Topic: Omni mic choices for open rigs....

[adrianf74]

Hey everyone:

Just had an interesting experience over the weekend at a local three-day festival where open rolling is allowed.  My buddy used his AKG 480 HC's in DINa and flew them at close to 10 feet.  I ran my CA-14 omnis with dead rats at 8.5 feet on Friday right next to his.  My CA-14 omnis sound much richer and cleaner (not to mention less artificial) than the AKG's.  I've noticed this a few times now.   My stand had an issue on Saturday so I recorded from about 1/4 way back from the stage and had horrific (but expected) results.  I then ran the CA-14 omnis at 10 feet for two of three acts on Sunday; for Jon Anderson, I ran the CA-14 cards with dead rats.

Again, the cards sounded artificial.  I can EQ the heck out of the show and get something listenable but I still prefer the omnis.

That said, if I wanted to upgrade my omnis, I know there are mics like the DPA 406x but I don't know if I want to drop $1k and those are more about 007 than anything.  If I have to do that, I have my CAFS which will do what I need them to do.  Price point is between $400 and $600 (maybe a touch more).  Used is okay.    I'm running a Sony PCM-M10.    Or... am I better just to stick with the CA-14's?

I'm sure this question has been asked enough times but I know mics do change and am interested to hear what people think. 

TIA.

[Gutbucket]

Personally, I havent found another omni I like nearly as much as the 4060 for less than $800/pair new (which is what a new pair should cost you, used for less).  I don't consider them "more about 007 than anything" just because they are small. They are great open and their small size makes putting them where you want and rigging the setup much easier than larger/heavier mics.  I have other great mics, but if I had to let them all go but one pair, those would be the ones.

You might check out the Countryman B3 (about $500 new/pair) which some like better and is right in your price range.

[rmx]

Hey everyone:

Just had an interesting experience over the weekend at a local three-day festival where open rolling is allowed.  My buddy used his AKG 480 HC's in DINa and flew them at close to 10 feet.  I ran my CA-14 omnis with dead rats at 8.5 feet on Friday right next to his.  My CA-14 omnis sound much richer and cleaner (not to mention less artificial) than the AKG's.  I've noticed this a few times now.   My stand had an issue on Saturday so I recorded from about 1/4 way back from the stage and had horrific (but expected) results.  I then ran the CA-14 omnis at 10 feet for two of three acts on Sunday; for Jon Anderson, I ran the CA-14 cards with dead rats.

Again, the cards sounded artificial.  I can EQ the heck out of the show and get something listenable but I still prefer the omnis.

That said, if I wanted to upgrade my omnis, I know there are mics like the DPA 406x but I don't know if I want to drop $1k and those are more about 007 than anything.  If I have to do that, I have my CAFS which will do what I need them to do.  Price point is between $400 and $600 (maybe a touch more).  Used is okay.    I'm running a Sony PCM-M10.    Or... am I better just to stick with the CA-14's?

I'm sure this question has been asked enough times but I know mics do change and am interested to hear what people think. 

TIA.

Check out these guys http://avensonaudio.com/sto2/ $500 for a matched pair. Great sounding mics

[gkatz]

the nevaton MCE400's could be a choice as well. numerous shows on the archive recorded with these small omnis. they've sold in the yard sale for ~300 before.

[acidjack]

If you're talking about open taping, you could also consider some used AKG 460/480 omnis, or possibly Busman or Peluso omnis (both available new for less than $1000 with every capsule).  I'd at least listen to some Busman samples; if you don't have an open rig as of yet, for $500 that Busman setup would give you every pattern for open taping (i.e., better cards than what you have, plus hypers and omnis), if you like the sound of it.  Though I'd probably first try to find some used 460s, if I planned longer-term to want a full open setup.

The comparisons you had don't seem ideal - AKG hypercards outdoors aren't something I'd imagine sounding very good in that setting.  CA-14 cards outdoors well.... aren't exactly AKG hypercards. 

That said, the last time I ran outdoors (which is not all that often) we had a whole mess of mics on a stand at various heights - DPA 4021s ORTF and AKG 414s in omni mode 3' split; Schoeps Mk5s in omni mode DIN, Schoeps Mk41s DINa, and lower on the stand.

Obviously not a "comp" in any sense of the word, but my prefs were actually toward the AKG 414s split and, surprisingly, the 41s, and the combo of the two was really nice.  The 5s kind of got the shaft since they were both lower on the stand and too close together for ideal purposes.

A mix of SBD+the 414s is here:  www.nyctaper.com/?p=6501 (streaming tracks)

From the same night, SBD + 41s + 5s: www.nyctaper.com/?p=6378 (different band, also two streaming tracks)

Like I said, not a comp, but interesting.

[aaronji]

Maybe I am misreading the original post, but it seems like you are not interested in low profile mics?  That would, in addition to the 406x, rule out the B3 and the MCE400, as well as some other choices, like the MKE2...

You could get a pair of CK62 caps in that price range, but that would only be a half solution. 

[adrianf74]

Thanks to everyone so far... I'm sure there'll be some more to read and respond to soon enough...

@Gutbucket: I'm not discounting the DPA 4061's - I've thought about them quite a few times now, I'm just trying to see what other 'sensible' options exist in mics -- especially if I can save a few $$.   I know the DPA's have an advantage in that I can use them in pretty low-pro situations as well.  The B3's are also something I've been pondering but am trying to find the best solution - Ideally, I'd love to buy them all and find the right fit but that's not very realistic (not to mention that my better half might kill me).

