Topic: will nak cm300's work with a m10 recorder?

[SHINN]

So I'm buying a Sony M10 and was wondering if I can use the nak cm300 mics with it untill I decide on something smaller? I haven't done any recording since the 80's, but since I already have the nak mics I was thinking of using them.

Down the road I would like to get something like the DPA 4061's and run without a BB or preamp if possible. I used to have a Sennheiser mic that looked like the DPA 4060 and it worked good with the plug in power on my D3 (for quiet shows). I only had one and haven't been able to find it tho.  Does anyone know if the 4061's or 4060's can be run off the M10 plug in power?

Thanks

[fmaderjr]

Does anyone know if the 4061's or 4060's can be run off the M10 plug in power?

Much to my surprise, my 4060's do "work" with the M10's plug in power. However you'd be risking disaster to record anything at all loud without a battery box. You'd probably get distortion at times if not frequently. The 4060's are said to require at least 5 volts PIP for optimal performance.

I have used 4060's to record loud music successfully with the PIP provided by the PMD-620 and MT 24/96, but both of those provide at least 4.6 volts PIP whereas the M10 provides only a bit over 3 volts (a big difference for mics that need more than minimal PIP).

[Roger Gustavsson]

I have no experience of the Sony M10. The Nakamichi CM-300 require a lot of gain if they are not modified. Without the balancing transformer the need for low noise gain is reduced by about 10 dB.

Roger

[SHINN]

OK thanks for the info. I will read up on the mods for the naks. I just read 26 pages on a m10 post...pretty cool website!

Shinn

[OOK]

You should have no problem going NAK300 XLR to a single 1/8' stereo plug.  I had a cable made from markertek that is a 15' pair of r angle xlr's to a 1/8'stereo male.  My Naks go to the mic input on a R09HR without any issue.  I see no reason you couldn't do the same with a PCM-10.  My understanding the mic pre on the PCM-10 are better than the R09HR.  I hear no noise or hiss on any of my recordings.  The ambient noise we experience in the feild at concerts is much higher than anything in the signal chain.

OOK

[Roger Gustavsson]

Found some specifications on Sony PCM M-10

Mic Input (Stereo Mini Jack):
Input impedance: 22 kOhm
Rated input level: 2.5 mV
Minimum input level: 0.9 mV

Nakamichi CM-300 will have up to 15 mV on its output on a loud show (right up a rockband without PA-system). If the data of the M-10 is correct, it will overload the mic input. You can use the pad inside the CM-300 for loud shows. If you are some distance away from the stage it is probably not a problem.

Here are more information, http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm

The noise floor is low (-122 dBu) for the M-10 but the overload level is too low at high gain settings. Dynamic range is limited to just 65 dB at maximum gain... Maybe a lower gain setting will help to increase the dynamic range by some some dB?

Roland R-09R seems to offer a better possible dynamic range. Nakamichi CM-300 and Olympus LS-11 seems to make a good combo.




Roger

[SHINN]

Hmmm...so the cm300's voltage is to high and the m10 doesn't have that great of a dynamic range? I guess I'll do some experimenting when I get the M10. I think the M10 has a mic attenuator too, or would that be going in the wrong direction?

Long as I'm ready when Scofield comes on the 21st ..haha

[runonce]

Hmmm...so the cm300's voltage is to high and the m10 doesn't have that great of a dynamic range? I guess I'll do some experimenting when I get the M10. I think the M10 has a mic attenuator too, or would that be going in the wrong direction?

Long as I'm ready when Scofield comes on the 21st ..haha

I'll say it.

IT WILL WORK!

Use the attenuator on the recorder and have a good time!

OtheroneK has it right.

Naks have a very low output - chances of overloading is low.

[sunjan]

Hmmm...so the cm300's voltage is to high and the m10 doesn't have that great of a dynamic range?

Like runonce said, there shouldn't be any problems with overloading, and the signal will most likely not be too hot, probably the opposite.

Two unknowns in this equation:
Are the Naks stock or modded?
How are you powering them? Like Roger has proven earlier, stock Naks benefit from 7.2V-9V batteries, which will improve their SPL handling (use the search).

