Topic: Church Audio [newbie] Gear Questions

[bhakti]

hey everyone 

i just received the CA st-11's, omni's and a the 9100 preamp and what to know as much about them before I use them in the field? I used the search function, and did learn some great info about these pieces of gear, but have a few questions unanswered [from what I found].

firstly, i have the croakie setup and have never really done any audience recordings before. i read about phasing, and have a pretty good idea about what to do with these mics with regards to that, but wanted to know about placement [with and without the croakies]... bear in mind i will be stealthing... can someone explain XY, DIN, ORFT etc...? no idea about any of that except i know what XY is... i presume none of these setups are possible when croaking with the croakies? how do people find the croakie setup? i will be running the mics and pre into my Edirol R-09. also wanted to know how far the cards must stick out of the croakie material? just the very front must show or must the sides of the mics also pop out a bit...?

also, when should i use the omni's over the cards and vice versa? big theatres with the omni's and clubs with the cards or the other way...? just doing a quick test earlier, the omni's seemed a little chintzy on the top end... that common? what would happen if I used an omni on the left and the cards on the right? that do-able?

with regards to the preamp, is it better to use the gain control from that side and put the Edirol R-09 level up full...? in other words, is there a recommended setting between the 9100 and the Edirol?

thanks guys... please excuse the newb here and the 101 questions, but any help is really appreciated... +T in advance....
i look forward to hearing from you guys out here in the wonderful world of TS.com

Bhakti

[jmz93]

I have some of the same questions, even though I'm using AT853's with the Church Audio preamp.  After switching from omni's (CSB's) to cards, I'm finding out quickly that correct spacing and angling is important, but have no idea how to go about this in a stealth situation.. 
I've pulled some great tapes so far, but feel this has been more by chance than anything. The AT's are heavy enough that they pull down my shirt collar, or other things I clip them to, wrecking my spacing and angling attempts.  I would almost consider going back to small omni's or smaller cards (if they exist) than the AT853's, just to make things simpler again!

Any tips on stealthing with the 853's greatfully received, in private mail of course.

Ok what I can help yu with though, is setting the preamp and the R-09.  Basically, you want the most dynamic range available, the highest signal to noise ratio.  So, running the preap into the R-09's line in jack, set the R-09 levels conservatively, try 13 for a start, other people say 8, and turn the preamp all the way up.  That gives you the most gain from the preamp and the least noise from the R-09 itself.  For louder situations, engage the 4.7K mod switch if your preamp has it, or turn the gain knob down some. 

The loudest situation I've been in was seeing Rush indoors, directly in line with the PA. I backed the preamp gain off until the knob was pointing straight up; let's call that the 12:00 position.  For jazz, even amplified jazz with lots of horns, I still run it wide open, engaging the sensitivity switch when I need a little less gain.

Also, remember that getting things recorded as hot as possible is a lot less of an issue when you're recording in 24-bit, because you have lots more theoretical dynamic range to play with.  If it turns out after you record, that your loudest peak is -10DB, you can boost this easily enough through software.  It's not like the 16-bit days where you wanted to be as close to 0DB as possible, to begin with.

Chris

[bhakti]

huge thanks man... got a waaaay better idea how to run the pre now...
so keep the levels low on the Edirol and give full loving to the 9100... perfect... will try that out this week at a gig or two i hope...
also thanks for the info about the 24bit headroom story... think i get you... so if i can always record 24bit 48kHz as well?
24 bit equals dynamics and 48kHz equals frequency response right? sorta? 
thanks again chris...

any other help on the other questions VERY appreciated...  cool guys...

[rastasean]

bhakti,...
have you read the dpa mic university site pages?
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/

With cards, you're dealing with stereo patterns that are either coincident XY (meaning the sound signal arrives at the left and right mic simultaneously), or, near-coincident ORTF DIN DIN-A NOS (meaning the signal arrival timing is different at each mic).
You can hear these signal timing differences, as you learn to critically listen to the resutls of your recordings.

XY is coincident arrival, and is essentially having the mics arranged with the capsules directly on top of each other, with one 45º right, and the other 45º
XY is best represented from above as ^ with the signal arriving at the point of the ^ at exactly the same moment in time - coincidental timing. Your signal intensity diffferences are only resulting from the axis angles of each mic.

Near-coincident is more like \___/ with distance between the left and right capsule adding signal arrival time differentials, near-coincidental timing, due to the distance between the mics, and, signal intensity differneces from the axis angling.

Most of your omni techniques utilize near-coincidental timing, baffling, and to a far less degree, axis angling, to achieve signal intensity, and timing differences.

This is great info! Who would have ever thought mic arrangements can make a difference for recordings? even the littlest difference can make it sound great to bad.
Thanks for this!

[bhakti]

huge thanks moke... i think i understand most of that... so which pattern is better? or perhaps which is better to use in which kind of situation?

unfortunately with the croakie set-up its pretty much a straight on parallel setup... is that okay too?

thanks again man... you're the chronic... 

[bhakti]

HUGE thanks once again guys 
Really appreciate this awesome community helping a newb taper out... hope to pull a smoking tape soon...

thanks again for the all the info about the mic placement moke... i've done quite a bit of studio work and now how key it is and how much difference millimeters make...

anyways, could anyone assist in the cards/omni's mix...? one card on the st-11 and another omni combo...? i wonder how it will sound... good or bad idea.... i also figured that if one's better than the other, i could just make a mono recording of that mic...

thanks again guys... i look forward to giving this a bash sometime soon...

[bhakti]

anyone? 

[Church-Audio]

anyone? 

It will sound like ass.

Omni capsules are good when you have really good acoustics and your pretty close to what you want to record and the crowd noise is not to bad. Cardioid capsules are good when the acoustics are no so good and you need a more directional pickup. When your using croakies what you are looking at is basically what your going to pickup more so with cardioid's. But when your using omni croakie mount mics your going to pick up chatter beside you and a nice big bubble of sound in front of you. When your using omni mics you want to place them closer to your ears. When your using cardioid's you want to move them closer to the front of your glasses.

I hope that helps.

[bhakti]

huge thanks Chris.... makes loads of sense.... will keep that in mind....

[Church-Audio]

huge thanks Chris.... makes loads of sense.... will keep that in mind....

The other thing you have to realize is.. There are no fast and set rules... You should go to some shows that dont matter as much. Then try different things. And see what you like. My omni mics are pretty dam flat to 20k my cardioids are pretty flat to 18k so in some situations you might like the omni mics over the cards. My omni also have a more extended bottom end.

Good luck and when you find one you like over the other tell us.. So that other users can hopefully learn from your experimentation.

Chris

[bhakti]

thanks again chris... i know... practice practice practice... will do...

apart from the comparison of mixing the omni's and the cards sounding like a backside, is there explanation or other reason why it sounds shit...? i thought maybe, it could be okay... almost like mixing two sources...?

so i guess 80% of the time i should stick with the CA cards?

thanks guys... +T Chris...
G.