Topic: Sonosax at no gain?

[Nick Graham]

Has anyone ever ran the SXM2 at the "No Gain" setting in front of another pre?

I'd like to try a few different preamps/ADs behind the Schoeps, but to be able to still use the KCY actives, I'm kinda tied to the Sax.

It would seem like setting it it to No Gain would basically make the Sonosax act as mic bodies, and not really alter the sound direct from the caps.

Am I completely offbase here?

[bhadella]

Has anyone ever ran the SXM2 at the "No Gain" setting in front of another pre?

I'd like to try a few different preamps/ADs behind the Schoeps, but to be able to still use the KCY actives, I'm kinda tied to the Sax.

It would seem like setting it it to No Gain would basically make the Sonosax act as mic bodies, and not really alter the sound direct from the caps.

Am I completely offbase here?

Skalinder has ran the Sax at zero gain infront of a V3 before.  He posted the tapes in the Kickdown area...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=40965.0

I think he found the sax to be noisier than using the CMC6 bodies.  I'm sure he would be able to elaborate on the sonic differences.....

[monochromic]

i've never run the sax in front of my v3 in the field before, however if you'd like i could set up a comparison this evening of;

mk4 / kcy > sonosax (0db gain) > v3 against;
mk4 / kc5 / cmc6xt > v3

just running in front of my playback system at home. let me know.

[Kyle]

i've never run the sax in front of my v3 in the field before, however if you'd like i could set up a comparison this evening of;

mk4 / kcy > sonosax (0db gain) > v3 against;
mk4 / kc5 / cmc6xt > v3

just running in front of my playback system at home. let me know.

I would really like to hear that....

I have been thinking about picking up a Sax to fool around with - I do not run a V3 (V2/AD2k) - but I would like to hear it - I have been curious about the noise levels of the Sax....

[monochromic]

I would really like to hear that....

done. will set it up tonight and post the results shortly thereafter, should be interesting.

edit: just thinking, would there be any problems using say a 2 min sample of a commercial recording for the comparison? if so, any suggestions of a recording to use?

[Kyle]

I would really like to hear that....

done. will set it up tonight and post the results shortly thereafter, should be interesting.

edit: just thinking, would there be any problems using say a 2 min sample of a commercial recording for the comparison? if so, any suggestions of a recording to use?

that's a good point...

maybe a recording of a freely traded band?

thanks for doing the comp!    +T

[monochromic]

ok, comparison recorded. pm me for details, i'll host it on my ftp unless demand creeps up. for the record the comparison was between;

schoeps mk4 / kcy > sonosax sx-m2/ls2 (0db gain) > lunatec v3 > d100 dat
schoeps mk4 / kc5 / cmc6xt > lunatec v3 > d100 dat

ran the mics in dina config, seague dogstar xlr's used in both cases. playback source was arcam cd23t / arcam a22 / b&w cdm1-nt.

[marc0789]

Has anyone ever ran the SXM2 at the "No Gain" setting in front of another pre?

I'd like to try a few different preamps/ADs behind the Schoeps, but to be able to still use the KCY actives, I'm kinda tied to the Sax.

It would seem like setting it it to No Gain would basically make the Sonosax act as mic bodies, and not really alter the sound direct from the caps.

Am I completely offbase here?

Skalinder has ran the Sax at zero gain infront of a V3 before.  He posted the tapes in the Kickdown area...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=40965.0

I think he found the sax to be noisier than using the CMC6 bodies.  I'm sure he would be able to elaborate on the sonic differences.....

and he had some issues with that combo. ask him. running the sx that low created some nasty digital hiss.

[monochromic]

and he had some issues with that combo. ask him. running the sx that low created some nasty digital hiss.

i found the exact same thing whilst running the comp last night. at first i thought it was caused by something in the lineage, but then i read your post. when the music is pumping it really isn't a problem, but when silent it's certainly noticeable.

kyle/nick, the flac files from last night's comp are ready to roll, if you still want to compare give me a yell and i'll send over the ftp details -- makes for interesting listening.

[Brian Skalinder]

and he had some issues with that combo. ask him. running the sx that low created some nasty digital hiss.

I don't know if it's an issue with running in 0dB mode specifically, or if the self-noise is always there when applying gain with the Sax.  I've not noticed the self-noise in running the Sax with gain, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

A good test would be to run the Sax at it's lowest gain setting(+20dB I think) into the V3 and see if the self-noise is still present.

• If not, then that leads me to believe they perhaps implemented the 0dB mode poorly - perhaps a noisy attenuator applied to the minimum 20dB gain that causes the noise. 
• If yes, then it's gotta be a function of the overall design, independent of whether running in 0, low, or high gain settings.

