Topic: Preamp quality: MOTU Ultralite vs. Samson Mixpad (vs. Presonus Firebox)

[taper420]

So I'm getting ready to do an a/b blind comparison here. I've used the mixpad for years and I've always been happy with the results. I just got the ultralite and I've heard less then great things about the preamps.... I'm saving up to get the black lion upgrades but thats off some time in the future. So I wanna know which way I should go for now. Even though they have been critiqued, i'm still thinking the preamps in the ultralite might be better than the mixpads due to the pricepoint. I'm going to setup one microphone pointed at my boombox and run that into a phantom box, then into an art splitcom xlr splitter, then one into the ultralite and the other into the mixpad and then into the ultralite. then I'll have a friend play them so i dont know which one i'm hearing... is there anything wrong with that setup? the one weakpoint i think would be the xlr splitter because one output is parallel and the other goes through a transformer....will that mess it all up? Should I just run a wired split?

So anyone have any predictions on what i'll find?

Edit: I just realised there's more I'll have to do for a true A/B. I need to make sure the levels are as close as visibly possible and then I should normalize the files to a set db (say -3). All right I think that should give me a true comparison, anybody see any other holes?

[poorlyconditioned]

So I'm getting ready to do an a/b blind comparison here. I've used the mixpad for years and I've always been happy with the results. I just got the ultralite and I've heard less then great things about the preamps.... I'm saving up to get the black lion upgrades but thats off some time in the future. So I wanna know which way I should go for now. Even though they have been critiqued, i'm still thinking the preamps in the ultralite might be better than the mixpads due to the pricepoint. I'm going to setup one microphone pointed at my boombox and run that into a phantom box, then into an art splitcom xlr splitter, then one into the ultralite and the other into the mixpad and then into the ultralite. then I'll have a friend play them so i dont know which one i'm hearing... is there anything wrong with that setup? the one weakpoint i think would be the xlr splitter because one output is parallel and the other goes through a transformer....will that mess it all up? Should I just run a wired split?

So anyone have any projections on what i'll find?

No predictions, but I'd love to hear the results

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

Hi Listening tests are one thing, and hey its the most importaint thing in order to evaluate the preamps. IMO You should start with a 1 k tone and measure the outputs of both preamps so that you are using the same amount of gain. The  built in vu meters will be no where near accurate enough. The problem with listening is making sure that both outputs are at the same level because of the fletcher munson curve, you have to have levels be accurate. Use a ac volt meter and measure the output in mV. That is the starting point, I would get the outputs wired with a momentary switch so that when the switch is pressed in the preamp A is on, when it is released preamp B is on. Record a single track and see if you can hear the switch over. I can not go into details on how to make such a switch but I am sure Richard can give you good instructions. Its pretty simple I hope my two cents Helps you I would like to know how you make out as well!

Chris Church

So I'm getting ready to do an a/b blind comparison here. I've used the mixpad for years and I've always been happy with the results. I just got the ultralite and I've heard less then great things about the preamps.... I'm saving up to get the black lion upgrades but thats off some time in the future. So I wanna know which way I should go for now. Even though they have been critiqued, i'm still thinking the preamps in the ultralite might be better than the mixpads due to the pricepoint. I'm going to setup one microphone pointed at my boombox and run that into a phantom box, then into an art splitcom xlr splitter, then one into the ultralite and the other into the mixpad and then into the ultralite. then I'll have a friend play them so i dont know which one i'm hearing... is there anything wrong with that setup? the one weakpoint i think would be the xlr splitter because one output is parallel and the other goes through a transformer....will that mess it all up? Should I just run a wired split?

So anyone have any predictions on what i'll find?

Edit: I just realised there's more I'll have to do for a true A/B. I need to make sure the levels are as close as visibly possible and then I should normalize the files to a set db (say -3). All right I think that should give me a true comparison, anybody see any other holes?

[heath]

Hi Listening tests are one thing, and hey its the most importaint thing in order to evaluate the preamps. IMO You should start with a 1 k tone and measure the outputs of both preamps so that you are using the same amount of gain. The  built in vu meters will be no where near accurate enough. T

exactly

[RebelRebel]

and the Black Lion Mods make a world of difference to MOTU gear..

[smokydays]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

[RebelRebel]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

I seem to recall Brad (mcgowan, the boss) mentioning the ultralite specifically.

email him..

[easy jim]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

I emailed him when I bought my UltraLite.  He responded he would do the mod. for the same price as the 828mkII mod. since the innards are essentially the same.

[smokydays]

Awesome guys, thx for the info +t's

[TNJazz]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

Ultralite is 2x the price of the Firebox already, and I don't know how much of a difference you will really hear between the two when it comes to field taping.  In more controlled environments it would be very evident, but in a chatty bar taping a rock band?  Probably not. 