@rmx: I'll have to listen to some captures with the Avenson's to see what they're like as I don't see them mentioned that often in these parts [doesn't mean they're bad, either].

@gkatz: I know several people have commented on the MCE400's and they seem like pretty decent mics as well. 

@acidjack: YGM.

@aaronji: I'm not overly worried if they're big, small or somewhere in-between - I'm just trying to find what will give me the best bang for the buck when I can run an open solution.

[Todd R]

Another option are the Audio Technica AT4022 omnis.  I'd tell you what I really thought about them since I just got a pair, but sadly, I haven't had a chance to run them yet. 

They have a good reputation though, and I've run AT4041 cards before and they were very nice for the money.   The AT4022's usually retail for $350 each, though Amazon has them now for $257 each new.

I've heard good things about the Avensons, but they are power hungry which has always scared me off.  48v at the max spec'd phantom draw of 10ma each.  A 10ma draw is a fairly large drain on your batteries (not good for field powering), and it seems that many field preamps can't supply that kind of mic draw (even though it is within the phantom power spec'd range). 

What preamp will you be using with the omnis, assuming you get full-sized mics?

[adrianf74]

@ToddR: Power hungry isn't a good thing but I can always bring extra batteries if I needed to.  Most of the outdoor shows I go to run maybe 3-5 hours of actual run time per day (I don't usually bother going to the whole thing... just what I'm interested in).

The pre-amp is the million-dollar question.  Assuming I get full-szied mics, it'll depend on the mic itself.  I'm open to suggestions but am thinking about a Naiant variant.[/quote]

[Gutbucket]

I'm not overly worried if they're big, small or somewhere in-between - I'm just trying to find what will give me the best bang for the buck when I can run an open solution.

If size/weight isn't a concern, you might consider finding a pair of ADK TLs.  Outstanding bang for the buck IMO, and extremely versatile for open situations with switchable omni, card, hyper and figure-8 patterns.  As an switchable LD mic, the omni pattern is not a true pressure omni like most SDCs if that matters to you, but they sound great.

[JackoRoses]

a vote for the akg 482's (aka ck62) for omni choice They are the 2nd most used capsule in my bag after the cards. Of course I'm partial to akg since I run em

[rastasean]

I would go with the at4022 or countryman b3. I like both and they are almost equally as quiet.

[adrianf74]

Thanks everyone for their input on my choices.  Since my buddy has the 480's already, I spoke to him about picking up some CK62 caps.  I'm hoping maybe I can find a pair in the yard once the season's over and then use his gear when I get the open option.

[SmokinJoe]

If you like the sound of your CA-14 omnis, maybe you should just stick with them.  All these things that other people consider an "upgrade" may not be better to your ears.  I would kinda' suck to spend $1000 on some "better mics", then decide you like the sound of the CA14's better.  I tried CK62's when I had them and they just weren't the ideal flavor for me, same with Nak omnis, and ADK SC-T Omnis.  I did like the JZ BT201 omnis, but in the end I like the sound of AT853 omnis just about as well, and they are relatively cheap.  ADK-TL omnis are nice, you just need a rugged setup.

One time I ran my JZ omnis for a "brew fest".  One of those places where they give you a cup and you can walk to every vendor and say "fill 'er up" as many times as you want.  I'd been running those omnis outside a lot lately, and loving it, so I did the same here.  In the beginning the tape sounded great because nobody was paying attention to the band, everyone was off tapping kegs.  2 hours later, everyone was shit-faced and decided the best place to hang out and gab was under my mics.  The point is, sometimes omnis are the right tool for the job, and sometimes they aren't.  When they are, even reasonably cheap omnis will sound almost as good as high end ones.  When they are wrong for the situation, it's better to run directional mics.  I would love to drop $1k or $2k for a nice pair of Earthworks omnis, but I know I would only use them a few times a year, and even then they aren't going to sound "10 times better" than my AT853's.

[adrianf74]

If you like the sound of your CA-14 omnis, maybe you should just stick with them.  All these things that other people consider an "upgrade" may not be better to your ears.  I would kinda' suck to spend $1000 on some "better mics", then decide you like the sound of the CA14's better.  I tried CK62's when I had them and they just weren't the ideal flavor for me, same with Nak omnis, and ADK SC-T Omnis.  I did like the JZ BT201 omnis, but in the end I like the sound of AT853 omnis just about as well, and they are relatively cheap.  ADK-TL omnis are nice, you just need a rugged setup.

One time I ran my JZ omnis for a "brew fest".  One of those places where they give you a cup and you can walk to every vendor and say "fill 'er up" as many times as you want.  I'd been running those omnis outside a lot lately, and loving it, so I did the same here.  In the beginning the tape sounded great because nobody was paying attention to the band, everyone was off tapping kegs.  2 hours later, everyone was shit-faced and decided the best place to hang out and gab was under my mics.  The point is, sometimes omnis are the right tool for the job, and sometimes they aren't.  When they are, even reasonably cheap omnis will sound almost as good as high end ones.  When they are wrong for the situation, it's better to run directional mics.  I would love to drop $1k or $2k for a nice pair of Earthworks omnis, but I know I would only use them a few times a year, and even then they aren't going to sound "10 times better" than my AT853's.

I know what you're saying here. That's one of the reasons I refuse to drop $1k on a pair of DPA 4061's - the cost won't justify end result (it won't be "that" much better).

As far as the CK62's go, my buddy already has the bodies, cables, etc., so to run the caps would be nice when I could.   I can always run my M10 and CA-14 cards as an "alternate" recording if I have to.   My buddy also thought, for the minimal expenditure if we go halves, then it's not so bad.