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Author Topic: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)  (Read 24724 times)

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Offline acidjack

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Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« on: December 04, 2010, 12:05:02 PM »
I am curious why more folks on TS.com don't seem to be experimenting with ambisonic mics like the Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic lines.

It would seem that they literally do exactly what we usually want - "record the room" - but then allow you to mix down, through software, down to virtually any pattern.  I realize some of the Soundfield mics are very expensive (the top of the line one being $6000 and requiring an extra piece of gear), but this software-based one, the SPS200, doesn't require a big piece of gear to be lugged around and seems to price out at $2700- far from cheap, but about the same as some used Schoeps, Neumanns or DPAs and much less than new ones.  I know people have their issues with Core as well, but that mic is only $1000 including the software.

I listened to some samples on the LMA from a couple of tapers down south and was pretty amazed by the spaciousness of these recordings.  Definitely a very different feel to say, a stereo pair of hypers.  I find the recordings very enjoyable to listen to - they feel very "natural" to me.

Soundfield SPS200:
http://www.archive.org/details/amt2010-04-11.stereo.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/moe2010-03-13sps200  (this one is not as good; sounds like a boomy, echo-y venue)
http://www.archive.org/details/um2010-02-11sps200.flac.16
http://www.archive.org/details/phood2010-03-13 (decoded m/s and really nice)

Coresound Tetramic (jazz)
http://www.archive.org/details/BostonHorns2010-04-02.tetramic.flac16

Coresound Tetramic (rock)
http://www.archive.org/details/moonalice2010-03-28.tetramic.flac16

So, I assume there is a catch.  For one, there is obviously more software work involved.  I am also guessing that by nature, since the thing has mics aimed all over, it picks up a lot of chatter, so you end decoding back to hyper or something anyway a lot of the time.  I'm curious if you do so, whether the software eliminates the information that you don't want (i.e., a chatter-y channel from a mic aimed down at the crowd).   It also seems like from Soundfield's site that these are more commonly used for film rather than music.  But then, a lot of the mics we use are really designed for relatively up-close studio use, and not what we are doing, also.

I'm also curious whether placement is a difficulty - could you run one of these from a balcony just as easily as regular mics?  I tend to think so, since again, the software can presumably reject unwanted information... but I am curious.

Anyway, I would be curious to hear the opinions of those who have used these.  It seems, in theory, to be a lot easier and more versatile to just carry one mic around rather than two or even four typical SDCs.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 01:43:15 PM by acidjack »
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2010, 02:56:08 PM »
I've seriously considered the Core-Sound TetraMic solution.  All in all, it was too costly at the time, since it would have been a 2nd system only:

$      |  Description
---------------------------------------------------
  999  |  TetraMic
   65  |  6-pin extension cable, 20'
   85  |  6-pin > (4) 3-pin mini-XLR breakout cable
  240  |  (4) PPA2 phantom power adapters
   75  |  Windscreen + dead-rat
   15  |  Shipping
===================================================
1,479  |  Total


All assuming I already had a 4-ch recorder.  I wanted to maintain my main mics for running near-coincident or spaced configurations, and the TetraMic system simply proved too costly (for me) as a 2nd mic system.  There are too many instances in which I really want time-difference stereo, not just intensity-difference stereo...hence the need for 2 systems if running the TetraMic.

If I didn't care so much about -- i.e. really, really like -- time-difference stereo in such a broad array of recording scenarios, if I was happy running coincident configurations most of the time, I'd jump on a TetraMic in a heartbeat to give it a try and see what it could do.
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Offline scb

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2010, 04:07:29 PM »
1st reason why I never even considered a soundfield:  it's HUGE

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2010, 04:32:33 PM »
I might be interested in the Ambisonic mic, but I wonder about the quality of the capsules.  For all our (tapers') obsessions with expensive mics, should be take a step backward and get lower quality (*) capsules?

(*) Coresound appears to use something similar to Church Audio, or maybe Audix, capsules.  Either way, I don't expect them to be as nice as something like Scheops, DPA, AKG, Neumann, Beyerdynamic, etc. that most tapers use.  Soundfield (appears) to use MBHO (sp?) capsules.  Those are better, but maybe not enough for the discriminating recordist.

I think these mics would be great for film and other applications.  They would also be great for studio recording, like acoustic/bluegrass, where you have a great room, but may want to adjust instruments' levels in post.  But for concert recording, it seems a good ORTF, HRTF, or XY pair, would do, depending on the taper's preference.

BTW, I may still hack an ambisonic rig (with AT853 or maybe Sennheiser MKE40 capsules) but that would be just for play, not for serious recording, especially not from the taperssection at the middle or back of a large show.

  Richard
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:43:34 PM by illconditioned »
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Offline burris

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 05:40:21 PM »
I love my ST350, which I have had for a while but I only recently got a multitrack.  Dunno about SPS200 or Tetramic but the ST350 is a very fine mic. My Neumanns have been relegated to spot duty.  The tetrahedral mics are superior to equivalent 1st order directional mics.  It's like having directional pressure transducers with zero off axis coloration.  Everything you love about subcards but with directionality, everything you love about hypers but without bass roll off.  Plus the imaging is outstanding, you can adjust the direct and reflected ratio by ear, do ambisonic playback, etc...

The reason they aren't used more is that people don't understand them and they haven't heard what they can do.  Most people understand being able to change patterns, like mid-side on steroids, but the mics are quite a bit more than that.

Someday in the not too distant future I'm going to setup a pentagonal planar playback array.

Offline burris

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2010, 05:55:38 PM »
oh and the ST350 is small and low profile, as is the SPS200.  It would be nice if the cable connector sticking out the bottom wasn't so big, it's almost as long as the mic, but its workable.  Don't forget that a tetrahedral array recording in b-format is less fussy to setup than two mics since you don't have to choose caps/pattern, or aim, adjust angle, screw with mounts, etc...  All you have to do is get it in the right spot.

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2010, 06:32:05 PM »
1st reason why I never even considered a soundfield:  it's HUGE

here's a pic with Dr FOB's Soundfield on a FOB tree and it's not big at all. Hardly any bigger around than a regular SD condenser and def not any longer than a AKG 460. Bigger at the top, of course, with the four capsules.

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Offline F0CKER

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2010, 07:38:41 AM »
I ran the ST350 for quite some time, although I did have issues powering it and had to work through SF to get them addressed - multiple times.  The short of it, the ST350 was great if you were close to the sound source, on stage, etc..but I never really loved the sound I got from it.  It sounded a little tinny at times, the low end suffered, and seemed to be less upfront than I would prefer.  If I were recording an orchestra, jazz, on stage, nature, or something else it would be a great choice.  For a high dB rock show, it's low on my list behind virtually every other set of mics I've run, Neumann, Schoeps, AKG, Milab.  Given I spent a ton of cash on it, I REALLY wanted to love it, especially given the options recording in B format, but I think there are better options for loud PA recording, which seems to be what many of us do the most. 
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2010, 10:20:02 AM »
1st reason why I never even considered a soundfield:  it's HUGE

The SPS 200 isn't - it's like an SDC with 4 heads at the top.

