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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Govt Mule on September 30, 2004, 01:37:18 PM
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I was close to purchasing the Oade mod FR-2. But after looking at storage, battery life and size the 722 looks like a better machine. And after buying media and Mods for the fr-2 it is potentially more expensive than the fr-2. And having an internal hard drive seems to be much better way to go.
The big drawback is the fact that I can't get a 722 till I don't know when.
I would like to be up and running by xmas jam. But I could live with my current UA5/jb3 till then.
Any Comments?
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I talked with someone at SD last week. They expect to have all current orders shipped by the end of the year, assuming no further delays, with the initial customer 722 units shipping in November. (He explicity declined to say early or late november ;-). So if you already have an order in, then you may have one.
All your reasons for waiting are the same as mine. Although I guess that there is a point where you have to go with what you can get.
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I was close to purchasing the Oade mod FR-2. But after looking at storage, battery life and size the 722 looks like a better machine. And after buying media and Mods for the fr-2 it is potentially more expensive than the fr-2. And having an internal hard drive seems to be much better way to go.
The big drawback is the fact that I can't get a 722 till I don't know when.
I would like to be up and running by xmas jam. But I could live with my current UA5/jb3 till then.
Any Comments?
For FR-2:
5GB (8 hours at 24/48) removable HD = $120
4Ah (good for 4-5 hours) NiMH pack and charger = $40
T or W mod is about $300
O mod I don't know enough about.
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I was close to purchasing the Oade mod FR-2. But after looking at storage, battery life and size the 722 looks like a better machine. And after buying media and Mods for the fr-2 it is potentially more expensive than the fr-2. And having an internal hard drive seems to be much better way to go.
The big drawback is the fact that I can't get a 722 till I don't know when.
I would like to be up and running by xmas jam. But I could live with my current UA5/jb3 till then.
Any Comments?
For FR-2:
5GB (8 hours at 24/48) removable HD = $120
4Ah (good for 4-5 hours) NiMH pack and charger = $40
T or W mod is about $300
O mod I don't know enough about.
wow, thanks for the info bob, that sounds VERY tempting :)
and the HD goes right into the DAW ???
how easyily does that actually happen :)
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and the HD goes right into the DAW ???
how easyily does that actually happen :)
You can buy a card reader for your PC or use the FR2's USB port.
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+T teabag, thanks :)
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how much is the actual fr-2
i need to investigate...
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how much is the actual fr-2
i need to investigate...
i think from oade it is 1250 or 1200 w/out any mods. but it needs at least a few mods to be acceptable by use for an all in one box. Doug found some flaws in the stock pre's
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I was close to purchasing the Oade mod FR-2. But after looking at storage, battery life and size the 722 looks like a better machine. And after buying media and Mods for the fr-2 it is potentially more expensive than the fr-2. And having an internal hard drive seems to be much better way to go.
The big drawback is the fact that I can't get a 722 till I don't know when.
I would like to be up and running by xmas jam. But I could live with my current UA5/jb3 till then.
Any Comments?
I'd like to know where you are coming up with the cost data?
as I understand it, the W or T mod FR2 will cost approx $1600 (or less)
add $130 for a single 5gb PCMCIA card drive for 5 hours of 24/48 or 2.5 hours of 24/96 and you are only at $1730.
even adding a second drive for easy 24/96 will be under $1850 i bet.
on a tech note...when you have a drive in the slot of the FR2 and change the sample rates or bit depth, the "time remaining" updates instantly w/the new recording setting. very cool.
btw, they brickwall stock. so you need the "O MOD" at the least, which allows you to run the stock unit (which I hear from the oades sounds good on its own) w/o brickwall issues. as we allready know from the UA5, the T and W mods make for wonderful sounding preamps. Easily on par w/other gear we pay 4 figures for.
what does the 722 run? $2100 or there abouts ?
plus, there WILL be a hdd mod for the FR2. Trust me. the 5gb cards will go away and an internal or external drive of many gigs will be the replacement. I've got an exteran drive experiment pending a small hardware delivery next week. i''ll report back.
It should be an EASY mod.
yea, its a little bulky. but it doesnt weigh anything.
battery life can be handled via 12v NimH packs of 4amps. (giving you better than 3.5hours of run time). Still nice and small.
while I think the 722 wins on the "cool factor", the price goes to the FR2. Sound...we'll have to wait and see, but i'll be very surprised if it outperforms an Oade mod'd FR2.
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The big drawback is the fact that I can't get a 722 till I don't know when.
I would like to be up and running by xmas jam.
not gonna happen, imo
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I want to run 24/96 so I will need more media. And have to bring the laptop along for three day runs.
Also I have yet to find the 5g drives that cheap.
The oade mod fr-2 is $1550
two sets of batteries $100
Could be wrong here but 5g drives are about $170 each
that's for less than 2.5 hours each based on my needs (or to be egual to a stock sd 722 that's 4)
total $2330.
the SD722 is $2375 stock
Or if you buy the RAW model at $2100 you can get a larger HD and your own battery any you could shave off a few $
Thanks for the input. I am still pondering. I might just wait till the fall for the sd 722. the W mod UA5 and the jb3 will get me through xmas jam and I could use the spare $ while in europe this winter.
Also, I just fed my equipement jones with the purcace of a pair of Neat speakers. They are amazing. Put on Oak Mountian 02 to test them and Houser's guitar just ripped through the room
thanks again
Pat
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Don't forget that you'll have to upgrade batteries for the 722 as well, unless you want to carry a 12v around, which I don't. Also, the 722 is now shipping with a 40g hard drive. I think that you could get buy with 2 5g cards and be fine. To be safe and cover all your regular (non-festival) nights, you would need 3 if you want to do 24/96. For me, the cost difference would be about $350-$400, but there would be less storage, but I won't get too hung up on storage space. I am pretty much over festivals and transferring to a laptop after the show would be a snap.
No one has really talked about the ergonomics of the FR2. Are the levels controlled on top of the unit? That is what it looks like to me from the pictures. Nick mentioned that the unit is light, but how is it built? The MMe was light when compared to the ad1000, but I think most would prefer the ad1000 construction.
Bottom line, the FR2 is a great option. Its cheaper and comes with the availability to be tailored to your tastes via multiple modification options. I haven't heard any samples, but I don't have any doubts that it more than likely sounds stellar. Does Doug mod anything that doesn't sound killer?
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the Toshiba PC Card 1.8" 5GB HD p/n: HDD1232CZP41002
on pricewatch, 2 vendors $136 shipped
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how much is the actual fr-2
i need to investigate...
i've seen b-stock units, that are warranteed, go for 1k on ebay.
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The other thing to think about is that the SD box will be built like a tank. You can run over their other products with a car and they'd still work.
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I think the FR2 is built really well, the ergo's are better than a P1. I love everything about it, it is a little large but very light with excellent meters, headphone amp that will drown out the house PA with a decent set of cans, the thing even has an external speaker for late night mono hotel listening 8)
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ok, so the MOD fr2 is $1550
batteries, you can get the 4amp packs for $29 per.
or, spend $8 on a 12v 4 or 5 amp SLA (which I have all ready)
A pair of drives should not cost more than $260 shipped. I think I just paid $122 for my single. A 2nd would be fine for 24/96, and i'll need to go that route if my HDD hack doesnt pan out...but I think it will.
So, box and drives come to $1810.
that does not include batteries as I think most folks who bought one would all ready have a 12v source laying around..and it takes a standard barrel connector.
Yes, the FR2 is a little bulky, like a double DAP1. and I did mention its light.
durrable? no metel. all plastic. plastic buttons. i'm sure its field worthy, of that I have no doubt. I bet I could drop it w/o any damage. the SD boxes will blow it away in terms of ruggedness, i'm sure of that. But I dont really need a box that I can drive over.