I will agree with Teddy that in general the Black Lion mods are a huge improvement to the stock MOTU gear though.

[poorlyconditioned]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

Ultralite is 2x the price of the Firebox already, and I don't know how much of a difference you will really hear between the two when it comes to field taping.  In more controlled environments it would be very evident, but in a chatty bar taping a rock band?  Probably not. 

I will agree with Teddy that in general the Black Lion mods are a huge improvement to the stock MOTU gear though.

I emailed BlackLion and the guy was great.  Gave me all kinds of tech info.  My impression, having not tried the MOTU, is that the stock quality is very poor, maybe even worse than a stock UA5, or at least no better.  So, you really need to figure the mod into the purchase price.  I really like the features (very compact size, front mixer, standalone operation to SPDIF!) on the MOTU, but the Firepod/firebox seem like much better value.  The stock pres are pretty good.

  Richard

[rowjimmy]

I didn't see anything on BlackLion's site about modding the Ultralite.  Am I to assume that they are going to mod them?  If thats the case, then I think the UltraLight will win out over the Presonus FireBox I was looking at.

I emailed him when I bought my UltraLite.  He responded he would do the mod. for the same price as the 828mkII mod. since the innards are essentially the same.

This is great news.
I'm sold. now if only my house was..

edit to add : +T!

[taper420]

Allright I finally got around to doing a preliminary test ....
so I dont have the best trained ears, I'm just getting started with the whole critical listening thing so I'll have some posts up soon so you can tell for yourself.... but my initial reaction was I couldn't hear much of a diffrence at all. As I listened further subtle differences began to appear. So these are just subjective opinions comparing the two, not an objective opinion of the units compared to all others. I think the Samson definetlly wins out. The MOTU is crunchier, grungier, and seems to have less clarity. The Samson seems smooth and silky in comparision. And with the levels perfectly matched using software levels, the Samson seems to have more presence. There's not much of a difference, but it's there. I know how I'll be running from now on.... I'll have to bring em both.

Now as for the future... when I can afford the black lion upgrade I most deffinetly want to get it, but heres the conundrum....

$500 ultralite base + $355 upgrade= $855 with two great preamps in a great peice of gear
$800 traveler base + $365 upgrade = $1,165 with FOUR great preamps in an AMAZING piece of gear

The $300 more for the traveler doesnt seem like that big of a deal anymore.
Might have to sell the ultralite when I have the money and go for the traveler with an upgrade instead of spending the same money for two less preamps
That's off for some time though...I'll just use the Samson till then
I've been running 3 mics lately so if I got the ultralite upgrade I would still have to lug the samson anyway...with the traveler I would finally be down to one unit (the samson only has 18v phantom so thats yet another box to bring when using it) I wonder if I could get close to enough for the traveler if I sold the mixpad and the ultralite..... ahh but then I'm stuck with 4 shitty preamps with no alternative.... nope ... I'll wait


edit: even though the levels are matched there seems to be a slight visible difference on each channel...like a snare hit will make one jump higher than the other for moment or one will decay faster than the other at certain parts. I can't pinpoint which is doing what right now....more word later....

[taper420]

FWIW I was definetly looking at the firebox and if your going to be only using it for stereo or even up to 6 channel recording, then it is definetly the way to go, from what I hear about the preamps. In fact my brother has one of the small presonus boxes (is it the inspire?) and if these have the same preamps as the firebox (can anyone confirm this?) I can do a comparison with that as well in the coming weeks. But back to what I was saying, I was hoping to use my new unit for more than just the stereo live taping that most of us here on the forum use these things for. So I needed a bare minimum of 8 channels, and I got 10 so that works out and since buying it less then a month ago I've already managed to get a paying multitrack gig, so it was definetly worth the extra investment. Just my 2 cents on the firebox debate...it's all what you intend on using it for,



....so anybody check out this alesis io 14/26 yet?

[nic]

figured I would put in my $.02 since I own/operate both MOTU and the Firebox.
while neither are anywhere near Grace quality in their preamps, the Motu (828, 828mkii and 896HD) pres are better than the Firebox.

the only pro I would give the Firbox relative to the Motu is the size/footprint.
many apps I have tried do not like the Firebox s/pdif input as the control utility has issues(locking up when switching between internal and external sync sources), and the mixer utility is almost useless. you have NO control over the line inputs other than a single checkbox to add 12db gain...this means you are reliant on the source to send good levels.

every time I have used the Firebox pres I have had issues...a weird staticy sound in the background. this is running either ac adapter or bus power.


with Motu, i have never had any problems with any function. granted, i rarely use the builtin pres, but its nice to know they are there and work for when I do need them.