Topic: Cardioid Move... from the CA-14's to...

[adrianf74]

Hey Everyone,

I remember asking about moving from my old SP-CMC-8's (AT-933/c) to CA-14's.  Been thinking about my "next move" for my cardioid mics as I'm good on the omni front (running DPA 4061s).  Currently running a Church Audio 9100 preamp (and a Church Audio Ugly Preamp for the DPA's to adjust for the 2dB difference in the mics).  Recorder Bit Bucket is a trusty M10.  **These will be for indoor use as I'll run the DPA's outdoors**

I know everybody here will talk budget and this is something I'll leave a little "open."  On the other hand, my setup will be for anything that isn't open as I have a friend who has AKG 480's with CK61/63's.  I keep drooling whenever I see Schoeps MK41's with a CMR and a TinyBox but don't know if I want to drop $1500+ on a mics, preamp, and cabling (maybe in the summer or after the summer season's over and there are some deals to be found).

So, I know there are mics like the Sennheiser MKE40's (aka MM-HSLC-1) that are worth looking at; I'm just wondering what they're like compared to the CA-14's.  And if not the MKE40's, then what?  I know some people here talk of Audix mics with church audio active cables.   My thought is that if I'm gonna make a jump, I want it to be worthwhile.  Maybe some of the regulars here can through some food for thought out there for me.

TIA.

[hi and lo]

There are no good lowpro cardioid options between CA-14s and MK4s. I completely agree with you that your next jump should be worthwhile and I just can't think of any affordable solutions that are worth a crap. Unfortunately, an MK4/41 setup is going to be $2500+, not $1500+.

FYI, an m10 is not a bitbucket. Unless I'm crazy (which is certainly possible) that term only applies to small hand-held recorders with a digital input.

[nicegrin]

Some options worth looking into... (all above $1K for sure):

* Schoeps MK4/MK41 active setup
* Neumann AK40/AK50 active setup
* AKG CK 61/63s actives
* Beyerdynamics CK930/CK950s
* DPA 402x
* Milab VM 44 links

BR,
N.

[page]

Some options worth looking into... (all above $1K for sure):

* Schoeps MK4/MK41 active setup
* Neumann AK40/AK50 active setup
* DPA 402x


* AKG CK 61s actives
* Beyerdynamics CK930/CK950s
* Milab VM 44 links

A used set of both 930 and 950 caps (inc cabling, etc) can be had for a little over $2k.

I don't think there is anything short of the ck61 actives in the sub 1k line that is worth jumping from the CA-14 caps, and people have been waiting on the akg remote capsule offerings for a while now. The beyers and milabs hover around 1k or more and I personally like both over the AKGs, but that's not sub 1k.

You can essentially lump condenser remote cap systems into two groups. The really expensive (first group), and the sort of expensive (second group).

edit: clarifying statement.

[Gutbucket]

Do the tinyboxes support AKG caps? if so, that may be an option.
Busman actives are another option, I've never used them and unsure how they compare to the CA-14.

I've been wondering about the DPA miniature supercardioid hanging choir mics, 4098 I think they are. They appear to be similar to their instrument mounted 4099 with higher sensitivity, possibly a less rolled off low end response (which is probably the issue to check into with these).  One user here has modified 4099s and really likes them as high-quality miniature directionals.  Worth inquiring about.  I'm quite curious myself.  Should be available for under $1000 a pair same powering, cabling and conectors as the 4061 so they would use your existing preamps.

[WiFiJeff]

>> One user here has modified 4099s and really likes them as high-quality miniature directionals.

That would be me.  Now you can buy them directly in the "correct" croakiable form factor as 4081s.  I have been using them for almost three years, sometimes alone but usually re-inforced by bass from a pair of 4063s low passed to try to compensate the roll off on the low end of the 4081s (as per the frequency plot on the DPA site, at 1 meter, when I started they only gave the bass roll-off for much closer distances and I had to play around, mostly added too much bass). 

A friend used to do much the same events as I, using MK4s > active cable > limoSax > SD702, presenting a tank-like presence (this is hardly a low-profile rig).  He preferred my tapes, though I think his were better.  I could duplicate the rig, but decline to try on the very wierd clown suit I'd have to wear to use it.