Levels are controlled in two places. One main gain stage on the front, and trim pots on the top....
I have yet to figure those out. I would assume you run the trim wide open and adjust the gain to "close enough" status, but a little hot. and then use the trim to attenuate from there. Its not really a big inconvience, that is for sure.
it sooo light. My mics weigh more than the entire pre/ad/recorder. not bad!
I plan on a full review of my O mod (relatively stock) unit come the EOM after ive had a chance to use it few times. I"m gong to do some A/B comparrisons w/Carls W-MOD unit. Daisy chain them in the field via AES cable and see what's what. I"m planning on the T mod for my own unit.
From what I understand of Dougs MODs, the W mod makes for a 148 sound (warm, punchy). The T mod makes for a V3 sound (open, detailed, flat).
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yeah, the T mod sounds YUMMY ;D
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Listening to an FR-2 tape for the first time, mk4>fr-2, neville bros. from telluride blues and brews, and really like the sound. To me, sounds a whole bunch like an m148, warm, but tight overall and dry in the low end. good first impression for sure, even listening to a 16bit cd.
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Listening to an FR-2 tape for the first time, mk4>fr-2, neville bros. from telluride blues and brews, and really like the sound. To me, sounds a whole bunch like an m148, warm, but tight overall and dry in the low end. good first impression for sure, even listening to a 16bit cd.
stock fr2?
do you have a server up?
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I have a couple tapes made with a stock FR-2. I think all mine are the 24bit sources from Callery. He has tried many different combos with and without A/Ds. I don't think I have all of these, but I kow I got a few of them. I can send a DVD out tomorrow with a few of them if you are interested.
http://digitalpanic.org/btforums/showthread.php?t=6577&highlight=FR-2
http://digitalpanic.org/btforums/showthread.php?t=5279&highlight=FR-2
http://digitalpanic.org/btforums/showthread.php?t=4623&highlight=FR-2
http://digitalpanic.org/btforums/showthread.php?t=6507
http://digitalpanic.org/btforums/showthread.php?t=5821
http://digitalpanic.org/btforums/showthread.php?t=5296
http://digitalpanic.org/btforums/showthread.php?t=6194
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Listening to an FR-2 tape for the first time, mk4>fr-2, neville bros. from telluride blues and brews, and really like the sound. To me, sounds a whole bunch like an m148, warm, but tight overall and dry in the low end. good first impression for sure, even listening to a 16bit cd.
stock fr2?
no, doug's w-mod.
do you have a server up?
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Listening to an FR-2 tape for the first time, mk4>fr-2, neville bros. from telluride blues and brews, and really like the sound. To me, sounds a whole bunch like an m148, warm, but tight overall and dry in the low end. good first impression for sure, even listening to a 16bit cd.
you would put it on par with an m148 then? I'm thinking about trading in my m148 > modsbm-1 eventually for either this or the 722, but I don't want to sacrifice sound at all...
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I'd listen to some samples that I think doug put up on oade forum, and talk to the oades about it first. I've run the oade for a year, and right away I could hear the similarities. and that's listening to a 16 bit disc. I really like the sound, and it'd make sense that if doug's gonna fool with the pre in the thing, he'd make it sound like he wants it to.
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Doug reccomended the t-mod for the gefell's fwiw, they are warm enough...and I agree! I can send you some gefell->fr t-mod samples if you would like.
Daryan
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My FR-2 sounds like a 148 but we aren't done with it yet, Doug is going to fatten it up just a little more for me. He can do either mod so if you decide after a while you want the T-mod or you changed mics you can send it back which is really cool. I love the sound of mine, we just haven't had anything worth taping all year up here!
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which translates as "i'm too lasy to go out on school nights"
there has been plenty of good taping.
why, DSO is coming to town next month. (ha ha ha)
Mule next weekend!
then Moe two weeks after
then DTB at the Avalon.
its shaping up
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Doug reccomended the t-mod for the gefell's fwiw, they are warm enough...and I agree! I can send you some gefell->fr t-mod samples if you would like.
Daryan
I'm not holding my breathe, but I'll take you up on the offer, along with the 90s you said you'd send :)
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Lazy??!?!?!? you mean drunk 8)
Yes, we finally have some good shows coming up instead of that Ratdog crap you try to pawn off to me as good music :P
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recent ratdog shows ripped the dead to pieces. if you miss the grateful dead see ratdog for a buzz you won't get from the dead.
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recent ratdog shows ripped the dead to pieces. if you miss the grateful dead see ratdog for a buzz you won't get from the dead.
No Garcia
No Buzz
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I agree, I think all these Dead cover bands are crap, haven't heard a good one yet!
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recent ratdog shows ripped the dead to pieces. if you miss the grateful dead see ratdog for a buzz you won't get from the dead.
*as jerry rolls in his grave*
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recent ratdog shows ripped the dead to pieces. if you miss the grateful dead see ratdog for a buzz you won't get from the dead.
Which Dead ?
The 2004 Dead or the 1993 Dead ?
But still, the music evolves, it must. Some years and line-ups are bound to be better than others.
There were years when the GD simply weren't as hot as others, so why should it be different now ?
Goes with the territory, I think.
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i'm tellin' ya carl, ratdog does not suck.
neither does P&F...but especialy not the doggy. You just dont like jazz...and they have a jazzy sound, so I can understand your distaste for them.
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i've already gotten into this conversation once this past week, im stayin out for now :)
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Hey Carl, got to see your Fr-2 last night at stone church.
Looks pretty, but doesn't work too well. You need to pack that thing in a feather pillow or something so the vibrations don't cause the drive to lock up.
Funny how I see your gear at more shows than I see you at. :P
JAson
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Jason that is funny! I'm telling you, I am this close to quitting this job & getting a different one. I can't stay out late on a schoolnight anymore b/c I actually have to work now! Screw this, I need a new job ;D
So it was locking up again?? I wonder if it was the same drive or not? I have two & I don't know which one John is using? We may have a problem here?
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and Nick is right, I guess I don't really get into the spacey jazzy thing except for when the dead did it in the 70's, mostly everything else is just crap, like Ratdogsh*t ;D
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Karl,
This is a known issue with these units. It happens to me too when you are very very close to the sound source like way fob in a bar. E-mail me at daryan.v.lenz.nv8n@statefarm.com and I will tell you about the solution I came up with that has worked thus far. Fostex claims it is not abnormal!
Daryan
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Doesn't the PDAudio run on the same drives? Does it have the same problems handling the vibration?
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Karl,
This is a known issue with these units. It happens to me too when you are very very close to the sound source like way fob in a bar. E-mail me at daryan.v.lenz.nv8n@statefarm.com and I will tell you about the solution I came up with that has worked thus far. Fostex claims it is not abnormal!
Daryan
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
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I don't believe it does have the same issues at all. I am having a hard time understanding why the issue would be with the fr-2 and not with the pd audio cards. As I said, I have a temporary solution, though I think another e-mail to fostex is in order.
Daryan
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just post the solution here.
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yeah, why keep it a secret?
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FYI, I haven't had any grief with my Tosh Drives.
Although I can see how any HD would be sensitive to high levels of shock,
I can't image hanging out in a space that loud or unstable.
When you talk to Fostex, tell them that you are considering sucking the fluid out of the LCD,
against the warning in the manual, and ask what could happen to you or why you might do it.