Offline acidjack

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2010, 11:28:34 AM »
I agree that if the capsules are of somewhat "lower quality" than Schoeps, DPA, etc. it is potentially an issue... but I guess I would be curious what others think of the particular samples I posted.  They are all, except IMO the moe. recording, pretty great examples.   I would be more worried about the quality of Core's version than Soundfield's, I think.

Focker's comment about the mic only being good for close up an onstage is interesting, as that is kind of what I thought might be the case.  Though again, of these samples, I don't think all of them are onstage.  The moe. recording that I liked the least is clearly not. 

I am curious how mixing it down to "hyper" works... The caps are obviously pointing the way they are pointing. Let's say you have two idiots standing under your stand and the bottom-facing caps pick up a ton of those idiots.  If you mix this down to "hyper" does it somehow magically remove the idiots by rejecting the information that a hyper pointed normally *would* have rejected?  If so, that is pretty fascinating to me technologically - and also quite useful. I think many times we use hypers not because we prefer the sound, but just because we want the other qualities - rejection of off-axis noise, etc.  Having the choice would really be powerful. 

I might be interested in the Ambisonic mic, but I wonder about the quality of the capsules.  For all our (tapers') obsessions with expensive mics, should be take a step backward and get lower quality (*) capsules?

(*) Coresound appears to use something similar to Church Audio, or maybe Audix, capsules.  Either way, I don't expect them to be as nice as something like Scheops, DPA, AKG, Neumann, Beyerdynamic, etc. that most tapers use.  Soundfield (appears) to use MBHO (sp?) capsules.  Those are better, but maybe not enough for the discriminating recordist.

I think these mics would be great for film and other applications.  They would also be great for studio recording, like acoustic/bluegrass, where you have a great room, but may want to adjust instruments' levels in post.  But for concert recording, it seems a good ORTF, HRTF, or XY pair, would do, depending on the taper's preference.

BTW, I may still hack an ambisonic rig (with AT853 or maybe Sennheiser MKE40 capsules) but that would be just for play, not for serious recording, especially not from the taperssection at the middle or back of a large show.

  Richard
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Offline martin.leese

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2010, 01:46:31 PM »
...
I am curious how mixing it down to "hyper" works... The caps are obviously pointing the way they are pointing. Let's say you have two idiots standing under your stand and the bottom-facing caps pick up a ton of those idiots.  If you mix this down to "hyper" does it somehow magically remove the idiots by rejecting the information that a hyper pointed normally *would* have rejected?  If so, that is pretty fascinating to me technologically - and also quite useful. I think many times we use hypers not because we prefer the sound, but just because we want the other qualities - rejection of off-axis noise, etc.  Having the choice would really be powerful. 

The way it works is conceptually easy (but, as with lots of technology, the details are not).  The outputs from the four capsules, called "A-Format", are first mixed to "B-Format".  B-Format can be thought of as an omni + three figure-of-eights pointing forward, left, and up.  If you have two figure-of-eights crossed at 90 degrees then you can rotate their responses.  With three, as described above, you can point them any which way.  And you can do this in post production.  The final bit is easy; a hyper is just the weighted sum of an omni response + a figure-of-eight response.

This means that from B-Format you can synthesize any number of hypers pointing in any direction.  And you are not limited to hypers.  By changing the weights between the omni and figure-of-eight responses, you can synthesize any response: Omni, sub, cardioid, hyper, figure-of-eight.  In fact, you can synthesize all coincident mic techniques.  And, providing you recorded the four B-Format channels, you can do it in post production.

If you want to play around, but do not have a soundfield mic, there are over 200 pieces in B-Format available for free download from http://www.sursound.com/.  B-Format can also be decoded to surround sound, and any of the pieces can also be downloaded as a DTS image that is pre-decoded for four speakers in a square.  Ad-hoc Ambisonic decoders are available for other speaker layouts (including full-sphere).

Regards,
Martin
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 01:54:54 PM by martin.leese »

Offline burris

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2010, 01:54:35 PM »
I am curious how mixing it down to "hyper" works... The caps are obviously pointing the way they are pointing. Let's say you have two idiots standing under your stand and the bottom-facing caps pick up a ton of those idiots.  If you mix this down to "hyper" does it somehow magically remove the idiots by rejecting the information that a hyper pointed normally *would* have rejected?  If so, that is pretty fascinating to me technologically - and also quite useful. I think many times we use hypers not because we prefer the sound, but just because we want the other qualities - rejection of off-axis noise, etc.  Having the choice would really be powerful. 

Martin covered this while I was posting, but the practical effect is you can choose the pattern, angle, and direction of your mics.  Tilt them back to face the PA or point the nulls at the audience, rotate to get perfect balance, adjust the direct/reflected ratio, etc...  Try downloading some b-format recordings from Ambisonia and get the AmbisonicStudio plugins and mess around with them.

The other thing is the b-format can be decoded into any surround format, including 3-d arrays that reproduce the soundfield where the mic was placed (room echos excepted...)

Finally, it's not just for SoundField and Core-Sound mics.  If you have two figure-8 mics and a pressure omni you can arrange them in "native b-format" which only lacks height information.  So you can rotate but not tilt the mics, and you can decode to regular surround setups.  Schoeps, of course, even makes a special mount for native b-format or double-ms (which can also be decoded to planar b-format.)   http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/native_b.html

Offline martin.leese

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2010, 02:07:10 PM »
Forgot to mention, in addition to the mics from SoundField Limited and Core Sound LLC already mentioned, Oktava also makes a soundfield mic.  Visit http://www.oktavausa.com/ProductsPages/Ambient4DMic.html.  Finally, people have built their own tetrahedral arrays, visit http://www.ambisonia.com/wiki/index.php/Microphones#Home_made_tetrahedrons.

Regards,
Martin

Offline leddy

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2010, 11:33:47 PM »
I have a Tetramic, as well as some decent other mics (Sennheiser, Beyer, Oktava, Avenson).

My experience with it is this:  It can really sound good.  Like, spooky realism.  But...it is going to have some of the same limitations of any coincident pair.  You cannot just place it anywhere and expect to fix it all in post.  Coincident cardioids usually don't sound very spacious, so it usually needs to be decoded to something between hypers and Blumlein to reach its potential.  As such, the distance to the source is important.  You have to try to keep the source in the 90-degree recording angle as if you were using Blumlein.  Too close gives you wierd image problems, and too far gives you too much reverb.  Yes, you can fix that in post - but the further you are from proper placement usually requires fixing that by dialing out more of the rear lobes that provide the spacious sound.  You will be left with something closer to coincident cardioids.  Most of us would prefer near-coincident cards to that, I'm sure. 

