Topic: question about DPA mics

[pfife]

Is there any way to set up a set of DPA (prolly 4061's?) mics so that you can either run them into the mps box, or plug them into phantom power if you wanted to?

Just looking at the dpa sonic sense site, and the DAD6001 - is that a part that can be added to a lemo plug to allow the mic to be powered by phantom power from the preamp?  If I take the DAD6001 off, the mps box then takes lemo inputs?

thanks in advance for clarifying for me! 

[pfife]

nevermind- a bit more research, and I think I've found my answer... feel free to comment on any related experience you have though!   

[Brian Skalinder]

nevermind- a bit more research, and I think I've found my answer.

Soooo...what'd you find out?

[pfife]

nevermind- a bit more research, and I think I've found my answer.

Soooo...what'd you find out?

The MPS6010 can be used to power the mics w/o phantom power, or if you have phantom power hooked up to it, the mics are then powered by phantom power and not the MPS6010... so at that point, the MPS6010 must 1) decrease the volts going to the mics and 2) act as an adaptor from microdot to xlr

this is my newfangled understanding.

Edit:  Maybe this link will describe better, if I am not making sense here:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/module.php?MID=101&itemid=MPS6010&PID=&function=pdescription

[macdaddy]

what is the difference between using the MPS6010 and the core-sound batt box (you might have to scroll up a bit)..? is the only difference the connection..?

[jk labs]

what is the difference between using the MPS6010 and the core-sound batt box (you might have to scroll up a bit)..? is the only difference the connection..?

The MPS 6010 powers the mics (terminated in microdots) from an internal 9 Volts or external phantom (if available). The signal is output on the XLRs.
 
Other MPS60x0 units exist. They lack the XLR ports and do not offer the phantom powering option. 

The Core Sound bb powers the DPAs from an internal 9V. The connector used for both input and output is as shown in picture on CS website. Ouput is on a male 1/8" ... 

Jon   

 

[macdaddy]

what is the difference between using the MPS6010 and the core-sound batt box (you might have to scroll up a bit)..? is the only difference the connection..?

The MPS 6010 powers the mics (terminated in microdots) from an internal 9 Volts or external phantom (if available). The signal is output on the XLRs.
 
Other MPS60x0 units exist. They lack the XLR ports and do not offer the phantom powering option. 

The Core Sound bb powers the DPAs from an internal 9V. The connector used for both input and output is as shown in picture on CS website. Ouput is on a male 1/8" ... 

Jon   

 

i still do not understand how one 9v power option is different from another, or the difference between phantom power and power. that is really what i guess i am asking about...

for the record, leegeddy modified my HEBs so that audio technica cables come out of that miniXLR and terminate in two canare RCA male connectors...

[pfife]

I've been kinda wondering the same thing, because from what I've heard, with the DPA mics, +48 would be trimmed down to like +5v or +6v...

I was originally inquiring becuase I have a UA-5, and I'd like to be able to still use it for the W-Mod and its A/D whenever possible...

[leegeddy]

>>i still do not understand how one 9v power option is different from another.

i'm sure jon (jklabs) can go into much more technical details so i'll give you the poorman's version

battery power option:  

the supply voltage to power the condenser mic AND the audio signal is carried along the same conductor. hence, you ONLY need 2 conductors per each miic (+ and ground).  for example, take a pair of SP CMC-# or CSB/CSC that terminates into a 3.5mm mini plug.  stereo mini plug has 3 and only 3 terminals: Tip, Ring, Sleeve.  Audio/Supply voltage for the Right mic is connected to the Ring (remember...Right > Ring). Audio/Supply voltage for the Left mic is connected to the Tip. Ground is common for both mics.

3 terminal power option:

the supply voltage and the audio signal are on independent conductors. therefor, you need 3 conductors per mic. (5 for stereo, since ground can be common).  Pin assignments are: Audio is carried along Pin2, supply voltage is on Pin3 and ground is Pin1.

i believe it's safe to say that the latter powering option is the proper way to power condenser mics; however, mic capsule/electronics designs have to be taken into account. i'm sure jklabs can provide the engineering behind the application.

marc

[pfife]

alright, I am completely ignorant on such matters- but would this result in a difference in sound?

[jk labs]

what is the difference between using the MPS6010 and the core-sound batt box (you might have to scroll up a bit)..? is the only difference the connection..?

The MPS 6010 powers the mics (terminated in microdots) from an internal 9 Volts or external phantom (if available). The signal is output on the XLRs.
 
Other MPS60x0 units exist. They lack the XLR ports and do not offer the phantom powering option. 

The Core Sound bb powers the DPAs from an internal 9V. The connector used for both input and output is as shown in picture on CS website. Ouput is on a male 1/8" ... 

Jon   

 

i still do not understand how one 9v power option is different from another, or the difference between phantom power and power. that is really what i guess i am asking about...

for the record, leegeddy modified my HEBs so that audio technica cables come out of that miniXLR and terminate in two canare RCA male connectors...

Dual power option? Well, the schematic for the MPS6010 is even in the archives I think. Or at least it's close to the actual circuit. The AKG C1000 uses a similar approach as do others.  

Basically you drop the phantom voltage from 48 down to 9 Volts (by way of resistor(s) and/or active devices). This voltage is fed to a supply capacitor & on to the internal 9 volts rail from which the mics draw their power. Then you wire the battery up to the same rail through a diode (one way valve so to speak). The diode has an internal loss of 0.6 volts or so.

That's all. As long as P48 is present the rail is at 9 Volts and the battery just sleeps.

Remove the phantom power and current will flow from the internal battery, through the diode and bring the power rail up to V_battery minus 0.6 Volts (8.4 volts for a fresh 9 Volts). I.e, now we're running on battery power. (Note. The XLR *output* pins must be expected to be floating at the same DC potential as the internal power rail.)