Everyone I ask hasn't a clue as to why they put that warning in there. ;D
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The solution I came up with, and I apologize for not posting it I was in a hurry at the time, was to buy dampening sound absorbing material off of ebay. It is like a rubber substance with an adhesive side and a regular side. I installed it into a sonicase, as that is what I am using these days, and neatly fit it to the exact size of the fr-2 with a little room to spare on each side. I then took the unit to the local bar and subjected it to the same sound levels as before and everything was peachy. As olong as the unit isn't vibrating, it is fine. This issue does not rear it's ugly head at all when taping from a distance, but say in a bar where you are 8 feet from the soundsource/stage, it certainly becomes an issue. I also find that vibration of the unit is sibstantially reduced by running the unit vertical as opposed to horizontal, and also not on any structure, but rather just on the ground. I don't have a good refrence of actual decibel levels where this occurs, and I apologize about that. Any more questions?
Daryan
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Thanks for the info !
No need to aplogize.
Glad that you've come up with a solution that works for you. :)
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Don't buy an FR2 until you can check out the 722. I've had the opportunity to run the 744 a few times now and am fully impressed with it. You can power it off of inexpensive camcorder batteries, the last one I use will power it for 6 hours. I've used for for a local "Americana" band, Harmonious Thunk, a couple Supersuckers shows and stealthed Dylan with it last week. Also did part of a DBT show, but ran out of power. Until the Dylan show, I ran 16bit 44.1 (for patching reasons), but went for the gusto at Dylan and did 24bit 192k, sounds amazing. I don't have a way to transfer the 24bit at the moment (no firewire or soundcard that will take the high rate), but should have this resolved soon and will post samples when I can.
On a side note, the headphone amp kicks ass.....loud enough to actually hear the headphones over the PA with mid range headphones.
Chapper
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Don't buy an FR2 until you can check out the 722. I've had the opportunity to run the 744 a few times now and am fully impressed with it. You can power it off of inexpensive camcorder batteries, the last one I use will power it for 6 hours. I've used for for a local "Americana" band, Harmonious Thunk, a couple Supersuckers shows and stealthed Dylan with it last week. Also did part of a DBT show, but ran out of power. Until the Dylan show, I ran 16bit 44.1 (for patching reasons), but went for the gusto at Dylan and did 24bit 192k, sounds amazing. I don't have a way to transfer the 24bit at the moment (no firewire or soundcard that will take the high rate), but should have this resolved soon and will post samples when I can.
On a side note, the headphone amp kicks ass.....loud enough to actually hear the headphones over the PA with mid range headphones.
Chapper
Geeks has a usb2/firewire combi- card for like $7 (http://www.compgeeks.com/)
The MOD FR-2 is pretty hot stuff, but could only stealth if you were more than sublime.
No Jedi mind trick would do it.
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who did you get a 744 to demo from? i thought the 744s werent ready even to demo yet... but i could be totally wrong
Don't buy an FR2 until you can check out the 722. I've had the opportunity to run the 744 a few times now and am fully impressed with it. You can power it off of inexpensive camcorder batteries, the last one I use will power it for 6 hours. I've used for for a local "Americana" band, Harmonious Thunk, a couple Supersuckers shows and stealthed Dylan with it last week. Also did part of a DBT show, but ran out of power. Until the Dylan show, I ran 16bit 44.1 (for patching reasons), but went for the gusto at Dylan and did 24bit 192k, sounds amazing. I don't have a way to transfer the 24bit at the moment (no firewire or soundcard that will take the high rate), but should have this resolved soon and will post samples when I can.
On a side note, the headphone amp kicks ass.....loud enough to actually hear the headphones over the PA with mid range headphones.
Chapper
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who did you get a 744 to demo from? i thought the 744s werent ready even to demo yet... but i could be totally wrong
SS in house dealer demo. pm me
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Yep...what John said. It's still in the beta stage, still not 100% or ready for demo status, but our findings have gone to SD and are being considered in the updates that supposed to be coming soon. I think Marc will be putting up a sample of the recent Fillmore Claypool show, he ran it with some MK41's, sounds great.
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Don't buy an FR2 until you can check out the 722.
You'll have to wait a while. The 744T is first to hit the streets and most of the first units are going to film sound recordist/engineers. The 722 isn't expected until Spring (I suppose that's not too bad), so folks will have a wait a bit for that unit.
I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens to archive.org once the 722 and 744T hit the street. I expect a whole lot more 24-bit shows appearing up there.
Wayne
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Don't buy an FR2 until you can check out the 722.
The 722 isn't expected until Spring (I suppose that's not too bad),
Wayne
When did you hear this?
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When did you hear this?
Just this week after folks returned from AES in CA.
Wayne
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SPRING? damn. that probably means august. which means september. which means november. which means...
maybe it's finally time to look into another option
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Anyone get a preliminary price on the R-4?
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Anyone get a preliminary price on the R-4?
$1595 expected street price.
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Sound Devices strikes again!!!!!!!
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at that price point, for applications other than stealth purposes i often question why not just go laptop.
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at that price point, for applications other than stealth purposes i often question why not just go laptop.
My committed deposit is with a vendor who does not sell laptops. Fr2 or R-4 is now looking like what I have to get if I'm going to do 96/24 at xmas jam. I called edirol and I'm hoping to hear back from them on whether or not a 2 channel digital patch into the R4 is direct or resampled.
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Sound Devices strikes again!!!!!!!
but the units do rock. i was very impressed with the 744 i got to use. the delay just blows
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Wayne, your info regarding 722s arriving in the spring is not accurate from what I was told at AES last weekend.
What should be clarified is any dealer placing an order for 7 Series now will not see anything until the spring. This will also be true for any end-user placing an order as well.
744ts will start to ship later this week. They will continue to ship over the next month. 722s will start to ship later this month and continue thru the end of the year. I hope to have all our preorders filled by the end of the year. I am as frustrated with the delays as the rest of those who have placed orders but the final product will be worth the wait. Those of us who have used the demos can attest to this. There are many reasons for the delays but the bottom line is they want this piece to kick ass. By compromising on parts that are not up to their standards makes the final product suffer.
thanks
- F
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Wayne, your info regarding 722s arriving in the spring is not accurate from what I was told at AES last weekend.
What should be clarified is any dealer placing an order for 7 Series now will not see anything until the spring. This will also be true for any end-user placing an order as well.
This may be what they were referring to. I think it's going to be great once they get these units out the door. It's just unfortunately they didn't really fit my needs. I still can't figure out why they didn't make the 744T a bit larger and go with 4 XLR connectors for mics. Now you must use a mixer if you want four mics on four channels.
Wayne
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or just use an external pre or a/d and go line/digital in for channels 3 and 4
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or just use an external pre or a/d and go line/digital in for channels 3 and 4
Exactly. So, in my case this was my setup:
SR-77--\
QTC-1 -- X4 -- AD2K+ -- DAP1
If I used the 744 it would have to be:
QTC1 --- X4 ----- 744
SR77 -------------- 744
OR
QTC1 -- X4 -- AD2K -- 744
SR77 --------------------- 744
Now with the Deva II it's
QTC1 ----\
SR77 ---- -- Deva II
It was simplicity I was looking for.
Wayne
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It's just unfortunately they didn't really fit my needs. I still can't figure out why they didn't make the 744T a bit larger and go with 4 XLR connectors for mics. Now you must use a mixer if you want four mics on four channels.
That keeps me up at night as well. I just fail to see the logic in their product differentiation, regardless for which crowd (eng, sound-for-picture, nature recordist, concert taper) they were shooting.
Let's break it down to expose their madness.
The 722 isn't mad at all. It's a direct replacement to the plain 2ch DAT recorders (DA-P1, HHB, Sony whateveritsmodelis). Priced right inbetween what those models costed. A very sane feature-set and product. A timecode option for it and they could have stopped right there - they would stay way clear of the big boys (Zaxcom, Cantar, Fostex, HHB) while completely owning their segment.