In sum - think of it as a flexible Blumlein or hyper pair that lets you tweak it in post.  If you are in a situation where you would never use Blumlein or coincident hypers, you would not like an ambisonic mic either.  If you dig Blumlein or coincident hypers and know how to use them, this mic will make you very happy.  You will have much more margin of error with this than with a pair of fig. 8's or hypers.  Just not as much as with near-coincident cards.  But if it's right, it will sound way better than near-coincident cards.  Make sense?

With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.  You will need to make no excuses. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 11:53:49 PM by leddy »
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Offline gkatz

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2010, 11:51:28 PM »
is it correct to assume a mic like this would be great at concert with a quadraphonic system? like the pink floyd one http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140793.0

then playback on the same type of system, wow that would be cool.

Offline martin.leese

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 12:33:50 AM »
is it correct to assume a mic like this would be great at concert with a quadraphonic system? like the pink floyd one http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140793.0

then playback on the same type of system, wow that would be cool.

Assuming you recorded B-Format, playback would be on an Ambisonic system.  The page on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonics, is a good place to start.

Offline F0CKER

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 04:56:42 AM »
I have a Tetramic, as well as some decent other mics (Sennheiser, Beyer, Oktava, Avenson).

My experience with it is this:  It can really sound good.  Like, spooky realism.  But...it is going to have some of the same limitations of any coincident pair.  You cannot just place it anywhere and expect to fix it all in post.  Coincident cardioids usually don't sound very spacious, so it usually needs to be decoded to something between hypers and Blumlein to reach its potential.  As such, the distance to the source is important.  You have to try to keep the source in the 90-degree recording angle as if you were using Blumlein.  Too close gives you wierd image problems, and too far gives you too much reverb.  Yes, you can fix that in post - but the further you are from proper placement usually requires fixing that by dialing out more of the rear lobes that provide the spacious sound.  You will be left with something closer to coincident cardioids.  Most of us would prefer near-coincident cards to that, I'm sure. 

In sum - think of it as a flexible Blumlein or hyper pair that lets you tweak it in post.  If you are in a situation where you would never use Blumlein or coincident hypers, you would not like an ambisonic mic either.  If you dig Blumlein or coincident hypers and know how to use them, this mic will make you very happy.  You will have much more margin of error with this than with a pair of fig. 8's or hypers.  Just not as much as with near-coincident cards.  But if it's right, it will sound way better than near-coincident cards.  Make sense?

With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.  You will need to make no excuses.

Agreed.  I would say that when run Blumlein, close to the source, I've not heard anything sound as natural as the ST350. 
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Offline burris

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 09:27:45 AM »
As such, the distance to the source is important.  With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.
Isn't this the case any time one uses microphones?

Offline leddy

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2010, 10:04:34 AM »
As such, the distance to the source is important.  With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.
Isn't this the case any time one uses microphones?

I do not believe all mics will sound equally as good as one another even in their best placement.  The question I was answering was to the effect of: does the Tetramic have the potential to sound as good as other pro mics, or will it sound like a lesser-quality mic.  Also, to dispel the possible notion some might have that an ambisonic mic can be placed anywhere and still sound good because it can be adjusted in post.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:07:38 AM by leddy »
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2010, 11:05:11 AM »
Thank you for those very good points.   Your thoughts confirmed more or less what I had kind of suspected- that these can be incredible if used in an ideal spot (true of any mic) and give you more options depending what spot you're in.  It sounds like if you do a majority of upfront or close work, it's a great solution, and you can always run from somewhere else and decode back to hyper or something... BUT if you are normally in, say, the back of rooms, taper sections, etc., using one of these and decoding to hyper is kind of a waste - you would achieve better sound buying HQ hypers and running them in one of the more typical spaced configs like DINa or DIN. 

All that said, it is still a very intriguing option. 

Have you ever had the opportunity to compare the Tetramic to, say, the SPS200?
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 12:11:06 PM »
I agree that if the capsules are of somewhat "lower quality" than Schoeps, DPA, etc. it is potentially an issue...

My understanding is that Soundfield capsules would be equal in quality to Schoeps.  I understand they are made by MBHO in Germany for them (the same people that make the capsules fro Brauner).

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 12:36:20 PM »
I agree that if the capsules are of somewhat "lower quality" than Schoeps, DPA, etc. it is potentially an issue...

My understanding is that Soundfield capsules would be equal in quality to Schoeps.  I understand they are made by MBHO in Germany for them (the same people that make the capsules fro Brauner).
MBHO are different than Schoeps, right?  Nothing wrong with them, but they are a different capsule.  I was also more concerned about the Coresound capsules than the MBHO.  Who makes the Coresound capsules?


My main point was that if you don't need adjustable patterns, you could always buy a pair of MBHO, Neumann, Scheops, etc.


The OP above mentioned Blumlein.  This is one case where i think the Soundfield shines.  It is probably cheaper to get a Soundfield than a pair of Fig 8 mics, and it is adjustable too...


  Richard



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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 01:35:09 PM »
I have a Tetramic, as well as some decent other mics (Sennheiser, Beyer, Oktava, Avenson).

My experience with it is this:  It can really sound good.  Like, spooky realism.  But...it is going to have some of the same limitations of any coincident pair.  You cannot just place it anywhere and expect to fix it all in post.  Coincident cardioids usually don't sound very spacious, so it usually needs to be decoded to something between hypers and Blumlein to reach its potential.  As such, the distance to the source is important.  You have to try to keep the source in the 90-degree recording angle as if you were using Blumlein.  Too close gives you wierd image problems, and too far gives you too much reverb.  Yes, you can fix that in post - but the further you are from proper placement usually requires fixing that by dialing out more of the rear lobes that provide the spacious sound.  You will be left with something closer to coincident cardioids.  Most of us would prefer near-coincident cards to that, I'm sure. 

In sum - think of it as a flexible Blumlein or hyper pair that lets you tweak it in post.  If you are in a situation where you would never use Blumlein or coincident hypers, you would not like an ambisonic mic either.  If you dig Blumlein or coincident hypers and know how to use them, this mic will make you very happy.  You will have much more margin of error with this than with a pair of fig. 8's or hypers.  Just not as much as with near-coincident cards.  But if it's right, it will sound way better than near-coincident cards.  Make sense?

With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.  You will need to make no excuses.

I also have a Tetramic and this description is spot on.  I hesitate to say anything else but I will, simply in an attempt to help fully explain what its real world values are for me, and also what it isn’t.  Now it seems I've typed way too much..


First the ‘in the field side’-

Like leddy, I find it useful to think of it primarily as a very good, compact, coincident hyper/blumlien pair with fine-tuning.  If a coincident hyper or bumlein pair works for the situation, then this mic can do the job very well.  Both the Tetramic and it's associated cabling (mini-xlr based) is amazingly small, lightweight and compact.  With the foam windscreen on it looks like a simple single point stereo mic with one thin mic cable.  It is pretty discrete appearing.. a visual sleeper.  It is very easy to use when recording, and hides the complexity of decoding and file management until after you get home. I’ve configured it for my girlfriend and she has taken it to a show without me and run it without any problems. She simply clamped to a rail, attached the mic with its single cable, powered up the recorder and rolled.  Microphone location is as important as ever, but pointing it accurately is not at all, since that can be completely adjusted for later.  Pretty simple to setup one mic and cable, then press record.

