Topic: Opinions on live DVDs from tapers

[Sloan Simpson]

OK, I'm learning quickly in my DVD adventures.  I've got a couple shows that are going to be too long for standard DVD-R unless I do the audio in AC3 (and even then I think I'd still have to lower the video bitrate somewhat).  All the video-oriented sites say AC3 is fine, and to never use PCM because of space.  But I know us tapers can be a different breed 

You guys think it would be better to format for a dual-layer DVD, or convert the audio to AC3?  This is primarily for things that will be seeded (I've got a couple that only the musicians themselves will be interested in, so I'm gonna dual-layer those, figuring it'll be easier for the musician to not lose half of it).

Trying to make the largest number of people happy and minimize complaints.

Oh, one more: when making menus and there's an unknown song title, should I guess, leave it blank, put "unknown", put "" or what?

Thanks y'all

[dmaster]

I think you'll piss more people off with forcing them to use rather expensive dual layer discs, than you would by using AC3 for audio.  (assuming these people would even have dual layer discs, which I'd figure by the price of them still, most people don't). 

people are gonna complain no matter what you do, but I'd still go for the one that'll at least "work" for most people.  AC3 isn't really that bad of compression and I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the end anyway. 

[Elvis Hitler]

Whenever I don't know a song title, I just leave it off the menu, but I do insert a track marker before the song so the viewer can still skip to it if he wants.   I'd rather do that than have question marks on the scene selection menu.

And I've rendered the audio to AC3 on every DVD I've produced.  Never heard anyone complain, but if they did I'd just tell them not to watch it.

[Sloan Simpson]

Good points, thanks!  Off to AC3 land I go 

[sabre]

I'd go with AC3 as well. Just use the maximum bitrate (ie. 448 kbit/sec) for AC3. Almost every commerical music DVD that is released compresses the audio (either AC3 or DTS).  Make sure you use a licensed AC3 encoder and not the free "Besweet" codec. 
I use the Mainconcept AC3 codec that comes with Sony Vegas / DVD Architect. Set the "Dialog Normalisation' to "-31 dB" otherwise your audio levels will be too low.

I would avoid using dual layered discs. Firstly, they can be a pain to author and their reliability are still questionable. Plus, if you seed a dual layered disc (DVD9) you're going to have to answer a bunch of questions from all the newbies who don't know how to burn it properly. Somebody will then suggest using DVDShrink to compress your fabulous looking DVD9 onto a single layered DVD5 which will totally defeat the purpose of using a DVD9...

If your show won't fit onto 1 disc (ie. greater than 65 to 70 minutes) then split the show onto two discs.

Here's a cool bitrate calculator:
http://dvd-hq.info/Calculator.html

As long as your average video bitrate is around 8000 kbit/sec then compression artifacts will be kept at a minimum. If you use VBR encoding (2 or 3 passes) then it will look even better.

What encoder are you using?

Re: the track listing on the menu. Personally, I would prefer that each track be listed on the menu. Put a number in front of each song, and if you don't know the name of the track then just leave the name blank. That way the user can select the track by navigating to the number.

[bigwurock]

i always also use ac-3...i like to keep the video quality higher..i like to see the dvd in better quality...i really can't hear the difference between AC-3 and PCM....keep it at 48 for audio and use a bitrate calculator to figure out what you need....i useually take off an extra 100 for meunues ect...i only use 2 menues pages..main page and credit page...i also really never use a setlist menue page..i track it all and put a play button on the main menue...but everyone has their own way to make dvds...i like the dvd9 but they are too high yet IMO..and people will shrink them anyways....

[Sloan Simpson]

What's bad about BeSweet (other than the silly name  )?  A friend recommended that I use it . . . I'm using Cinema Craft to encode . . .

[guitard]

Even for somewhat obscure music - if you do some hunting around on the internet - you can usually find the song titles.  This is assuming that the music has lyrics though - if it's an instrumental song, you're probably screwed.