[SHINN]

The Naks are stock. I'm using a rigged up battery. It's a stack of 1.5Volt battery's but I think the voltage is the same as stock. Pretty sure it's whats inside of the stock battery anyway. Actually I haven't seen my nak mics in years. I need to get them back from a friend.

I was thinking of doing some mods my self, and maybe cutting the mics down.  My soldering skills are good and I have access to microscopes and stuff at work for doing small stuff. I only know very basic electronics stuff though. 

Really just need some thing small that can handle high spl, even one mic would problably be good for now. I don't know if stereo matters that much if your right in front of the PA speakers?

I'll probably end up getting some Church mics or something anyway. Just thinking since I have the Naks I can play around with them.

Thanks for the input

[Gutbucket]

Down the road I would like to get something like the DPA 4061's and run without a BB or preamp if possible. I used to have a Sennheiser mic that looked like the DPA 4060 and it worked good with the plug in power on my D3 (for quiet shows). I only had one and haven't been able to find it tho.  Does anyone know if the 4061's or 4060's can be run off the M10 plug in power?

If you want to run the DPA miniature omnis but avoid using a battery box or preamp providing 5-9V PIP, take a look at the low voltage version of the 4061, I think it's the 4063.  It is specifically designed to run at a lower PIP voltage.

[SHINN]

Thanks! I didn't know about those.

I want to franken mod my naks and use a really small battery. Does anyone know if the capsule on the naks ever needs to be taken apart for cleaning? I was looking at mine under magnification and there was all kinds of debris in the mesh. 

I should probably be on the team nak thread.

[runonce]

Thanks! I didn't know about those.

I want to franken mod my naks and use a really small battery. Does anyone know if the capsule on the naks ever needs to be taken apart for cleaning? I was looking at mine under magnification and there was all kinds of debris in the mesh. 

I should probably be on the team nak thread.

I've seen some of the little black nylon mesh behind the screens - basically - dissolve and turn to dust.

[Roger Gustavsson]

Scott Wurcer's dissection of a Primo capsule, same as used by Nakamichi. http://tinyurl.com/347zjpj
Scott are doing several things with these capsules. I like his Chargeamp, a low noise integrated amplifier that allows direct connection to a recorder.

Roger

[sunjan]

"Document Not Found"

I guess it's restricted to Micbuilders group members...

[fmaderjr]

Really just need some thing small that can handle high spl, even one mic would problably be good for now. I don't know if stereo matters that much if your right in front of the PA speakers?

Unless you are somehow so near the speaker and the music is so loud that all room ambiance is drowned out by the music (and I don't even know if this is possible), stereo mics will sound noticeably better. Having the room ambiance & crowd noises in stereo makes the recording sound more natural.

[Roger Gustavsson]

"Document Not Found"

I guess it's restricted to Micbuilders group members...

Try this, http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=0&pos=0

Roger

[SHINN]

I guess your right about stereo being a lot better. My reasoning was one really good sounding mike would be better then two crappy ones for a stealthy set up. Then maybe some stereo reverb or something could be added later.

Back to chopping the naks...does anyone ever need the low cut switch on the mics, or is it better to equalize the bass if needed? I'm pretty sure the low cut is never needed when using the cardio caps, but was wondering about with the omnis?

[jbell]

I never found not having the low cut a problem when I had chopped Naks.

I guess your right about stereo being a lot better. My reasoning was one really good sounding mike would be better then two crappy ones for a stealthy set up. Then maybe some stereo reverb or something could be added later.

Back to chopping the naks...does anyone ever need the low cut switch on the mics, or is it better to equalize the bass if needed? I'm pretty sure the low cut is never needed when using the cardio caps, but was wondering about with the omnis?

[Roger Gustavsson]

I have never done a recording via a PA system. Normal recording with the cardiod capsules, CP-1, sounds a bit thin - no need for low cut! Here some measurements:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133105.0;attach=98034

http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133105.0;attach=98035

An omni measures flat in the bass, I think the method used is not very accurate. A cardiod have a distance dependent frequency response. The CP-1 is flat at perhaps 30-50 cm, further away it is more like in the document. My recordings of acoustic intruments always calls for some equalizing, a bass lift.

You can hear the difference between the various capsules here, http://www.coutant.org/nakamich/index.html


Roger