Jon

[jk labs]

alright, I am completely ignorant on such matters- but would this result in a difference in sound?

On the issue of powering... The electronics only care about volts and current. So at that level any powering scheme delivering the right voltage and sufficient current is optimal for the job at hand.
So any *general* statement claiming one power scheme is better than another is just plain wrong.

But then you come down to specific makes of microphones. Now the different options in power sources available might result in *different* voltages and these might not be equal in willingness to deliver current when the mic wants it. Now differences in sound is possible.

What Marc is discussing, if I read him correctly  , is the different ways of wiring some microphones.
Often these different ways are described as running with a "9 volts battery box" and "phantom mod powering".  Here huge differences in linearity and max SPL exist.  But as Marc says, this really has to do with the wiring. (And secondarily, how far down the interface takes the 48 volts.. I'll argue that the 9 Volts battery holds the edge in some cases).

To bring this back to the original topic (not sure just which mics we are discussing above): the DPA mics are a little special. They are very forgiving of  f.ex differences in the voltage available.

Jon

[macdaddy]

for example, take a pair of SP CMC-# or CSB/CSC that terminates into a 3.5mm mini plug.

so hopw come they are different...?

"The HEB microphones require a bias voltage. The HEB "battery box" contains a nine volt battery, associated electronics (top quality metallized polypropylene capacitors hand matched to 1%, and 1% metal film resistors) and a high reliability, locking, US-made, multi-pin jack. The battery box is roughly half the size of a cigarette pack, made of sturdy die cast aluminum, and is finished in a durable black crinkle finish. The battery lasts approximately 300 hours and should be replaced at least once a year. The output to the recorder is an 1/8-inch (3.5mm) mini stereo phone plug; other connectors (e.g., XLR, RCA, 1/4-inch Phone) can be supplied upon request.

Due to different voltage requirements, the HEB battery box is not compatible with the battery box used with the Core Sound Binaural or Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid microphones."

[macdaddy]

for example, take a pair of SP CMC-# or CSB/CSC that terminates into a 3.5mm mini plug.

so hopw come they are different...?

"The HEB microphones require a bias voltage. The HEB "battery box" contains a nine volt battery, associated electronics (top quality metallized polypropylene capacitors hand matched to 1%, and 1% metal film resistors) and a high reliability, locking, US-made, multi-pin jack. The battery box is roughly half the size of a cigarette pack, made of sturdy die cast aluminum, and is finished in a durable black crinkle finish. The battery lasts approximately 300 hours and should be replaced at least once a year. The output to the recorder is an 1/8-inch (3.5mm) mini stereo phone plug; other connectors (e.g., XLR, RCA, 1/4-inch Phone) can be supplied upon request.

Due to different voltage requirements, the HEB battery box is not compatible with the battery box used with the Core Sound Binaural or Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid microphones."

Well, the principle behind these electret mics are almost always the same. That's why one can with some justice discuss powering mics in general terms. But when you discuss individual mics they do have their needs. Or they benefit from some tweaking of the parts values.   

As for the quote... well it sure sounds better than saying there are slight differences in the part values used (funny thing is the voltage is not one of them  ).

 

i am more confused now than i was before, but i guess all that matters for me is that leegeddy understands the differences correctly, since he was the one who modded the cables for me. I would hate to have the things start smoking by my ears when i go to use them on friday

[leegeddy]

for example, take a pair of SP CMC-# or CSB/CSC that terminates into a 3.5mm mini plug.

so hopw come they are different...?

"The HEB microphones require a bias voltage. The HEB "battery box" contains a nine volt battery, associated electronics (top quality metallized polypropylene capacitors hand matched to 1%, and 1% metal film resistors) and a high reliability, locking, US-made, multi-pin jack. The battery box is roughly half the size of a cigarette pack, made of sturdy die cast aluminum, and is finished in a durable black crinkle finish. The battery lasts approximately 300 hours and should be replaced at least once a year. The output to the recorder is an 1/8-inch (3.5mm) mini stereo phone plug; other connectors (e.g., XLR, RCA, 1/4-inch Phone) can be supplied upon request.

Due to different voltage requirements, the HEB battery box is not compatible with the battery box used with the Core Sound Binaural or Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid microphones."

Well, the principle behind these electret mics are almost always the same. That's why one can with some justice discuss powering mics in general terms. But when you discuss individual mics they do have their needs. Or they benefit from some tweaking of the parts values.   

As for the quote... well it sure sounds better than saying there are slight differences in the part values used (funny thing is the voltage is not one of them  ).

 

i am more confused now than i was before, but i guess all that matters for me is that leegeddy understands the differences correctly, since he was the one who modded the cables for me. I would hate to have the things start smoking by my ears when i go to use them on friday

macdaddy;

you should have no worries. all i did was just simply replace the 1/8" mini with R & L RCA. technically no "mod" to the signal path was done. just a simple replacement.

marc

[macdaddy]

thanks marc - i wasn't so much worried as i was curious...

thanks again!

[pfife]

any of you electrical current wizards know if I have an MPS6010 box, will I need an attenuator between that and an AD-20?

thanks for sharing your expertise... (+ts)

[Sean Gallemore]

i dunno, if this has been mentioned, but you can run the DPAs from a Sound Pro Battery Box, cheaper than an MPS.

[shaggy]

Oade has a neat little DIY for a bass roll off on his thread:

http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/Forum/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=275&mode=full&page=

Scroll down a bit, I ask Doug about the Cap values and slope of the cut....

Sorry Jon, it was such handy information that I had to spread the love.  I hope this doesn't bite into your modMPS biz.

ANDY

[KingReptile]

Whatcha mean slope of the cut