Jeff

[hi and lo]

I retract my previous statement. An AKG CK1x setup would be worth pursuing, either with a TB or with a PFA.

[acidjack]

I generally agree with the others and I wasted my time trying a lot of "interim" steps.

I did like my AKG ck9x active setup pretty well, and it was, I thought, a true step up from smaller mics, but it was also a custom-made solution.  Those aren't around much.  Similarly, any of the AKG active solutions being contemplated in that thread could run "only" around $1k.  If you could find a ck1x setup, even better.

The active setups that still require bodies in the chain are obviously less stealthy - Busman actives (still $899, and I'll be honest, at that price, I'd pass), Beyer 930/950, Milabs, MBHOs.  May not be a huge issue for you, but it certainly is less compact than what I'd call the gold standard in very lowpro setups, either the DPA 402x or Schoeps and the various solutions they offer.

If the Beyers can run w/o bodies with a tinybox (I believe they can), that is a legitimately good setup that is way better than CA-14s, doesn't require bodies, and costs a lot less than Schoeps.  Maybe some of the Beyer guys can confirm whether Jon has actually produced a full Beyer>tinybox rig - I know it's been discussed.

Also worth noting, but also needing bodies, Neumann KM140s have been going for a lot cheaper prices than the other mics they're typically compared to (Schoeps, DPA) lately, I believe because Neumann is phasing them out.  I have not run 140s, but I mean, they certainly are a very well respected mic.  If I could get a 140 set for $1600 with the active cables, I'd probably be able to live with running the bodies, esp because their bodies are tiny (much smaller than Schoeps/AKG/DPA/Beyer fullsize bodies); I don't know how they compare to Milab or MBHO). 

Lots of guys here are happy with the Beyers and don't show signs of moving from them; HOWEVER, you have to think carefully if you are one of those guys. Their resale value has not been great on these boards - I took a $250 hit on a set that was four months old; raoulduke's very nice looking set sat here for months and many price drops - and so if you move to Beyers, then think, "Oh, I really want Schoeps" or whatever, you will lose money.  Like I did.  I note that I owned the 950 hypers, not the more universally-loved 930 cards, though.  And mine were not actives.

*If* I could snag 140s at some of the sick prices that have been showing up around here, I'd probably do that, if I were doing it all over again.  That strikes me as the best deal going among the highest of the high end. 

Or you know, Schoeps rigs are now possible under $2k.  They of course have their naysayers, and they are $$$, but it seems an awful lot of people (myself included) keep buying them.   There is absolutely no argument, IMHO, that Schoeps offers the most options of ways to put together a rig, and therefore are a bit more adaptable to your needs. 

[page]

If the Beyers can run w/o bodies with a tinybox (I believe they can), that is a legitimately good setup that is way better than CA-14s, doesn't require bodies, and costs a lot less than Schoeps.  Maybe some of the Beyer guys can confirm whether Jon has actually produced a full Beyer>tinybox rig - I know it's been discussed.

kangfirmed, I don't use it since I don't stealth but there are guys here who do. It was one of the first setups ones since the system voltage was really close to what Jon's component choice aligned with.

Supposedly the MBHO caps work with a specifically configured naiant box as well but I haven't seen much on that.

I note that I owned the 950 hypers, not the more universally-loved 930 cards, though.  And mine were not actives.

yeah, that's why I said just over $2k gets a set of both caps, that's in line with the prior sales and appropriate depreciation of the new price.

and the 930s just about are universally loved in the beyer camp.  There is no mic that captures a better cymbal sound IMHO.

Or you know, Schoeps rigs are now possible under $2k.  They of course have their naysayers, and they are $$$, but it seems an awful lot of people (myself included) keep buying them.   There is absolutely no argument, IMHO, that Schoeps offers the most options of ways to put together a rig, and therefore are a bit more adaptable to your needs.

Very true, the initial buy in cost has previously been prohibitive for a lot of people, but now you can put together an initial pair of caps and the pre-requisites for around $2k, with another $1k or so per pair of caps you add after that, maybe slightly less depending on condition/age/desperation/etc.

[Belexes]

I've been hoping Chris Church might make something that would be an improvement over the CA-14's. *fingers crossed*

[yousef]

I agonised over this (well, substitute AT-853 for CA-14) for years before going for 4022s because I didn't really rate anything in the "inbetween" price bracket.