Unfortunately, I'm unable test further b/c my Lemosax is on the way out...I just don't stealth enough to warrant owning it (and it's spoken for).

[mmedley.]

I've run 4V > Sax (0db) > V3 > M1. Check out 5-16/17-03 of Panic at the Murat. One of my favorite tapes I've made. That is the only time I've ran than combo.

You can download them via FTP at http://www.grandpuba.org

Actually I think just one night is up there, but I can upload the other.

Edit:

Haven't run that combo with actives BTW.

[jbraveman]

I ran 4022 > Sax (0 db) > SBM (10) > M1 for ABB this summer.  The levels were otherwise too hot.  I did not hear any problems.  I would be interested to know if there is a potential problem and if this should be avoided.

[Brian Skalinder]

I would be interested to know if there is a potential problem and if this should be avoided.

I don't think there's a "problem" per se.  I suspect it's simply the bits inside the SX-M2/LS2 that replace the CMC6 bodies have more self-noise than the CMC6 bodies, and this becomes apparent when applying very high gain (for the Del show, I ran the V3 at +65dB!)  So any self noise inherent in the system before the V3 would surely get amplified to a more noticable level.  I've never noticed it on any other SX-M2/LS2 recordings.

[monochromic]

sounds right to me, when running the comparison (where i noticed the noise) i had the v3 gain set quite high -- at +50db. i too, had never noticed this on any of the recordings i made whilst running the sonosax solo.

[F.O.Bean]

i've never run the sax in front of my v3 in the field before, however if you'd like i could set up a comparison this evening of;

mk4 / kcy > sonosax (0db gain) > v3 against;
mk4 / kc5 / cmc6xt > v3

just running in front of my playback system at home. let me know.

I would really like to hear that....

I have been thinking about picking up a Sax to fool around with - I do not run a V3 (V2/AD2k) - but I would like to hear it - I have been curious about the noise levels of the Sax....

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax is the ONLY combo to run, except maybe schoeps>v3, YMMV

the schoeps>sax phish tapes are my favorite phish tapes ever, just in front of the schoeps t00bes>v3 sound!

[goose]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax is the ONLY combo to run, except maybe schoeps>v3, YMMV

the schoeps>sax phish tapes are my favorite phish tapes ever, just in front of the schoeps t00bes>v3 sound!

Bean, have you heard Schoeps -> m248?  Also sounds damn good!  If I bought schoeps, I'd be trying to find an m248 for sure.

[F.O.Bean]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax is the ONLY combo to run, except maybe schoeps>v3, YMMV

the schoeps>sax phish tapes are my favorite phish tapes ever, just in front of the schoeps t00bes>v3 sound!

Bean, have you heard Schoeps -> m248? Also sounds damn good! If I bought schoeps, I'd be trying to find an m248 for sure.

hmmm, i bet i do have a few tapes of those, but i always hated the MG>248 tapes, WAY too bright IMO

the schoeps>248 will have to be heard!

[mmedley.]

I totally forgot I also ran 4V > Sax (0) > mod SBM-1 (10) > M1 for Panic at the Fox in March of 05. VERY healthy sounding.

[Kyle]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax is the ONLY combo to run, except maybe schoeps>v3, YMMV

the schoeps>sax phish tapes are my favorite phish tapes ever, just in front of the schoeps t00bes>v3 sound!

Bean, have you heard Schoeps -> m248? Also sounds damn good! If I bought schoeps, I'd be trying to find an m248 for sure.

hmmm, i bet i do have a few tapes of those, but i always hated the MG>248 tapes, WAY too bright IMO

the schoeps>248 will have to be heard!

Bean,

I agree with the Schoeps/Sax combo - Craig Tarazki's (sp?)  Phish CMC641>SX-M2 recordings are excellent
I love my V2 but I have the urge to switch things up a bit...

I used to run (briefly) KM184>M248 but it was weird - if I was in the sweet spot the tapes were excellent, but if not the recording was too bright, fatiguing - I sold it and ended up with the V2

I wish I stlll had it though - would love to try it with the Schoeps

[F.O.Bean]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax>ad2k would be the ideal combo

[Kyle]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax>ad2k would be the ideal combo

I am thinking the same thing - gotta start saving

I would like to get the Lemosax - I wonder if they could make one with the 5pin Binder plug and 2 xlrs, instead of the two lemo's.
That would be ideal - an active setup for stealth/lowpro and xlrs for using the bodies in open taping enviroments.
Gotta save some $$

[Nick Graham]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax>ad2k would be the ideal combo

I am thinking the same thing - gotta start saving

I would like to get the Lemosax - I wonder if they could make one with the 5pin Binder plug and 2 xlrs, instead of the two lemo's.
That would be ideal - an active setup for stealth/lowpro and xlrs for using the bodies in open taping enviroments.
Gotta save some $$

I'm under the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that Sonosax can make them the SXM2 to whatever specifications you need within reason. Not sure what the cost would run, but it'd definitely be worth looking into.

