[Jim Jones]

Or, let's cut right to the chase: how many professionals do you know who are using van den Huls or other super high-end cables as opposed to standard Canare star quad.?  I work with a guy out here on the coast who just laughs at high-end cables. 

I've been told that Steve Kimock won't go on stage without his favorite guitar cable. Apparently to him, the right cable is crucial to his sound.

David Gilmour has a couple kilometers of van den Hul in his studio.

Micahel Jackson had a semi trailer full of Cardas wire for one of his last tours.

Manley used to sell their high end studio mics wired with van den Hul. They now use Transparent or MIT or something along those lines, but it is definietly not mil-spec, Canare, or Hosa. 

Bop Studios in South Africa wired their mixing boards with van den Hul, using Neve, SSL, and Focusrite.

Tannoy, makers of world famous studio monitors use van den Hul wire on the inside of their cabinets. 

 
Jim

[silentmark]

Talk to Jerry from Audio Magic and he'll tell you that he can hear when there is too much solder used in cables ...

[stevetoney]

all i know is that my star quads sounded fine, but my ears like the silver better
i don't want to say its a better sound, just different

now are my silverpath or dogstars for $80 better or worse then $200 audio magic???
lets just say i don't hear a difference to where i am going to go buy some $200 cables

in the end, like pretty much all taping gear - its what you like you should try and use

I hate 'me too' posts, but willndmb captured my sentiments on the nose.  What I suppose I wanted to add is that I was really a skeptic at first that I would hear a difference in the cable, although I also went into it with an open mind and then after listening, I decided that there was enough difference to me that I concluded that cables mattered to me for my rig. 

As far as the fact that someone uses a pro studio as a reference point as saying cables don't make a difference, well that's just further confirmation that there will probably never be universal agreement on this issue because as someone else mentioned, other pros obviously think cables are very important.

[manitouman]

Got my set of van den Hul's yesterday, opened them up and WOW they sure are purty 

Can't wait to take them on a run. Thanks Chris! Before anyone says anything about comparing costs and sounds and all that...this rig is my graduation present to myself. I finally get my Bachelor's degree in BA this Friday. It was either a Harley or a rig. I can't afford a Harley so I went with a good rig. Good components complementing each other. I may never have to change anything again....well except mics....somewhere down the road anyways.

[Ryan Sims]

I finally get my Bachelor's degree in BA this Friday.

Congrats!