Understand that I’m primarily a spaced/baffled omni guy and like time-based information, especially in my surround recordings.  The limitation to coincident patterns is a pretty big constraint for me, and the primary constraint of any ambisonic mic.  If and when I can, I often try to run additional spaced omni outriggers, but if the situation is perfect for Blumlein, they aren’t really needed. I think this thing would work quite nicely with the Tascam DR-680 now that the most recent firmware apparently allows linking of input gain controls, but also because of the possibility of running an additional pair of spaced mics, synced on the same recorder. 
 
I’m running it into an R-44 which powers the mic via four phantom powering adaptors.  The need for the bulk of the phantom adapters in the recording bag, the additional steps to assure matching channel gains on the R-44 and the post processing are somewhat of a PITA, but if the quality of the recording is more important to you than making those extra efforts, that may be a worthwhile tradeoff.  It is for me. Honestly it’s amazing that the rig is as small as it is, but still, I’d really like to be able to ditch the phantom adapters.


The ‘back at home side’-

Much is said about the decoding and virtual mic aspects of an ambsonic recording system.  I’m focusing solely on stereo playback here.  I have yet to explore the surround decoding options (it’s decodable to standard 5.1, 7.1, etc. type configurations, as well as true 3-D ambisonic playback systems which I and most others have never seen or heard), even though I do significant surround recording using other, time based mic arrays.  I’ll explain why that is some other time if anyone is interested.

For stereo, I think it helps to think of this as simply a more tweakable Mid/Side technique, like a more advanced mid/side plugin.  Like Mid/Side, there is usually a relatively small range of settings where things actually sound best.  That usually means hypercardioid/fig-8’ish patterns, plus making slight adjustments to mic angle, rotation and elevation.  Unlike standard stereo Mid/Side, the mic pattern and angle are independently adjustable, which helps in optimizing the settings, but again the key is dialing it in an optimizing it, rather than some ability to point a virtual mic of any 1st order pattern in any direction. Tweaking the overall mic rotation and elevation (point up toward stacks or more straight at stage from farther back, horizontal at floor level amps or up at the the musicians holding the instruments themselves from stagelip) is quite useful in that optimization as well.

The only gross-level adjustment that is really applicable for stereo is the rotation/elevation control. If there is a rather narrow practical range of settings for dialing in the specifics of the virtual stereo mic array itself, that array itself can be pointed in any direction at all. The first time I ran the mic I had it pointed 90 degrees to the side instead of ahead and simply rotated everything 90 degrees when decoding. As mentioned this is the exception to the ‘mostly useful for fine-tuning, but that fine-tuning is important ’ aspect of the thing.


Why I went with it-

I looked at it cost wise and usage wise similarly to Brian. His analysis is right on.
 
I record multichannel already, but I’ve been moving to more compact and easy to run rigs.  This is compact and very easy to run and I can use it in conjunction with my spaced techniques. I like the technical stuff, experimentation with different techniques, surround recording and options and it certainly fits those descriptions.  I like playing around with different ways of using my multi-channel recordings and don’t feel pressure to track and upload swiftly so the post work isn’t an issue for me. I’ve read a lot about ambisonics and this it a relatively inexpensive way of getting into it and exploring it.  I also feel like using this mic has helped deepen my real world understanding of  how 1st order microphones actually behave acoustically, as well as the limitations of coincident and spaced techniques.

I like the approach of using specific measurement corrections to match the capsules in each individual Tetramic and see that as one of the real technical strong points of the system, leveraging the use of software in addition to doing the A to B format conversion and specific stereo mic decoding.  I feel that helps offset many of the potential drawbacks of using less than premium grade mic capsules and may be an advantage of the Core approach over Soundfield’s in maxizing performance vs cost.

I talked with both Soundfield’s US reps and with Len at Core.  Soundfield couldn’t answer many of my questions or point me to anyone who could, they assured me they could order a mic from England, but that was about the extent of their support.  Len was quite helpful and went out of his way to get the mic to me very quickly before a recording opportunity.  I realize this might not reflect the experience of others here, but it’s my experience.

Why don’t more tapers use it? Compared to typical mid grade stereo rigs it’s not inexpensive, it’s conceptually complex and not well understood by most people, and it requires more post work.  Ambisonic mics are only available from a few manufacturers, and relatively afforable examples have only recently become available, plus it’s a bit of  a leading edge technology, even if it has a 35+ year history behind it.  For me it's a great way to explore my interests in sound and its reproduction as well as a simply being tool for making great recordings.
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Offline leddy

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 03:43:03 PM »
It sounds like if you do a majority of upfront or close work, it's a great solution

Just want to reiterate - In my experiences with the Tetramic, too close is no good either (like Blumlein).  Keep the recording angle around 90 degrees for optimal results.  You can often salvage recordings not done at the right distance, but you will not get the same satisfaction.
Jazz musician - String bass. 
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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 04:24:42 PM »
Wise and true words.  I'll note that there is always an exception to the rule.  The last few years over Thanksgiving I've recorded an annual family Monopoly game at my parent's house, to document family interaction as my nieces and nephew grow up.  This year I plopped the Tetramic down in the center of the board, recorded the game with players encircling the table, then let them each take turns with the headphones listening to portions of the Blumlein decode off my laptop.  Sounded great, even the direct sounds from the out of phase regions.. I haven't listened to it on speakers though, and actual soundstage accuracy wasn't important in this case, only good upfront clarity, a nice sense of space and a differing placement of each voice.  Not a typical music gig.

I recorded Bobby Lee Rodgers in a small room doing Coltrane in a jazz trio setting before Thanksgiving, essentially stage-lip directly in front of the band with the mic on a short stand beneath our table.  In that case the included angle from the mic's perspective was just under 90 degrees.  If there is interest, I might post a B-format sample for anyone interested in playing around with the stereo decoding using the available free B-format applications.. once I get the tracks sorted and the time to do it.  I might be able to also put up my spaced/baffled omni surround version up for comparison, or a stereo down-mix of it (or just the L/R pair) which is probably more practical.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline leddy

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2010, 04:48:14 PM »
Wise and true words.  I'll note that there is always an exception to the rule.  The last few years over Thanksgiving I've recorded an annual family Monopoly game at my parent's house, to document family interaction as my nieces and nephew grow up.  This year I plopped the Tetramic down in the center of the board, recorded the game with players encircling the table, then let them each take turns with the headphones listening to portions of the Blumlein decode off my laptop.  Sounded great, even the direct sounds from the out of phase regions.. I haven't listened to it on speakers though, and actual soundstage accuracy wasn't important in this case, only good upfront clarity, a nice sense of space and a differing placement of each voice.  Not a typical music gig.