Just type in the name on the band in Google, followed by a snippet of the lyrics.  Do it in this fashion:  "beatles" "singing in the dead of night"

By using the quotation marks, only results with this exact string of words will be returned.

Regarding the DVD itself - I'd recommend against a dual-layer disk.  Either a single layer disk w/ .ac3 audio, or two single layer disks with PCM audio.

[sabre]

What's bad about BeSweet (other than the silly name  )?  A friend recommended that I use it . . .

BeSweet isn't a licenced Dolby Digital encoder and doesn't produce 100% compliant AC3 streams. With most DVD players it isn't a problem but can cause issues with some players.

[Sloan Simpson]

Even for somewhat obscure music - if you do some hunting around on the internet - you can usually find the song titles.  This is assuming that the music has lyrics though - if it's an instrumental song, you're probably screwed.

Just type in the name on the band in Google, followed by a snippet of the lyrics.  Do it in this fashion:  "beatles" "singing in the dead of night"

Most of the artists I'm doing are way too under the radar to have their lyrics posted.  Actually a lot of it is unrecorded.  It's a case where I could -eventually- ask the artist, but it would be a major pain, and seriously hold up my production

[Sloan Simpson]

What's bad about BeSweet (other than the silly name  )?  A friend recommended that I use it . . .

BeSweet isn't a licenced Dolby Digital encoder and doesn't produce 100% compliant AC3 streams. With most DVD players it isn't a problem but can cause issues with some players.

Aha, thanks.  I'll look for a different way to do it.

[Elvis Hitler]

If the artist is "under the radar" as you stated, it shouldn't be that much of a hassle to contact them about getting the set list.   I've done it before -- just sent them a CD copy of the show, tracked out, and asked for the song titles.    They were more than happy to fill in all of the blanks I needed, and thanked me for taking the time and effort to produce a DVD of their live show.   If the band you taped won't even take the time to let you know a few song titles, do you really want to go to the trouble of producing a DVD for them?

[Sloan Simpson]

If the artist is "under the radar" as you stated, it shouldn't be that much of a hassle to contact them about getting the set list.   I've done it before -- just sent them a CD copy of the show, tracked out, and asked for the song titles.    They were more than happy to fill in all of the blanks I needed, and thanked me for taking the time and effort to produce a DVD of their live show.   If the band you taped won't even take the time to let you know a few song titles, do you really want to go to the trouble of producing a DVD for them?

It's kinda difficult to explain, but this particular musician is kind of a slacker, as am I    I don't have phone or email contact for him, and we're in different cities.  I get there (Athens, GA, I'm in Atlanta) about once a week, so I'd have to deliver it in person, hope he doesn't lose it, hope he watches/listens to it, and then hope he remembers next time he sees me in a few weeks.  And when I -do- see him, he's usually bartending, so all the above is pretty unlikely.  Plus it's not actually for him, it's for me; I don't think he really cares one way or another.

Mainly, it's tying up about 80GB that I'd really like back sooner rather than later.  Once I get some other projects off my plate I can always just re-author the menu if I were to come up with the titles.

[firmdragon]

If the artist is "under the radar" as you stated, it shouldn't be that much of a hassle to contact them about getting the set list.   I've done it before -- just sent them a CD copy of the show, tracked out, and asked for the song titles.    They were more than happy to fill in all of the blanks I needed, and thanked me for taking the time and effort to produce a DVD of their live show.   If the band you taped won't even take the time to let you know a few song titles, do you really want to go to the trouble of producing a DVD for them?

i've actually once did a track by track description and had the artist tell me the setlist from there.

track 1:
first words are "blah blah blah blah"
track 2:
chorus is "you are blah lblah blha"

i'd also go w/ the ac3.  it's a video.  the video is top priority.  audio we just don't want distorted. 

