Topic: Ethical question

[splumer]

Not really sure where to put this, but since it involves computer-based activities, I put it here. My question is, some shows I tape have long pauses between songs with nothing going on. DMB is one of the best/worst for this. Something 2 - 3 minutes between songs, to the point where I've edited some shows I've downloaded from 3 CD's to 2 just by cutting down on the pre-show waving to the crowd and cutting out the between song... well, nothing! OK, so college chicks yelling "Dave, I want to have your babies!"

So is this ethical? Do people frown on this? I mean, in a way, it destroys the integrity of the show, since it no longer accurately represents what actually happened. On the other hand, it makes the show a lot more listenable. One of my big complaints about DMB live is that the long pauses between songs kills the energy level. Cutting out the pauses (seamlessly, I might add) keeps the energy level and often reduces the number of discs needed for a show. Is that cool, or should I not do this?

Thanks!

[Patrick]

This goes against every law of archiving music, but I've been told before that music is "for listening and not for archiving," so it's really up to you.  I personally don't do it, but I've seen other people track their shows like this.

[greenone]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

[setboy]

I don't do it, but wouldn't care if someone did. Just as long as all of the music is there, i'm fine.

I some of the old dead tapes of had this happen to them and it really doesn't bug me that much.

[taperj]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

+1

I understand the getting it on 2 cd's instead of 3 thing but I think I would only do that for a cd to toss in the car or such and leave the whole show on harddrive or a separate cd set. Any 'archive' (cd or file based)should be the full monte in my opinion. I wouldn't distribute it without the crowd tracks.

[page]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

+1

I understand the getting it on 2 cd's instead of 3 thing but I think I would only do that for a cd to toss in the car or such and leave the whole show on harddrive or a separate cd set. Any 'archive' (cd or file based)should be the full monte in my opinion. I wouldn't distribute it without the crowd tracks.

The number of people who burn CDs anymore is paltry, but still out there. I track mine as separate tracks but it's all there.

[rastasean]

If it was that big of a gap with no playing, I think having it on a separate track is the way to do it. However if you don't keep it at all, I don't think anyone will find out or care. Do live recordings put out by bands have such long pauses in between songs? Probably not because the average listener wants music and doesn't want the roar of the crowd.

Let's ask another question for those that always (or almost always) keep the archiving perspective.
What would you REMOVE audio from the recording? How bad does it have to get before you remove something?

[rowjimmytour]

For DMB I would edit the crowd out and the music but for almost any one else I would just make the banter/crowd self track

[runonce]

I say do it...but be gentle...and make the cuts transparent.

I almost always do this for club bands...no sense in filling the archive up with hours of silence. And it cuts down on the number of time my girlfriend asks "what happened to the music?" or "is that over?" - when its just between songs.

For a big show, major band kind of deal, I would tend to leave them in - especially when there are multiple sources - but most of those kinds of bands have some production values and keep things moving...

Surely the Dead's collection suffers from this - being done on the fly no less...(guys pausing between songs) It makes some show's pacing sound un-natural.

[kirk97132]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

Which lead to an old on going discussion a friend and I have had.   He has 3 cd changers that hold 200 cd's each.  They are tied into a jukebox program he wrote that runs on the computer.  During parties the laptop sits out and people go in and select stuff.  Then the random play button is hit to mix things up.....NOW, with audience chatter as a track you get times when that is what is played.  So is it right or is it wrong?  Our conclusion posted way below




























We decided that it's a party and yes the between song banter etc gets tracked as long as it is over one minute in length.  Makes for some interesting listens while everyone is all partied up.....You might hear how a song is based on this book or whatever then the next thing you hear has nothing to do with the track of talking.   

[boojum]

Unless the in-between banter of the band is interesting I cut it.  The crowd is there as ears.  Most of what the crowd is hollering, well, is not very interesting.  All I want is the playing, intros and exits and the banter, if it is funny or interesting. 

[keytohwy]

I keep it in the interest of archiving the whole thing.  But I don't burn CDs, I just archive the FLACs.  I export into iTunes friendly format, sometimes AAC, sometimes ALAC.  Either way, you can go into iTunes and get info on the file.  For tracks that have just audience, like maybe between the last tune and the encore, you can check the box to skip when shuffling.  So if you are randomly listening to tunes, then these tracks will just get skipped.  Nice. 

If you choose to not to track out these gaps, you can still go into iTunes and check the box for start and stop time.  So, you'll get the whole song in iTunes and any burned CDs (but I'd recommend burning elsewhere), but the song will only play in the time boundaries you establish.  Again, great for cutting out the last 2 mins of a song when it really is just the encore cheering, etc.

Hope that helps.  Not sure if other apps offer these capabilities.  These preferences do move with the tunes to iPods so playback in the car, for instance, adheres to the same rules.

keytohwy

[setboy]

The way i see it is if you cut some stuff out for seeding/your own listing just be sure to make an archive copy of the whole thing.

[runonce]

The way i see it is if you cut some stuff out for seeding/your own listing just be sure to make an archive copy of the whole thing.

....this is a "situational ethic"...

Lets not all be blinded by the politics of grateful dead taping...

If nobody says a damn thing for three minutes and there's only 50 people there...CUT!!!

Odd, talky, artists like Jerry Joseph still demand the the respect of leaving it all in...

Dopey jambands changing a string...CUT!

[setboy]

The way i see it is if you cut some stuff out for seeding/your own listing just be sure to make an archive copy of the whole thing.

....this is a "situational ethic"...

Lets not all be blinded by the politics of grateful dead taping...

If nobody says a damn thing for three minutes and there's only 50 people there...CUT!!!

Odd, talky, artists like Jerry Joseph still demand the the respect of leaving it all in...

Dopey jambands changing a string...CUT!

 politics of grateful dead taping?  The tapes i have that have been cut up the most are grateful dead tapes and not just because people were pausing in between songs ......