I recorded Bobby Lee Rodgers in a small room doing Coltrane in a jazz trio setting before Thanksgiving, essentially stage-lip directly in front of the band with the mic on a short stand beneath our table.  In that case the included angle from the mic's perspective was just under 90 degrees.  If there is interest, I might post a B-format sample for anyone interested in playing around with the stereo decoding using the available free B-format applications.. once I get the tracks sorted and the time to do it.  I might be able to also put up my spaced/baffled omni surround version up for comparison, or a stereo down-mix of it (or just the L/R pair) which is probably more practical.

I would love to hear the b-format files.  I also love baffled omnis, so the comparison would be awesome.  I actually built a sphere mic I'm quite proud of when I need baffled omnis up close to the music. 
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Gear:  Edirol R44(2), Sytek Pres, Byer MC930's, Oktava MC012's, Avenson STO's, & Beyer M160/130's.

Offline linv5800

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 05:45:22 PM »
Since ive been here , Ive learned a valuble , valuble lesson .
I have a ton to learn . Im just greatful that theres a place
like this to wet my appitite .
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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 05:59:50 PM »
Since ive been here , Ive learned a valuble , valuble lesson .
I have a ton to learn . Im just greatful that theres a place
like this to wet my appitite .


12 years later I still havn't scratched the surface... 

As far as this ambisonics stuff goes, i really like the concept.  I have been using a M/S stereo mic recently (AT4050ST).  The biggest problem with M/S is that the polar pattern is linked to width.  As you narrow the image the mic become more cardioid in polar pattern.  Thats counterproductive for many of the sources I record.  An ambisonic mic would give me controll of all of those variables in post.  I've been looking at picking up a single AT4050 to run double M/S, that seems fairly similar to this ambisonic stuff... 

Cool thread!
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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2010, 09:36:15 AM »
Rubbin' elbows with the tuxedo clad & defining an entire category along with Aspen, eh?
 ;D

Quote
SoundField Opera Houses and Concert Halls Using the SoundField Microphones
Opera/Concert Halls/Orchestras/Live Music

Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, London, UK
London Symphony Orchestra at LSO St Luke's, London, UK (MKV)
Sage Gateshead, Newcastle, UK
Concertgebouw, Brugge, Belgium
Athens Concert Hall, Athens, Greece
Gothenborg Opera, Gothenborg, Sweden
Finnish National Opera, Helsinki, Finland
Palais des beaux arts, Brussels, Belgium
Royal Exchange Theatre, Manchester, UK
Turku City Theatre, Turku, Finland
Glyndebourne Opera House, U
The Royal Opera House, Stockholm, Sweden
Opera de Paris (Opera Garnier) Paris, France
Aspen Music Festival, Colorado, USA
Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra, USA (SPS422B)
Gran Teatre Del Liceu Opera House, Barcelona, Spain (ST350)
La Scala Opera House, Milan, Italy (DSF-2)
Team Dirty South Tapers, USA (ST250, SPS200 x 2)
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline ducktaper

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2010, 11:04:44 AM »
after 2 decades of plowing through mic brands, the only way i'd get rid of my SF is to get another SF. Place mic and hit record, when I get home I mix. Bloom'n...if I dont like it, MS...if I dont like, hypers at 110º...if I dont like it...and so on. I have used it onstage, fob and back of the room situations. Any thought for use as a marital aid will get you slapped.

The caps are MBHO subcards but not the same used by MBHO. They are tweeked for SF but I could not get more info than that.

One mic, one cable, one recorder, one clamp...done.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2010, 03:43:29 PM »
^^ I think it was one of your recordings that prompted me to start this thread, actually.  Great work. 

One question: From my reading, I thought the SPS200 does NOT require a computer or anything else to be brought into the field, correct?  That is, my impression is it's just as you said: mic>cable>4xXLRs>R-44 > then go home, load up the 4xWAVs into the software, and go nuts.  Is that right?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2010, 04:59:12 PM »
Correct.

The output of the SPS200 & Tetramic is simply recorded in it's raw 4-channel form (called A-format).  All signal processing needed to produce usable formats (standardised ambisonic 'B-format', decoded stereo feeds, various surround formats) is done later on the computer. 

This differs from all other Soundfield mics which include a dedicated processing box which converts the A-format feed from the mic to the standarized B-format immediately, before it is recorded.  Doing it that way requres that additional dedicated hardware, but allows for real-time use of the output on-site, as well as actual monitoring while recording.  Monitoring the A-format recorded from the SPS200 or Tetramic makes sense only to check levels and for good signal (ie: checking for hum, other interference, bad connections, etc).

[edit- that means that essentially, the SPS200 and Tetramic are designed specificly for field recording and archival type applications, vs other Soundfield mics with 'realtime output' that better fit the needs of recording studios and permanent concert halls installations.]
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:07:09 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline notlance

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2010, 09:25:33 PM »
Since ive been here , Ive learned a valuble , valuble lesson .
I have a ton to learn . Im just greatful that theres a place
like this to wet my appitite .


12 years later I still havn't scratched the surface... 

As far as this ambisonics stuff goes, i really like the concept.  I have been using a M/S stereo mic recently (AT4050ST).  The biggest problem with M/S is that the polar pattern is linked to width.  As you narrow the image the mic become more cardioid in polar pattern.  Thats counterproductive for many of the sources I record.  An ambisonic mic would give me controll of all of those variables in post.  I've been looking at picking up a single AT4050 to run double M/S, that seems fairly similar to this ambisonic stuff... 

Cool thread!

Yes, you can think of these mic configurations as a progression:

Mid/Side: Record two channels which allows you to vary the width in post, but changing the width also changes the virtual polar pattern.

Double M/S: Record three channels which allows you to vary the width in post with any virtual polar pattern.  However, you cannot virtually "aim" the mic.  You can, however, use this configuration to get surround sound information, as well as Blumlein.

4 cards @ 90 degrees: This configuration does not have a pithy name; maybe we could coin one.  Anyway, this 4 channel configuration allows you to decode any pattern stereo virtual mics pointed in any direction within a plane.  This is like Double M/S that can be rotated within a plane.

Ambisonics: Record four channels that allow you to have any pattern virtual stereo pair pointed in any direction.

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2010, 09:46:17 PM »
Wise and true words.  I'll note that there is always an exception to the rule.  The last few years over Thanksgiving I've recorded an annual family Monopoly game at my parent's house, to document family interaction as my nieces and nephew grow up.  This year I plopped the Tetramic down in the center of the board, recorded the game with players encircling the table, then let them each take turns with the headphones listening to portions of the Blumlein decode off my laptop.  Sounded great, even the direct sounds from the out of phase regions.. I haven't listened to it on speakers though, and actual soundstage accuracy wasn't important in this case, only good upfront clarity, a nice sense of space and a differing placement of each voice.  Not a typical music gig.

Well, I have used a Blumlein configuration like you describe to record a vocal jazz group.  There were 16 singers which I assigned 4 to a quadrant around a Blumlein pair.  They were told to stay in their quadrant.  As long as they did it sounded fantastic with a very nice stereo image, and all the singers could see and hear each other very well.  This works well with a Bluegrass band too.