What I would say is that unless you're deeply unhappy with your CA-14 recordings, will be doing a lot of open taping or just have lots of cash to get rid of, it may be more sensible to stick with the Church mics.

Certainly the 4022s sound better than my old mics but they don't sound $1600 better, they're a damn sight bigger and they need  48v.

I love them but if I was being completely sensible and reasonable I think I would have a hard time justifying the expense.

But "sensible and reasonable" isn't what it's about 

[darktrain]

I know I have been through them all and the reality is the more you put into it(money) the more you are going to get out of it(recordings), I mean I pulled some "good" tapes with the church, hlsc, and AT's but only with the MK4/41's have I had some just killer pulls, one of the biggest negatives on all the minature cards is lack of bass.  Better mics are better for a reason, no getting around it, I think for me I have found they are more forgiving In almost everyway. Location and venue still play a big part, like you still can't get a great pull from the sbd area of the Aragon no matter what you have    So unless you are going to make that big leap to some schoeps, akg's, sennheisers, dpa etc...(the schopes have many ways now of running low profile, and the others have ways to run low pro as well) and I see no point in switching unless you just have the urge to try other mics.

[Gutbucket]

..I have been using them for almost three years, sometimes alone but usually re-inforced by bass from a pair of 4063s low passed to try to compensate the roll off on the low end of the 4081s..

I don't have any small or active directionals, there's all full bodied P48 SDC'S & LDC's.  Like myself, I know you record a lot of acoustic music which benefits from full bass sensitivity.  Is your decision on when to run those alone made by the type of music and recording situation or some other factor?  I ask because many 'low profile' tapes of loud amplified PA type music seem to be generally bass heavy and mid or treble light to begin with simply due to the lower, often less than ideal mic location, where a 'contured' response with less sensitivity at the bottom might not be such a terrible thing.  I'd prefer a flat response and making targeted EQ corrections later, but I'm just thinking it might not be a bad fit for many around here if the mic's aspects make it attractive otherwise.  But I'll also admit that the primary reason I haven't looked into these further is their rolled off bottom end.  Just trying to get a feel for how significant it is.

[newplanet7]

The active setups that still require bodies in the chain are obviously less stealthy - Busman actives (still $899, and I'll be honest, at that price, I'd pass), Beyer 930/950, Milabs, MBHOs.

Also worth noting, but also needing bodies, Neumann KM140s have been going for a lot cheaper prices than the other mics they're typically compared to (Schoeps, DPA) lately, I believe because Neumann is phasing them out.  I have not run 140s, but I mean, they certainly are a very well respected mic.  If I could get a 140 set for $1600 with the active cables, I'd probably be able to live with running the bodies, esp because their bodies are tiny (much smaller than Schoeps/AKG/DPA/Beyer fullsize bodies); I don't know how they compare to Milab or MBHO). 
 

The bodies on the Milab VM-44's are small and more along the lines of the KM100 for size.
They are modular also, offering omni, supercadioid, and cardioid. You can get into a NEW pair for around $1500
I don't think the Beyers ck series are modular. At least there was talk of not being able to buy caps separate.
Correct?
EDIT:
Meaning you can't just buy the caps without buying the cables like every other true modular set.

[acidjack]

I agonised over this (well, substitute AT-853 for CA-14) for years before going for 4022s because I didn't really rate anything in the "inbetween" price bracket.

What I would say is that unless you're deeply unhappy with your CA-14 recordings, will be doing a lot of open taping or just have lots of cash to get rid of, it may be more sensible to stick with the Church mics.

Certainly the 4022s sound better than my old mics but they don't sound $1600 better, they're a damn sight bigger and they need  48v.

I love them but if I was being completely sensible and reasonable I think I would have a hard time justifying the expense.

But "sensible and reasonable" isn't what it's about 

Not necessarily disagreeing with you - and maybe in a hat/stealthing, 4022s are not 10x better than CA-14s...

but used optimally?  I'd argue they are.  If it was possible to quantify such things.  And I'm not hating on CA-14s. It's just that the premium mics are, well.. the premium mics.  It doesn't mean that user skill doesn't come heavily into play.