The 744T is where things go completely wrong. Why? Because to use all 4 channels you need an external preamp/mixer. This isn't a problem for the target audience since most of them already work with a mixer+recorder setup. BUT WHY ON EARTH TROWN MONEY ON THE PREAMPS WHEN ALL WHO BUYS IT PER DEFINITION ALREADY HAVE ALL THE PREAMPS IN THE WORLD!?
With two additional preamps they would at least be in a fight with the upcoming Zaxcom Fusion, but as it stands now the Fusion will rape the 744T with 1) Same price 2) 3rd generation hardware 3) Zaxcom brand 4) Four frikkin mic inputs.
The smart line-up would have been:
A) 722 with timecode option available.
B) Line-only six or eight channel recorder with timecode option.
This would have made Joe "I wan't a replacement for my DAT" Schmoe happy, it would have made the ENG/Picture people happy, it would have made tapers happy and it would have made Sound Devices happy since recorder sales would not in any way eat into their mixer sales.
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What should be clarified is any dealer placing an order for 7 Series now will not see anything until the spring. This will also be true for any end-user placing an order as well.
744ts will start to ship later this week.
thanks
- F
Thanks for that clarification. Your post reiterates what SD told me directly a month ago when I called them.
Blood pressure now returning to normal levels.
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Check the feature set again... The way it reads to me:
1)Inputs 3 and 4 on the 744t provide phantom power and,
2)Line level inputs are adjustable between -6 and +18 dbs.
While +18 won't do everything you need, it would certainly put out enough gain for some functions...
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Check the feature set again... The way it reads to me:
1)Inputs 3 and 4 on the 744t provide phantom power and,
2)Line level inputs are adjustable between -6 and +18 dbs.
While +18 won't do everything you need, it would certainly put out enough gain for some functions...
Where'd you find the first point? Cuz I'm looking at the feature set right now and I don't see it...
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With two additional preamps they would at least be in a fight with the upcoming Zaxcom Fusion, but as it stands now the Fusion will rape the 744T with 1) Same price 2) 3rd generation hardware 3) Zaxcom brand 4) Four frikkin mic inputs.
Zaxcom has one major issue going and that's price. Case in point. Their crowd is the film audio folks. They spend big bucks on products and Zaxcom has no incentive to make things any cheaper for them, so I doubt they will. I LOVE my new (refurbished) Deva II, but I got zero price breaks on it and then got a call back because it was going to cost me another $500 for a 40 GB hard drive... sheez. I doubt when fusion comes out it will be in the 744 ball park, could be wrong, but it doesn't fit Zaxcom's profile.
Wayne
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Check the feature set again... The way it reads to me:
1)Inputs 3 and 4 on the 744t provide phantom power and,
2)Line level inputs are adjustable between -6 and +18 dbs.
While +18 won't do everything you need, it would certainly put out enough gain for some functions...
Where'd you find the first point? Cuz I'm looking at the feature set right now and I don't see it...
Well, you got me... I thought that I had read it in the manual, but on second inspection, its not there. My error came from a review posted by Fran after his first night out:
One cool little feature is that you can send phantom to the LINE LEVEL inputs so you can use these for high-SPL situations also.
I read that to say that the line level inputs could output 48v when actually the XLR inputs set to line level can output phantom power...
my bad, but nobody's arguing that I am not an idiot
-
from page 14 of my user guide:
"Phantom Power is available for both mic and line level inputs. Using line level inputs with mics is useful in extreme SPL environments such as concert recording. Make certian to deactivate powre whne line level output devices are connected that are susceptible to damage from DC"
-
from page 14 of my user guide:
"Phantom Power is available for both mic and line level inputs. Using line level inputs with mics is useful in extreme SPL environments such as concert recording. Make certian to deactivate powre whne line level output devices are connected that are susceptible to damage from DC"
I suppose this might still be a doable solution, with some gender changers on the cable, but I wonder what happens when you're doing acoustical recordings??? It's one thing when you're going through a PA, but when you're micing just vocals or strings, I don't think this is going to be a workable solution for folks. Although if folks use QTC-1s, since there so damn hot to begin with, this might work even in that situation.
Thanks for pointing this out!
Wayne
-
A) 722 with timecode option available.
B) Line-only six or eight channel recorder with timecode option.
Flarnet and All,
I dove into this discussion a bit at AES with the SD boys and they offered the following response.
"If you look at the DAT machines that offered a Time Code option, they were always above $4,000.00, at least $2,000.00 more than the standard non-TC model.."
I recall this being of the HHB PortaDat and the Fostex TC DAT machine.
"...But, with the 744t, you get two extra channels."
Take this as you will. It is their sentiment.
If other manufacturers are upping the ante, things will get exciting for us all.
Marc
-
Check the feature set again... The way it reads to me:
1)Inputs 3 and 4 on the 744t provide phantom power and,
2)Line level inputs are adjustable between -6 and +18 dbs.
While +18 won't do everything you need, it would certainly put out enough gain for some functions...
Hi Bill and All,
I actually had an interesting experience with this last week at the Les and Bernie Brains show here in Denver.
I took a split off the backside of a Schoeps VMS 5U that the owner runs at +4 dBu to his V3. I tried going in at line level to the 744t and found after about 8 minutes (slow to commit, but the show had a very quiet start) that I should switch to mic level input and adjust as quickly as possible. Prior to switching to mic, I could only get peaks approaching -20dBfs even with the 744t line in at +18dBu. After switching, I had all the level control I needed.
All told, this really makes sense as most of us run about +35dBu on our mic pre-amps to get the levels we need. The +4dBu on the VMS along with the +18dBu of the 744t line input would only yield +22dBu and in turn deliver peaks no greater than about -12dBu even at the loudest parts of the show.
Nonetheless, as Bill points out, the +18dBu would be adequate for most applications as most professional line level outputs, like those of a soundboard, are capable of +24dbU or greater.
Marc
-
What should be clarified is any dealer placing an order for 7 Series now will not see anything until the spring. This will also be true for any end-user placing an order as well.
744ts will start to ship later this week.
thanks
- F
Thanks for that clarification. Your post reiterates what SD told me directly a month ago when I called them.
Blood pressure now returning to normal levels.
Hey All,
We are all getting pretty psyched for the release of 722's and 744t's.
As indicated, the 744t's are going to trickle out starting next week, according to forcasts from the folks at SD during AES.
Subsequently, 722's that were ordered in the first round, several months ago, are supposed to follow shortly thereafter.
A 722 was on display at AES.
Marc
-
was anything new added from vendor/user feedback during the tests?
-
because a ps-2 would be that hard to run in front
-
was anything new added from vendor/user feedback during the tests?
Hey Scott and All,
My impression is that all suggestions are on the back burner, but certainly being considered, until production is in full swing.
As changes are possible in firmware/software, they can always be developed and downloaded, just like the 1.07 download I just loaded on the 744t here.
Marc
-
I got an answer from SD on why they didn't include 4 mic inputs:
Wayne,
Size, power draw, and applications are the chief reasons we kept the product to
two mic inputs. From our research, when an application requires more than two microphone
inputs, its complexity and routing needs benefit from a full-featured mixer--like
our 442--or from a product that has extensive mixing functionality--like the larger
workstation recorders. For many applications, including two booms and two wires,
the 744T is a great fit (two 744T's are smaller and less expensive than any of its
workstation competition).
For applications where you need more that two microphone sources, yes you will need
a mixer with the 744T.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Not sure I agree with the decision, but there you go...