Offline RichT

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2011, 01:41:59 PM »
This differs from all other Soundfield mics which include a dedicated processing box which converts the A-format feed from the mic to the standarized B-format immediately, before it is recorded.  Doing it that way requres that additional dedicated hardware, but allows for real-time use of the output on-site, as well as actual monitoring while recording.  Monitoring the A-format recorded from the SPS200 or Tetramic makes sense only to check levels and for good signal (ie: checking for hum, other interference, bad connections, etc).

I've been thinking about getting either of these mics since they've become available, but the monitoring issue is too big a stumbling block for me as there doesn't seem to be any mixer or recorder which'll decode A-format.  I've used the SPS422B system though and that's great (but big and mains powered).  An ST350 would be nice, but it's too expensive.

Lots of ambisonic stuff here, including 'Native B-format' recording (on AKG Blue line- 2x Fig 8 and 1x Omni), and using Zoom H2's
http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/

Offline martin.leese

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2011, 08:09:39 PM »
This differs from all other Soundfield mics which include a dedicated processing box which converts the A-format feed from the mic to the standarized B-format immediately, before it is recorded.  Doing it that way requres that additional dedicated hardware, but allows for real-time use of the output on-site, as well as actual monitoring while recording.  Monitoring the A-format recorded from the SPS200 or Tetramic makes sense only to check levels and for good signal (ie: checking for hum, other interference, bad connections, etc).

I've been thinking about getting either of these mics since they've become available, but the monitoring issue is too big a stumbling block for me as there doesn't seem to be any mixer or recorder which'll decode A-format.  I've used the SPS422B system though and that's great (but big and mains powered).  An ST350 would be nice, but it's too expensive.

These posts don't make any sense to me.  Of course you can do real time monitoring; any resonably modern laptop has more than enough power to do this.  And you are almost certainly going to need a laptop to record to anyway.  As for software to do this, here is what the Core Sound website at http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php says: 

Quote
For real-time processing you would use the VVTetraVST and VVMicVST VST plugins with your recording software. VVTetraVST performs A- to B-format transformation using the calibration data for your TetraMic. VVMicVST controls virtual microphone and playback configurations. On PCs, both plugins should work with any recording application that can use VST plugins (e.g., SONAR, AudioMulch, Bidule,Wavelab, Cakewalk, Cubase, Samplitude, Ableton Live, Reason, FL Studio, Sound Forge, Nuendo, REAPER).

Many TetraMic owners hang out on the sursound e-mailing list.  Ask there to hear how people who actually own a TetraMic (which I do not) perform monitoring.  To join the sursound list visit https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound.

Regards,
Martin

Offline live2496

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2011, 11:13:22 PM »
I believe that you could also use Soundfield's Surround Zone VST plugin to decode to stereo for listening.
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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2011, 06:50:38 AM »

These posts don't make any sense to me.  Of course you can do real time monitoring; any resonably modern laptop has more than enough power to do this.  And you are almost certainly going to need a laptop to record to anyway.  As for software to do this, here is what the Core Sound website at http://www.core-sound.com/TetraMic/1.php says: 


while any modern laptop would be able to use the plug-ins for real-time monitoring, I'd say that the part about needing a laptop to record is not true.  All you need is a 4 channel deck, and there are many 4-channel options these days.  Edirol R-44, Tascam DR-680, and Sound Devices 744, just to name a few.  Personally, I'd much rather take one of those decks out to record, rather than a laptop system.

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2011, 09:33:14 AM »
Could you also use decks synced together? Like two hd-p2s, for example..?
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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2011, 09:42:34 AM »
Could you also use decks synced together? Like two hd-p2s, for example..?

As long as the pre's are the same.  You'll have to calibrate them with a test tone first to make sure the gains are even on all of them (this goes for 4 channel decks and laptops too).  You'll have to share the same audio clock too (which can be done on the HD-P2) to make sure they're synced

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2011, 08:17:39 AM »
I've been thinking about getting either of these mics since they've become available, but the monitoring issue is too big a stumbling block for me as there doesn't seem to be any mixer or recorder which'll decode A-format.  I've used the SPS422B system though and that's great (but big and mains powered).  An ST350 would be nice, but it's too expensive.

I have the SPS200 - If you record on a computer, the Soundfield SurroundZone software will decode the A-format and enable you to monitor.

Personally, I record on a Nagra VI and link all four mic. pres. to a single control.  I monitor only front left and right capsules to give me an idea and then sort it out in the DAW, with the Soundfield SurroundZone plug-in, later.

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2011, 11:20:57 AM »
I don't record to a laptop.  I record the Tetramic output to an R-44.  Since that machine has no capability of locking-down or ganging the gain settings across all 4 channels, I set everything up before a gig, calibrating gain levels to a test-tone, then checking for good clean signal with the mic connected.  I covered details on that earlier in the thread.  At the gig, I can monitor each of the four channels individually to check for good signal, noise, etc., but not for stereo image and to a lesser extent frequency balance because those things require decoding using the calibration files specific to this particular mic.  That works fine for my use, however I would prefer a recorder that allows me to match and link gains such as John does with the Nagra.

If monitoring stereo image and frequency balance is critical to you then you will need to decode the live feed in real time.  As John mentions that can be done on a laptop with the SurroundZone software for the Soundfield.  As for the Tetramic, if I recall correctly, the stand-alone VVMic software software I use to decode the recordings later only accepts input from files, not a direct soundcard input feed and so may not be useable for live decoding and monitoring.  However, I belive the VST plugin version of the software (which I have not used) should work with any recording app that supports VST plugins, four channels of input and can route the outputs appropriately.  I may be mistaken, however. 

You would want to use the VV plugin instead of the Surround Zone with a Tetramic to take advantage of the individual configuration files specific to that particular mic.

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2011, 05:18:05 PM »
I've looked at these and thought about it, and I come to the conclusion "they are going to pick less of what I want, and more of what I don't want."   I'm not sure I'm correct, but that is what my engineering intuition tells me.   My only point of reference is running mid/side.  Sometimes with good success and sometimes not.

Let's say I walk up to a small stage and plan to record stage lip (Club d'Elf at the Stone Church in case anyone knows what I'm referring to).  I look ahead and there is a drum kit that is just a little too close for comfort.  There are guitars and/or bass amps either side of the drums, so it's kind of 45* left and right from straight ahead.  Later in the night a couple of drunken wookes will take up camp to the left and right of my mics.  My objective is to capture as much of those guitar amps as I can,  enough drums but not too much (too much being the problem here), and I don't want any of the drunken wookies to the left and right.


+----------------------back of stage--------------------+
|                                                       |
|                 +--------------------+                |
|                 |                    |                |
|                 |      drums         |                |
|  [guitar amp]   |                    |  [bass amp]    |
|                 +--------------------+                |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
+-------------------------- + --------------------------|
                         M/S mics   
   (wook)                                     (wook)   


It seems to me that, yes there is all this mathematical crap we can do, but fundamentally, I'm better pointing mics at what I want, rather than what I don't want.  I want those camps, I don't want too much drum and I don't want too much wook.  So why point the front of the lobe at those items I don't, and they have the guitar amps come in with off axis coloration?