[saltman]

Just another opinion.  I prefer the PCM over AC3 because I CAN tell a huge difference.  The max bitrate most DVD players can play is 8000 so...  8000+1536 for LPCM is still under the 9800 or 10.08Mb/s threshold for DVDs with some room for a menu.  If 8000 bitrate is too high based on the length of your video I would go to the dual layers.  I buy mine for 1.50 a disc, and my work is worth it.  The DV tape it was recorded with was three times that, anyway.  Maybe you could split it onto 3 DVD5s instead of 2 DVD9s.  I do that a lot also.  I typically try to avoid DVD9s if I can....  but IMO ac3 is not the way to do that.

On menus I try to make them as small as possible in terms of filesize.  I do this by carefully sizing images, not using entire music tracks in the menus, and limiting the number of menus.  I also compress the menus as much as possible to preserve the space for the video.

[guitard]

If 8000 bitrate is too high based on the length of your video I would go to the dual layers.

If you source a DVD from a mini-DV tape, you'd be very hard pressed to tell the difference between an 8Kb ABR and a 6Kb ABR.  I also like PCM audio, so I usually adjust the video's ABR accordingly so that I can fit the PCM audio on the disk.  So putting a 60-70 minute show with PCM on one disk will look just fine.

[jhirte]

If the artist is "under the radar" as you stated, it shouldn't be that much of a hassle to contact them about getting the set list.   I've done it before -- just sent them a CD copy of the show, tracked out, and asked for the song titles.    They were more than happy to fill in all of the blanks I needed, and thanked me for taking the time and effort to produce a DVD of their live show.   If the band you taped won't even take the time to let you know a few song titles, do you really want to go to the trouble of producing a DVD for them?

i've actually once did a track by track description and had the artist tell me the setlist from there.

track 1:
first words are "blah blah blah blah"
track 2:
chorus is "you are blah lblah blha"

i'd also go w/ the ac3.  it's a video.  the video is top priority.  audio we just don't want distorted. 

dont forget snagging a setlist after the show is always an option... assuming you can get to it before someone else!

[guitard]

dont forget snagging a setlist after the show is always an option... assuming you can get to it before someone else!

Another option - I've gone to the soundboard before the show and asked the soundman if he'd take a quick snapshot of the setlist with me digital camera.  They almost always oblige.

[janka]

I always use PCM audio on my DVD's.  Being that they are music dvd's why sacrafice on audio quality ? I encode with the highest video bit-rate too. I master everything to be 1 hour per dvd. If  the whole show is slightly over an hour,  up to 10min, I will encode the video down to 7Mbs if needed. With the time it takes to transfer, sync, make menu's and render why bother lowering quality. I'd rather trade snail-mail for quality then download less then the best.

I feel things encoded with low video bit-rates and ac3 audio will only cause people to re-master them in the future. Just like all the VCD's of a few years ago.

[tbrown4]

I guess I will chime in here....

I recently authored a full show using PCM on a DL disc. I could have used 2 single layers and kept the audio PCM, so I guess this is more of a discussion on "to DL" or "not to DL"...

My thoughts are that eventually costs of these DL blanks will come down just as single layers did.  More and more people are eventually going to author in DL format. Why not start now?

Just my $.02

[momule]

I guess I will chime in here....

I recently authored a full show using PCM on a DL disc. I could have used 2 single layers and kept the audio PCM, so I guess this is more of a discussion on "to DL" or "not to DL"...

My thoughts are that eventually costs of these DL blanks will come down just as single layers did.  More and more people are eventually going to author in DL format. Why not start now?

Just my $.02

My understanding is that Alot of DVD players can't play them.  I personally don't see dual layer being all that reliable in the long run with how the disc's are burned. Seem pretty flaky to me

I'd Vote for the AC3.  I honestly Believe if done correctly your not gonna hear much of a difference in PCM and AC3.  Let alone when talking about an AUD (ambiance) tape.

Oh and I would stay away from The BeSweet crap.