[Kyle]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax>ad2k would be the ideal combo

I am thinking the same thing - gotta start saving

I would like to get the Lemosax - I wonder if they could make one with the 5pin Binder plug and 2 xlrs, instead of the two lemo's.
That would be ideal - an active setup for stealth/lowpro and xlrs for using the bodies in open taping enviroments.
Gotta save some $$

I'm under the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that Sonosax can make them the SXM2 to whatever specifications you need within reason. Not sure what the cost would run, but it'd definitely be worth looking into.

Good news, thanks

[Nick Graham]

kyle, IMO, schoeps>sax>ad2k would be the ideal combo

I've ran Schoeps>Sonosax>modSBM1 and found the sound to be a bit too dark, ditto with the couple of Schoeps>Sonosax>MME tapes I downloaded recently.

Any recommendations as far as tapes with an AD2K in the lineage? I'd like to find a good external A/D (so far just using the M1s has been my preference) to run, and the fact the AD2K can do 24 bit is even better.

[silentmark]

I've ran Schoeps>Sonosax>modSBM1 and found the sound to be a bit too dark,

Blasphemy !

 

[Kyle]

For standard concert recording, what gain setting do you Saxers use? I am guessing the lo setting....

[-sam]

I have it set to lo, but I do think I have to run the sax a little hotter going into the 722 than I did with the SBM-1, maybe because I kept the sbm cranked higher than the 722.

-sam

[K.C.]

lo - not sure i've ever needed to run it at hi. doesn't the hi setting start @ 40db gain? i normally don't run more than 30-35 db on the low setting anyway.

[brianp]

For standard concert recording, what gain setting do you Saxers use? I am guessing the lo setting....

lo gain, set the levels around 12:00 and adjust accordingly depending on your ad unit. for the sbm-1 i set the sax at about 11:00 and sbm at around 5
for the sax> ad-1000, i set the sax at about 1:00 and the ad-1000 wide open, +4

fyi im running mk4/mk41/cmc6xt

[jbraveman]

Is the low gain setting the same as no gain if the dials are turned all the way to the left?

[shaggy]

No, you get at least 6dB of gain on the low setting with the dials turned to the left.  If you read the the numbers '6/20' on the left and '40/76' on the right, those are the gain values for lo/hi gain settings.  You want no gain? Flip the gain switch to the middle.

[neumannkid]

lo - not sure i've ever needed to run it at hi. doesn't the hi setting start @ 40db gain? i normally don't run more than 30-35 db on the low setting anyway.

Ive usually ran the gain on high it starts on 20db so Im typically running it around 30-35 db and its worked quite well for my setup. 

[jbraveman]

No, you get at least 6dB of gain on the low setting with the dials turned to the left.  If you read the the numbers '6/20' on the left and '40/76' on the right, those are the gain values for lo/hi gain settings.  You want no gain? Flip the gain switch to the middle.

Thanks.  I wasn't totally sure.  I've found myself closer to this range more often than not.  It has been suggest to me to run the ADC at the highest possible setting.  At loud shows this translates  into very little gain from the sax.

[silentmark]

No, you get at least 6dB of gain on the low setting with the dials turned to the left.  If you read the the numbers '6/20' on the left and '40/76' on the right, those are the gain values for lo/hi gain settings.  You want no gain? Flip the gain switch to the middle.

Thanks.  I wasn't totally sure.  I've found myself closer to this range more often than not.  It has been suggest to me to run the ADC at the highest possible setting.  At loud shows this translates  into very little gain from the sax.

I would do this, as running at the no gain setting does, as stated earlier in this thread, introduce background noise ...

[ellaguru]

I ran 4022 > Sax (0 db) > SBM (10) > M1 for ABB this summer.  The levels were otherwise too hot.  I did not hear any problems.  I would be interested to know if there is a potential problem and if this should be avoided.

thats how i run the mg210's as well.   lowest gain setting is +6 on the dial.  i do have the -10db pad on the mics.  never tried that combo.

cr

[mhibbs]

hmmm, i bet i do have a few tapes of those, but i always hated the MG>248 tapes, WAY too bright IMO
the schoeps>248 will have to be heard!

I've got some.  Also, I'm planning on running 4s>248>722 in Vegas this weekend.  So far, I've only run my 148 w/ the 722....kinda interested to see how the 248 sounds w/ the 4s at high bit rates.


mitch