Then going to the next extreme of pointing mics backwards at the wooks, I don't see how that can be beneficial at all.

One time I went to a Gov't Mule halloween show, and they were playing Pink Floyd stuff with actual surround sound channels in the back.  I wish I had run some other mics pointed backwards there... then I would have done a simple DTS5.1 mix with the front mics in the front and the back mics in the back.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2011, 06:26:53 PM »
Think of this simply as an advanced, single-point coincident stereo mic with additional adjustability.  You tune the mic pattern and angles in post to optimize the situation as best as you can given your mic placement, but you can't move the mic location and there is only so much directionality available with any first order mic pattern to begin with (omni thru cardioid thru fi-8).  One of the intersting things for me in playing with decoding Tetramic recordings has been getting a better experiential, 'seat-of-the-pants' feel for that range 1st order directionality, given the coincident restriction. 

Think about it- the 1st order pattern with maximum rejection to its rear is a cardioid, and to get stereo with a coincident array you need to angle the two patterns apart.  But the more you angle them, the more you compromise the rearward rejection.  So like most things, dialing in the best decode often entails a number of compromises.  I quickly started thinking about how nice it would be to actually have something like 3rd or 5th order capability.

Forget about the capsules that point to the back.  Or rather, think of all four capsules as either adding or subtracting sound as determined by the complex matrixing that the decoding software does to synthesize the virtual microphone patterns and angles.  In that light, the rear capsules are doing their job to reduce sound to the rear of the mic, if that's how you choose to decode it, given the limitations of 1st order, coincident microphone patterns.

IMO, The best solution for the specific scenario you describe above might be seperate cardioids facing more or less straight ahead to achieve maximum rejection of the crowd, but spaced apart like an A-B spaced omni setup, which would move each mic slightly away from the center of the drum kit and closer to the guitar and bass.   I often do that with 3 or 4 omnis across the stage and the proximity of each mic to the instument sources is enough to make the level of crowd noise acceptable as 'live ambience'.  However, that's a configuration that is unavailable with a single coincident mic, ambisonic or otherwise, and pretty much the same thing applies to any near-coincident setup as well.

I have a few Tetramic recordings of Bobby Lee Rodgers in a jazz trio setting that were made in exactly the layout you describe, same proportions and angles just minus the rowdy crowd members- guitar amp(s) to the left, drums center (unamplified), acoustic bass right (bass amped through two small monitors arranged farther back on either side of the drum kit).  The Tetramic was placed just-under/in-front-of our front-center high-top table about 4'-5' from the drums and about 18" to 30" above the floor depending on the recording date.  Once I get the recordings together and converted from A to B format, I'll work on a way to share both the stereo mix-down I arrived at as well as the B-format files with anyone here who is interested, so that you can play around with the decoding yourselves using any of the the available B-format plugins.

I've been intending to make something like this available, but it will take some time to get together.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 08:35:22 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2011, 08:03:41 PM »
^^^ Nice description.

Some additional points: 1) This is not for those who prefer non-coincident methods (spaced, or near coincident).  This is a personal decision, but I prefer to get stereo information from both intensity and phase information, hence the desire for non-coincident mics.  2) The quality of the recording depends on the capsules.  So, if you love the sound of Sheops or whatever, you may not be satisified with the capsules used in the Soundfield mic.

Questions: What are the "first order" patterns?  For example, can I get a highly directional pattern oriented in any direction or is it limited to hyper-sub- cardioid through figure-8 shapes?  How much actual distortion of the patterns do I get due to non-coincident placement of the capsules?

In my opinion these mics are probably best suited to ambient recording or film work.  Places where you may want to adjust the pattern in postprocessing.  Even then, a good sound guy with a shotgun mic may outperform them anyway.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2011, 10:39:46 PM »
^^^ Nice description.

Some additional points: 1) This is not for those who prefer non-coincident methods (spaced, or near coincident).  This is a personal decision, but I prefer to get stereo information from both intensity and phase information, hence the desire for non-coincident mics.  2) The quality of the recording depends on the capsules.  So, if you love the sound of Sheops or whatever, you may not be satisified with the capsules used in the Soundfield mic.

Thanks.  You're absolutely right about these being coincident only, but of course if you have the channels it can be combined with other mics.  I like to run spaced omnis with it, partly for my own comparison, partly because I also have favored the open, atmospheric 'sound' of spaced mics, and partly for the ability to play with combining the sources or routing them to different channels for surround at some point.

Yes, the ultimate quality of the recording depends on the capsules, but this is a slightly different and unusual case compared to most microphones.  In this case the quality of the capsules determines an upper limit to the capabilities of the mic, especially in noise level, clipping level, and distortion, and also in the hard to quantify subjective measures, but at least for the Tetramic, the unique measurement and post correction process that is specific to each individual capsule in each specific microphone, attempts to optimize the performance and minimize variations between capsules within that ultimate envelope of capsule potential. In doing so the system somewhat compensates for production variations and for general response irregularities of the specific capsules used. 

The system corrects for response irregularities which vary from the ideal response in a way somewhat analogous to playback 'room correction' devices that measure the response of a speaker, then create inverse filters that correct for phase and eq response irregularities in the sweet spot.  It can only correct so much though, within the ultimate limits of the capsule and the S/N ratio of the system, and can't correct for some things at all such as the dynamic range limits. Actually the Tetramic corrective system has a somewhat easier job to do than playback 'room correction' devices, because it is simply correcting and matching the anechoic on-axis response of each capsule.  Speaker/room correction devices correct for the sweet spot while sacrificing the response elsewhere in the room and people like to move around.

I don't have any first hand experience with speaker/room correction devices, but I did get to demo a room/stereo/surround virtualization technique for headphone monitoring a few years ago that actually makes for a far better analogy here, not only because you can't move out of the haedphone sweet spot.. I’ve posted about it here elsewhere, but briefly, it was also was a measurement based correction system that required calibration to be useful.  Calibration was done by placing miniature omni microphones in each ear canal and running sweep tones though all the various speakers in turn for a few different head rotation positions.  The response of the headphones coupled with my ears was also measured.  The dataset for that combined speaker/room/head-rotation/individual-ear-response and headphone/ear-response data was collected, manipulated and then convolved with whatever audio program I cared to hear.  The result was incredible- my brain was completely convinced that I was hearing actual speakers in the original room, even though I was listening through headphones.  Of course the ability of the system to make those corrections was ultimately constrained by reproduction limits of the headphones.  The system I tested used entry level Stax headphones and amp which the developer considered more than sufficient in response (combined with a seat shaking device).  The point I’m belaboring is that music through this sounded nothing like the Stax phones themselves. It sounded instead like the speakers and room where the measurements were made… as long as the phones were ‘good enough’.