Wayne
-
It's just amazing I tell you. They say it themselves: If you need more than 2 inputs you already have a mixer. So why on earth do they even bother with ANY microphone inputs? Why not swap the cost/size/power draw of the two microphone inputs for 4 line inputs giving you a total of 6 line inputs? This would make the perfect match for the 442 mixer as you could go 4 channels direct and put the camera mix on the remaining two. Add to that two versions of the 722 (one with timecode and one without) and you have a much more even product line-up.
I maintain my opinion that the 7xx product line-up is poorly chosen and that the 744 has a flawed feature-set.
-
This would make the perfect match for the 442 mixer as you could go 4 channels direct and put the camera mix on the remaining two. Add to that two versions of the 722 (one with timecode and one without) and you have a much more even product line-up.
I still don't see where you're going to get 4 separate tracks of audio. You bring in 4 mics > 442, then you have to mix those to 2 channels out (either balanced or unbalanced), but you end up with 2 channels. OK, now you bring in camera feeds? You don't have 4 outputs on the 442 with 4 separate channels (or at least I don't think you do -- I don't own the 442, but the Wendt X4 which is similar only has 2 outputs).
Maybe I'm wrong. Can you explain this a bit more?
Wayne
-
The microphone inputs on the 442 have "direct outs" which is basically a post-preamp pre-fader output. That's four outputs. Then there is of course the two channel mix (which is also fed to the camera). All in all 6 channels.
-
I got an answer from SD on why they didn't include 4 mic inputs:
Wayne,
Size, power draw, and applications are the chief reasons we kept the product to
two mic inputs. From our research, when an application requires more than two microphone
inputs, its complexity and routing needs benefit from a full-featured mixer--like
our 442--or from a product that has extensive mixing functionality--like the larger
workstation recorders. For many applications, including two booms and two wires,
the 744T is a great fit (two 744T's are smaller and less expensive than any of its
workstation competition).
For applications where you need more that two microphone sources, yes you will need
a mixer with the 744T.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Not sure I agree with the decision, but there you go...
Wayne
I agree, it's poop, IMHO
A one-box Decca-Tree would have been awesome. The possibilities with 4 mic-ins and new processing technology would have meant
a very plausable surround sound with one box. The price difference from the 722 should have should brought a little bit more to the picnic.
I do not see the 744 as truly being DVD-A ready.
The tapes that I'm hearing from the 744 do sound great in stereo, tho'.
-
Looking at the 722 pictures on the SD website, the input panel shows mechanical switches for selecting mic/line/aes1&2 for port 1 and mic/line for port 2.
Does this box not accept an external 24/192 feed via an AES port pair?
Edit: answer is yes it accepts an external 24/192 feed.
-
Just to let everyone know, shipping has finally commenced on the 744t. Our first 2 units will arrive on Monday. Things should continue to move quickly from there....
- Frank
-
722s in a few weeks?
thanks for the update
-
Just to let everyone know, shipping has finally commenced on the 744t. Our first 2 units will arrive on Monday. Things should continue to move quickly from there....
- Frank
So did the 744s arrive?
-
they prolly meant november 05 :P
-
they prolly meant november 05 :P
don't give em too much credit, bean ;)
-
they prolly meant november 05 :P
don't give em too much credit, bean ;)
hehe, i had to ya know ;)
-
Is this the end of the line for the SD7xx box end-user feedback? This machine should be made into an X-files story... Where's Marc Nutter's stuff?
dazed and confused...
-
I'm vining a SCI tapersection recording with a T-Mod FR-2 for anyone who wants to hear it.
It was recorded with the Studio Projects LSD2.
Will U/L it or B&Free it to anyone who really can't do the vine.
-Bob
-
Just to let everyone know, shipping has finally commenced on the 744t. Our first 2 units will arrive on Monday. Things should continue to move quickly from there....
- Frank
Frank, did you ever get your customer units?
Marc Nutter, did you get any customer units yet?
-
prone to vibration and heat hdd failures..but that is a fault of the media.
they kick ass on CF cards. I still think its the best sounding "all in one" box ...as long as you buy into the Oade sound.
-
T mod w/your Gefells, i'd guess would sound pretty sweet. That was mentioned earlier on in this thread I think...as Dougs recomendation. fwiw...
why didn't i keep mine? well, at the time I just wasn't psyched w/my Omod, and didnt have the extra change for the other mods. I would have gone T myself as I was running AKG 414s then. the Omod was a little harsh sounding in the highs. I love Carls W mod. that thing fucking rocks.
IMO, keep your UA5s and go w/the microtrack. Unless you really want a single box, but I doubt that you'd hear much of a difference between them...other than the A/D chip, and i'm not sure what the fostex has in it or how they directly compare.
smaller, easier to power..and you know it sounds good.
-
it is the only one that will go 24/192.
the 722 does 24/192 as well
-
the pmd 671 only goes 24/48, apparently Doug is almost ready to announce that he is ready to mod that also correct?
the Marantz PMD-671 will do 24/96. not 192kHz, but it will do 96kHz.
-
the other Marantz box...whos numbered name escapes me...is supposed to be very nice. Its only 16bit, but Doug does a "concert mod" to it and he has been raving about how awesome it sounds.
fwiw...
He intends to send one to me for review last we spoke.
-
so now that people have had the opportunity to play around with these two machines for awhile, any more feedback? any shortcomings with the fr-2 ?
Even the latest version 1.08 of the firmware has needs some work. It handles digital-in somewhat oddly, indicating lock on lower frequency than you're feeding it. I corresponded last week with Fostex about it, here is what they told me:
>
>
> > Dear Jeff,
> >
> > The FR2 is working correctly.
> > The reason why the FR2 displays 48KHz, despite the fact
> > that it is correctly recognizing and looking to the incoming
> > 96kHz digital signal is;
> >
> > The digital signal source still issues a flag of 48kHz although
> > it is generating 96kHz.
> >
> > The recorded file by the FR2 has the correct 96kHz attribute
> > so that the editing software should find it without problem.
> >
> > FYI, our headquarters is considering the software
> > update on the FR2 so that it ignores the wrong flag issued
> > by the source.
> >
> > AES/EBU did not used to have the standard above 48kHz
> > sampling frequency. There still are many products that
> > put wrong flag in the market.
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:54 AM
> To: masaki@fostex.com
> Cc: rick@fostex.com
> Subject: FR2 96KHz Digital Recording
>
> I have taped some music with the digital input at 96 kH,
> and I think I am getting a good signal. The odd thing is
> that the Lunetec V3 feeding at 96 kH causes the FR2 to say it
> is locked at 44.1 kH, while the Core Sound Mic 2496 causes
> it to lock at 48 kH. When I play the files back in Wavelab,
> they play in slow motion and show up under "Audio Properties"
> as having 44.1 and 48 kH rates. When I edit this property to
> 96 kH they play correctly. It would be nice if a future
> firmware upgrade could correct this (without causing trouble
> elsewhere!).
>
> Jeff
Dear Jeff,
Thank you for your test report.
Yes, Fostex will change the Fs flag recognition
on the software update near future.
-
I don't think there's a problem with an external preamp, just external A/D. And it works, you just have to change the properties in Wavelab, much less of a hassle than the recently corrected Marantz 671 firmware issue of using the new Microsoft wav formats that Wavelab and others don't recognize. The FR2 also does recognize both AES (V3) and consumer digital levels automatically. But I hate not being absolutely certain during recording that I'm properly locked-in.
Jeff
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The thing with the FR-2 is you don't need to run an external a/d. I think the AD section sounds fantastic. I could see running a pre if you don't get the Oade mods but no need for an external AD. Wait and get the M-Audio if you have an ADC you're planning on running in the chain..
-
yea...for $1600 I think you can get the Oade mod of your choice.
and I still think it smokes anything else out there.
-
ah i see now, but that still is a hassle that a $1600 box should not exhibit imo. i think they sound great though, has the build quality given you any trouble yet?
I have only run it in the office, it's too big to stealth. It feels a bit plastic-y, and lots of air space, but no glaring weaknesses I can see. The parts that need to hold seem like they will.
Jeff
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ah i see now, but that still is a hassle that a $1600 box should not exhibit imo. i think they sound great though, has the build quality given you any trouble yet?
I have only run it in the office, it's too big to stealth. It feels a bit plastic-y, and lots of air space, but no glaring weaknesses I can see. The parts that need to hold seem like they will.
Jeff
Agree fully. After a year all the knobs and switches are still tight. On the plus side of lots of air space, it provides Doug lots of room to work with.
-
yea...for $1600 I think you can get the Oade mod of your choice.
and I still think it smokes anything else out there.
i think its 1500 for the t or w, then its another 125 or 150 for a mod simiiar to the PLUS mods done to the ua5. so for 1650 tops, you have a kickass box. the only bummers are the 12v power, build quality & not true digital 24/192. the 722 is a lot more expensive though. maybe if the m-audio works out it will be a moot point & i'll keep my ua5's, but damn the fr-2 is a nice sounding all in one even with its shortcomings mentioned above.
The 12volt power isn't bad since it doesn't draw that much current. A small 12 works fine, no need for a 7.2amp SLA.
-
yea, you can get 12v LiON packs.
viola!
-
pretty much every single thing we run, or will ever run, will have shortcomings imho. as has been mentioned before, no one really makes products with tapers in mind(except maybe core sounds?). almost every device needs to be modded in some way, or is lacking some feature we'd love, or isn't all in one, etc. i really hope the microtrack is sweet, but i highly doubt it'll be the holy grail. the sound devices box is actually not that much more expensive then the fr2 if you factor in 2 4gig CF cards; the reason it appeals to me is that i personally like most oade modded gear i've heard and i haven't really liked any 722 shows i've downloaded yet, just not for me.
and i really don't think the 192khz issue is a big one, for me at least. i see/hear absolutely no reason to desire it for what i tape, and it makes the files bigger. besides, from what i read, it most certainly does do 192khz recording, it's the marantz that only goes up to 96khz.
I can't see running 192 either. A gig per 1/2 hour is to much. I tend to record most stuff at 24/48. I like that I can then fit a full show on 1 DVD. I've just ordered 4gb CF for Carl's FR-2 and hopefully have put an end to at show lock-ups. With that I might find myself running 24/96 more often.
-
24/96 = great crowd conversations
-
24/96 = great crowd conversations
I've heard you say this before too, but my experience has been that there is virtually no difference between 48K and 96K when it comes to crowd noise (and almost none when it comes to recordings at venues). There isn't any scientific reason I can think of either that would endorse your theory. I would understand a 16 to 24-bit argument, since you get around 126 dB in dynamic range at 24-bits. However, increasing the sampling rate doesn't equate to better crowd noise/conversations.
I haven't yet experienced this with my testing, so I'm wondering why you continue to state this as a fact?
Wayne
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24/96 = great crowd conversations
I would expect that if higher resolution recording allows you to better pick out a back-ground conversation, it should also allow you to hear greater details in the music. But maybe this only applies to close mic'd accoustic music. If a PA isn't capable of presenting detail below a certain level, then the ambient sounds will have more detail than the music. That is what led to the quoted statement?
-
wayne, may i ask how you feel about 96 vs 192?
I don't use 192, so I can't comment on that. Since I would be chewing through a ton of hard drive space, I would be hard pressed to use 192 even with an 80 GB drive in the Deva.
Wayne
-
with all this talk of 16 v. 24 - if there is added crowd noise, would it be worthwhile to record at 24 w/ omni mics?
i like my 4061's, but at any decent sized venue - i hardly ever get good tapes unless i'm close to the stack
-
i guess i just wonder why you are so concerned with 192 raoulduke, help me understand :)
I think I will be happy running the Microtrack at 96 kH, and for that matter I can't hear the top frequencies you get at 44.1 kH. But I want to try some 192 kH to see if it in fact allows for better stereo separation with acoustic music recorded with a Jecklin disc. Your ears can usually differentiate the priority of a sound to within one cycle of a 192 kH rate, so if you're using a stereo pair rather than spot-micing everything, this higher rate might be a Good Thing.
Jeff
-
with all this talk of 16 v. 24 - if there is added crowd noise, would it be worthwhile to record at 24 w/ omni mics?
i like my 4061's, but at any decent sized venue - i hardly ever get good tapes unless i'm close to the stack
I always record in 24-bit regardless of venue. However, I'm at an advantage since I can mantain everything as a multitrack file. Then I can tinker with the balance of multiple mics and/or the board feed later in post. Omni's in general tend to be great, but lose their effectiveness as you get further and further away from the source. I love using omnis with acoustical and classical music, but tend to turn them way down for amplified music since they don't nearly add a lot to the picture from the rear of a concert hall.
Wayne
-
24/96 = great crowd conversations
So are you of the opinion that 24/48 is fine for our purposes?
-
24/96 = great crowd conversations
So are you of the opinion that 24/48 is fine for our purposes?
i am. i resample all 24/96 sources to 24/48 for my own personal use to fit on one disk and i cant tell the difference.
-
thanks
+T
I'm interested in hearing where this debate is at now that more people are rolling at 24bit... the space required is just HUGE with 96 and 192 sample rates. I'm blowing through HDD space right now with 16/44.1 flac's... I can't imagine how much I'll use when I go to 24 bit
-
backatcha. the difference in space vs. audible sound is not worth it to me.
-
the space required is just HUGE with 96 and 192 sample rates. I'm blowing through HDD space right now with 16/44.1 flac's... I can't imagine how much I'll use when I go to 24 bit
You have to off-load using DVDs.
I usually have 2 DVDs when I finish a show. One DVD contains the raw multitrack files, a 24-bit edited file, while the other contains 16/44.1 versions of the show. I find storage space a huge problem. When I finish the dresser for my daughter's birthday, I'm going to build some additional shelving to help out.
Wayne
-
24/96 = great crowd conversations
So are you of the opinion that 24/48 is fine for our purposes?
i am. i resample all 24/96 sources to 24/48 for my own personal use to fit on one disk and i cant tell the difference.
I burn 24/96 DVD for use at home. But honestly I don't know why. When we had this discussion a while back, wayne sent me samples of 24/48 vs 24/96 and I could not pick out the 96k recording from the 48k. There were differences which I attributed to it being different nights and not the sampling rate. Maybe better ears could find a difference, but I couldn't.
-
thanks
+T
I'm interested in hearing where this debate is at now that more people are rolling at 24bit... the space required is just HUGE with 96 and 192 sample rates. I'm blowing through HDD space right now with 16/44.1 flac's... I can't imagine how much I'll use when I go to 24 bit
QFT, good thing harddrives are so big/cheap now
we need a large/cheap removeable medium DVD doesn't cut it
-
we need a large/cheap removeable medium DVD doesn't cut it
.... thus the birth of Blue-Ray. Now, if only Sony would cut the crap and figure out how to make a license that folks could actually use...
Wayne
-
OK, comments pertaining to the fr-2. I will not comment about the 722/744 but will say I like the lights.
The fr-2...
In my opinion, it is the solution I had always wanted when I first jumped into laptop taping. I wanted one box, removable media, top notch build, and MOST importantly, I wanted world class sound. I believe I have the 2nd FR-2 that Doug ever modded fwiw. There really is no plus to the plus mod in the fr-2 unless you want to use the DAC's, which in that case Doug changes out the caps and possibly the op amps in the DAC path which feeds the RCA outs. I do not use the analog outs, never have, never will, so it was of very little consequence to me.
I tape at 24/96 exclusively and run my gefell's directly, mic-in, to the "t-mod" preamps and internal a/d of the fr-2. The sound, to me, is absolutely the best I will ever attain. After running some direct comparisions by set with the fr-2 modded, Eric Folske's V3, and my own Mini-MP, I pretty much was able to sell quite a bit of gear because the outboard gear was just not as good to my ears. The t-mod fr-2 is the most transparent, detailed, dynamic sounding box I have ever used. The air around instruments is mind blowing. I get enough of so-called warmth (to me, lack of detail :P), with the gefells alone, specifically the m20 caps.
Enough about the sound...
The rest.
The cpcmcia cards are great for outdoor shows. With the air blwoing around and not stuck in some ungodly hot bar, the pcmcia drives work fantatically at ANY sample rate I have thrown at them. I recorded exclusively at moe.down and all summer long for that matter outdoors at 24/96 and occassionally 192. The media kept up like a champ. However, take those drives indoors in stale stank nasty air that pretty much every concert bar type venue I have been around is, and they will fail. It will take a while, but eventually you will get a disc error and that's all she wrote. CF cards, even the crappy 2.2gb cards that are dirt cheap work just fine at every sample rate.
As for not being able to hear the difference between 24/48 and the rest, I would beg to differ and would surmise (falsely?) that it may be due to lack or resolution on your playback system. I hear lots more in the top, better dynamics, bigger soundstage, greater depth, etc at 24/96 than I do at 24/48. I imagine some systems may not be able to take advantage of the greater resolution, but mine does fwiw and at least to my ears. Please PM if you have specific questions on anything I have said above.
Regards
Daryan
-
24/96 = great crowd conversations
I've heard you say this before too, but my experience has been that there is virtually no difference between 48K and 96K when it comes to crowd noise (and almost none when it comes to recordings at venues). There isn't any scientific reason I can think of either that would endorse your theory. I would understand a 16 to 24-bit argument, since you get around 126 dB in dynamic range at 24-bits. However, increasing the sampling rate doesn't equate to better crowd noise/conversations.
I haven't yet experienced this with my testing, so I'm wondering why you continue to state this as a fact?
Wayne
Wayne...I dont state anything as a fact...just opinion, and in this case..opinions of my own recordings.
Whenever I run 24/96 in small venue/bar situations, I end up with too much detail in the conversations..It becomes annoying as I can actualy hear what people are talking about. I can hear spatial depth of people around the mics in say...a 10' radius (at times).
Its probably more the 24bit factor. But I can say that in these situations, my dithered redbook versions are the ones I listen to.
In general, I like 2496 if you are close up and can actualy make use of it. Otherwise, for ease of burning 2448 sounds fucking A good.
When my microtracker arrives, I'll probably start mastering everything at 2441 from here out.
-
... would surmise (falsely?) that it may be due to lack or resolution on your playback system.
Yeah, I'm sure that's the problem.
Nick, when you ran your tests 24/96 vs redbook, did you compare 24/48 vs 24/96?
Wayne, what system do you listen on? You predicted my results.
-
Yeah, I'm sure that's the problem.
:lol:
I was wondering how long it would take for you to respond to that
-
... would surmise (falsely?) that it may be due to lack or resolution on your playback system.
having listened to shows on Michaels playback system, I can tell you that is not the brightest of statements...considering his playback system is something I would kill to have...just have to get the wife to buy into the VR4Jrs...which I am working on!
-
Wayne, what system do you listen on? You predicted my results.
Too many years in the studio. ;-)
I have two playback systems, one is the DVD-A, Yamaha, Bose combo. The other is my monitoring rig Alesis amp and Alesis monitors (one of these days, I'm going to buy a set of those Earthworks Sigma monitors! Man, those things are awesome!).
I don't think either of those can be attributed to not hearing the difference. I truly think it's a matter of there not being a difference in the sampling rate at those higher levels. Several years back there was a very interesting thread on the Logic (pre-Apple buyout) list where several of the Logic engineers talked about samping rates. They gave some pretty detailed (i.e. mathematical and scientific) reasons why higher sampling rates you gained very little in the audible range (yes, Nyquist was involved too).
Anyhow, if Nick thinks he can hear a difference, more power to him, but I'll remain a skeptic until I can truly hear it.
Wayne
-
Anyhow, if Nick thinks he can hear a difference, more power to him, but I'll remain a skeptic until I can truly hear it.
That was Daryan who hears the difference. I was refering to Nick's tests of redbook (edit: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=31721.0) and an upsampling DAC to 24/96 recordings in which he determined that the upsampling was so close to 24/96 that the latter wasn't worth the extra cost and post production effort. I was wondering if he also tried a straight up 48k vs 96k test.
BTW, I can offer those test disks that Wayne sent to me if anyone is interested.
-
no...I have not done 48k vs 96k tests.
I have also since dumped all of my upsampling playback gear since 2496 became so turn key w/the R4 and Discwelder.
There was another post I made somewhere in the playback forum where I flippflopped on my upsampling (sort of). I still feel a good upsampling system does wonders, but raw 24bit sounds soo good.
for that matter...I cant remember the last time I was disapointed w/a great redbook disc either. fickle ...I am!
Wayne..you just think i'm full of shit eh?
:)
-
Wayne..you just think i'm full of shit eh?
:)
I just don't buy the 48k vs. 96k theory you're tossing out. I really think this has more to do with 16- vs 24-bit, rather than sampling rate. However, do what you think works for you.
Wayne
-
hmmmm...
I dont recall ever saying anything about 48k vs 96k specifaly. could you point that out for me?
-
hmmmm...
I dont recall ever saying anything about 48k vs 96k specifaly. could you point that out for me?
Nevermind... Too much sawdust on the brain. Yesterday I was taking a break from the workshop when I read this thread and after re-reading the entry where I thought you were being specific about 96K vs. 48K. I realize it was a figment of my imagination... damn. Sorry about that.
Wayne
-
... would surmise (falsely?) that it may be due to lack or resolution on your playback system.
Yeah, I'm sure that's the problem.
Nick, when you ran your tests 24/96 vs redbook, did you compare 24/48 vs 24/96?
Wayne, what system do you listen on? You predicted my results.
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just repsonding to what I had read which wasn't a whole lot. I can definately hear the difference, though one thing I have read is that it ia harder to hear with tube based systems. Not knowing what anyone on here listens on, I really couldn't say. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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hmmmm...
I dont recall ever saying anything about 48k vs 96k specifaly. could you point that out for me?
Nevermind... Too much sawdust on the brain. Yesterday I was taking a break from the workshop when I read this thread and after re-reading the entry where I thought you were being specific about 96K vs. 48K. I realize it was a figment of my imagination... damn. Sorry about that.
Wayne
thats cool. All good.
+T Wayne
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Current Rig:
Microtech Gefell 200/210->Zaolla Silverlines->Fostex Transparent modified FR-2 (24 bits!)
Playback: Digital source->Toshiba 4960 (massive tweaks coming)->Bolder Cable Modified Panasonic XR-45 with bybee's->Bolder Nitro speaker cables->VMPS Audio 626r's with all upgrades, Rocket ELS SLT rears, mains on stands (modified with purple neon lights, about 24inches off the ground
Tweaks: vibroapods, bronze cones, heavy speaker spikes, isolation platforms under all components, heavy room treatment using accoustic purple foam, bass traps in all corners, BPT 1.5r Power Conditioner with litz wiring and added filter (may change out receptacles and rewire diy in the near future)
who gives a fuck how many inches your speakers are off the ground, or what color your neon lights are, you shady dickweed. :-X
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So far I'm in love with the FR-2 as it has treated me well especially since switching over to recording with CF. I record just about everything at 24-96 minus a few sets where I knew I would have enough space to do 24-192.
I will try & post a few songs from different sets for people to download.
My only complaint is the huge lead battery that has destroyed my duffel bag. I plan on changing that soon as I want to get some 12v battery packs.
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Oops it would have been helpful if I provided that information.
I have the O-Mod FR2 that I purchased from Nick & I have a 3 capsule matched set of Oktava mc012's.
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No, I have no current plans of getting any other mods. I am really happy with the O-Mod & don't feel any changes need to be made at this time. My opinion could change but for now I don't think it will.
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When my microtracker arrives, I'll probably start mastering everything at 2441 from here out.
just remember dvd-video (audio-dvd-creator) doesn't support 44.1k, only 48k and 96k. I'd stick with 48k mastering unless you're switching to dvd-a for 24bit playback.
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I haven't used ADVDC for a while. I prefer the gapless DVD-A action.
however...
I just sort of discovered that my kick ass Toshiba SD9200 only outputs 2448 via PCM.
Gggrrrrr!
oh well. all the more reason for 2441.
Plus, then I only have one step in wavlab (uv22hr) for car music.
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I personally think you will enjoy the fr-2 just as much, if not more. I didn't care so much for the v3 with the gefell's, it still sounds great, it was just missing the presence that I wanted. The t-mod on the other hand sounds fantastic. Then again, I imagine a lot of what hear is depndant on my playback system too. If I had a tube amp, I may think differently. I can send you all the samples in the world of the t-mod with gefells though.
D~
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While I don't have the T-Mod version of the FR-2, I can't tell you how happy I am with the overall performance of it. Now that CF prices are dropping, I wouldn't mind picking up another 4 gig card.
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A great device. I think you will be happy with the t-mod. I'm seriously considering an upgrade. I heard great tapes from the modded fr-2.
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the O mod alone does sound good. but the high end is shrill and not very detailed, imo. its nit picking though, I pulled some great recording with it.
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I think there are several mods that can be performed on the fr-2 by Doug. The transparency or warm mods basically improve the sound quality of the "on-board" pre-amp (analog in). I've heard that the t-mod has a similar sound to the V3 and the w-mod has a sound close to the M148. I would ask Doug for more details. I think doug can also improve the analog out but I have not heard too much about this modification. The benefit of the fr-2 is that there is a lot of "head room" to work with for various modifications (i.e. addition of time code slates, mods to pre-amps, etc.) without eliminating other features (like mods to the Marantz 660).
I believe that the fr-2 can accept a microdrive. I occasionally use the PCM/CIA drive for my 1.8 inch hard drive with no problems. I've heard of disk errors with these drives at high sampling rates (24/96) but I have never encountered this problem at 24/48. I've taped a couple of shows that were very bass heavy (I could feel the bass vibrations pulsing thru the device). I prefer to use my cf card (4 gb Kingston) to avoid any stability issues with small drives. Typically, I will tape openers with the removable hard drive and use the cf card for the main performer.
The size and battery requirement is the only limiting factor of the fr-2. This device is very power hungry. I lug around a 12v SLA battery for several hours of recording time. The fr-2 size is large compared to the 671 but the weight is probably very similar to the Marantz unit. The fr-2 has an excellent display screen and you don't need the manual to figure out how to run the device (very user friendly). The buttons are large and separated enough to avoid possible errors with pushing the wrong button in dark situations. There are two recording level knobs on the fr-2 (trim knobs on the top and the recording knob on the front of the device). I typically run the recording knob at 10 and use the trim knobs to adjust levels (Doug's recommendation)
I hope this helps!!
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having used all of them, the Marantz is the best in all things ergonomic, battery power..etc.
it can swing a microdrive as well.
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My FR2 was the second one Doug ever did, his was the first ;D Mine has improved analog outs as well as better jacks. I have never listened to the analog out unfortunately but Doug did in fact change the analog section on mine as well as the ADC & gain stage. I think the FR2 is extremely easy to use & has the best meters out there, even better than Nick's Marantz. The only downside is the 12 volts.
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I tried a Lion pack (actually two of them!) but it was HORRIBLE quality so I am back to lead at this point.
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I believe it is 1 amp per hour. It isn't THAT power hungry IMO, I always run phantom as well. It's just the 12 volts that suck.
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batteries failed in weeks & months
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yes, they were sweet for a little while.
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I got tired of lead as it ruined numerous duffel bags of mine by ripping multiple holes. I went with the battery from this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=51457.0
I have been using it since Dec 29th & no problems. I just came home from recording over 4 hours & I still have 2 links left. The show was only going to be about 2 hours but everyone decided to hang & it turned into a afterparty show :)
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My FR2 was the second one Doug ever did, his was the first ;D Mine has improved analog outs as well as better jacks. I have never listened to the analog out unfortunately but Doug did in fact change the analog section on mine as well as the ADC & gain stage. I think the FR2 is extremely easy to use & has the best meters out there, even better than Nick's Marantz. The only downside is the 12 volts.
as you know, i disagree about the meeters. I"ve used both, and found the Marantz to be much nicer. Plus, setting the levels was way easier w/the marantz. I didnt' like the FR2 "trim", on top of the deck where you have to reach in and futz w/it...possible to hit other switches and stuff in the dark.
its also a big clunk of a box compared to the sleek little 671. the 12v requirement sucks, and its as hungry as an AD1000 at 1amp / hour. Ouch!!
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Raoulduke,
Here is a quote from Doug about the gain controls...
I see a lot of FR-2 users who set the front panel record knob to 7. This kills 12 dB of gain thereby raising the noise floor. It is a bad idea, try running at 8, this still gives you 6 dB of level that can be applied from the front panel level control and gives you 6dB better SN ratio on the downstream side of the front panel attenuator. The front panel control is NOT a gain control, the only gain controls are the input trim knobs on the top of the deck. I bypassed the front panel control and the HPF/Limiter in my FR-2 and it sounds better. I set levels with the input gain controls. You can get closer to that and for free just by running your FR-2 as close to 10 on the front panel level control as possible.
Peace and good sound...Doug
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too much bullshit to think about. poorly designed gain stage, imo. but that is from a taper perspective, for which it was not designed. maybe the thing is brilliant. what do I know. other than "me no like"
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Bah Humbug Nick! Your starting to sound like a grouchy old man :P
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too much bullshit to think about. poorly designed gain stage, imo. but that is from a taper perspective, for which it was not designed. maybe the thing is brilliant. what do I know. other than "me no like"
Please update your website's review for the above statements. ;D
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Nick is just trying to justify his own purchase, with all the money he saved buying the "little" Marantz you would think he could afford a battery pack ;D
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too much bullshit to think about. poorly designed gain stage, imo. but that is from a taper perspective, for which it was not designed. maybe the thing is brilliant. what do I know. other than "me no like"
Please update your website's review for the above statements. ;D
Nick is just trying to justify his own purchase, with all the money he saved buying the "little" Marantz you would think he could afford a battery pack ;D
:lol:
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:flipa:
dontchu talk shit about my 660.
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OK, I will blame it on Duracell, damn duracell!! Damn you copper top ;D
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OK, I will blame it on Duracell, damn duracell!! Damn you copper top ;D
two sets of coppertops got me through a DDBB show with the FR-2 when the nicads "wanted" to stay home ::)