The question then becomes, “what headphone (or what microphone capsule) is good enough to support the correction requirements?”, rather than, “what is the particular sonic signature of this headphone or microphone capsule and do I like it?”

The Tetramic is designed to a price point and the specifications of the capsule used constrains the system, but unlike standard mics, the system attempts to remove the unique sonic signature of the capsules themselves.

Quote
Questions: What are the "first order" patterns?  For example, can I get a highly directional pattern oriented in any direction or is it limited to hyper-sub- cardioid through figure-8 shapes?  How much actual distortion of the patterns do I get due to non-coincident placement of the capsules?

All 1st order patterns can be described as the sum of an omni and figure-eight response mixed with various levels: that means any pattern along the continuum from omnidirectinal, subcardioid, cardioid, hypercardioid and figure-8.  The theory relies on all the capsules being perfectly coincident.  The virtual patterns tend to be far more accurate than most all standard microphones at low and mid frequencies, but start to breakdown at high frequencies and get very odd shaped as the wavelengths of the frequency in question approaches the capsule spacing.  There are mathematical techniques that attempt to correct for the effects of the capsule spacing, but closer is better.  Luckily the capsules are typically close enough to push irregularities above about 10kHz or so (I think) into the region where the brain is less critical about imaging.

Quote
In my opinion these mics are probably best suited to ambient recording or film work.  Places where you may want to adjust the pattern in post-processing.  Even then, a good sound guy with a shotgun mic may outperform them anyway.
 

Yes, film/TV dialog guys will continue to use shotguns on booms. ‘Shotgun’ interference mics are a different animal that have greater directionality at mid and high frequencies than any 1st order pattern. I’d guess many ambient guys want the open, ambient sound of spaced techniques for many things, but I know film sound guys collect location sounds and effects with Soundfields.

However, the post-processing pattern adjustment is what makes these things particularly attractive for the type of recording we do where we must set-up quickly, often in less than ideal situations, with limited ability to monitor and re-adjust things before recording.

If a coincident technique is appropriate, an ambisonic mic leaves the most options open.
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Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2011, 12:47:48 PM »
If you take the average multipattern LD, they have the 2 diaphragms which adjust pattern by voltage to come up with a single output.  I noticed some new mic (at least new to my radar) recently which had the 2 diaphragms putting out 2 outputs, so you could decide in post if you want omni - card - figure 8 based on how you decide to sum them.  I thought " that's a great idea, why isn't that more common?!!"   I think that was either Senn or AT, but at any rate a pair of them was above my budget.  It shouldn't be that difficult I wouldn't think... double the electronics in the mic, but I would think someone like Busman could put out a 4 channel LSD2 sized mic with crossed double capsules at a reasonable price.  Probably it's not that simple in practice.

I also have 4 similar AT853's that I keep intending to make a mount with 4 coincident stacked caps at 90 degrees.  I obviously don't have the capsule correction curves, and the fancy plugins but it might be interesting none the less.... especially for those bluegrass bands that like to huddle around 1 mic.   When I mix mid/side in post, I don't use plugins... I duplicate and flip wave files and play with it that way, so I'm comfortable doing it "manually", and I think the same technique could apply to my "poor man's quadramic".
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »
If you take the average multipattern LD, they have the 2 diaphragms which adjust pattern by voltage to come up with a single output...

Not a new idea, and not anymore complex internally than a typical single output, multipattern dual diaphram mic (actually simpler since there is no pattern switch and matrixing circuitry).  It does require two preamp channels and matrixing of the two channels to generate patterns other than cardioid.  There are a number of manufacturers that currently make microphones of this type including Sennheiser, Milab or Pearl (I'd have to check which), Josephson, Sanken (I think), among others.

Neumann made a four channel LD quadraphonic mic in the 70's that had four individual capsules arranged at right angles and four discrete outputs.

Quote
I also have 4 similar AT853's that I keep intending to make a mount with 4 coincident stacked caps at 90 degrees... I think the same technique could apply to my "poor man's quadramic".

I know some mic DIY types have built their own mics like you mention.  You might do a serach to find out more about that.  That arrangement would be somewhat similar to the Schoeps double M/S approach in using individual compact mics to form a horizontal only, 2-dimentional array.  One difference between those horizontal layouts and ambisonic style mics is that the ambisonic mics have their capsules mounted 3-dimentionally- one on each face of a regular tetrahedron.  In that way, the capsules point up and down as well as front back and sideways so that they record height information as well, allowing the virtual mic patterns to be pointed up and down (and rotated or rolled around any horizontal axis) as well as turned right and left.  That's where the Tetramic gets it's name.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2011, 07:00:35 AM »
If you take the average multipattern LD, they have the 2 diaphragms which adjust pattern by voltage to come up with a single output.  I noticed some new mic (at least new to my radar) recently which had the 2 diaphragms putting out 2 outputs, so you could decide in post if you want omni - card - figure 8 based on how you decide to sum them.  I thought " that's a great idea, why isn't that more common?!!"   I think that was either Senn or AT, but at any rate a pair of them was above my budget.

It was the Sennheiser MKH 800 TWIN and it's available in Nickel or Nextel.



With one of these and a fig.8 you can do 5.0 surround with just three capsules.  :D


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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2011, 10:55:20 AM »
Thanks John, that's the one I was thinking of.  Two seperate capules facing opposite directions each with individual outputs that can be combined any way you choose.  The MKH 800 TWIN is somewhat unique in that it offers 'after the fact' pattern control, yet can not function as a stereo or surround mic on it's own.  But as you mention, with the addtion of another mic it will produce be used to generate virtual first order mic patterns in the 360 degree horizontal plane for single-point stereo or surround.

Here's some info on a couple others I mentioned.. interesting that all of these mics use a different capsule arrangement for a slightly different approach, but each in similar in having seperate outputs from their individual capsule elements.

The Neumann QM69 had four cardioid elements arranged at right angles, each with it's own individual output.  It was designed as an extension of the SM69 stereo microphone as quadraphonic mic. A good history and photos are here.  A small number of early versions had a double body which looks like it was designed by Gene Roddenberry-


The current Josephson I was thinking of is the C700S- a three capsule design with individual outputs that can be matrixed in multiple ways.  It features two figure eight capsules arranged at right angles like the mics mentioned above plus an omni, all in one housing.   The PDF datasheet explains the concept and the different ways the outputs can be combined very well.  This is basically a complete 'native-B format' microphone that can generate virtual first order mic patterns in the 360 degree horizontal plane, but it's flexibility allows it to be used for non-ambisonic applications as well. Photo below shows the C700A two capsule version (one 8 + omni), the 'S' version adds the second fig-8.


The Milab SRND360 is a also a three capsule microphone.  This one is different in that it uses 3 cardioid capsules arranged at even 120 degree angles in the horizontal plane.  Because of that the matrixing values different, but it works similarly for generating virtual mic patterns in the 360 degree horizontal plane I think.
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Offline aracu

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2011, 01:57:09 AM »
Personally, I record on a Nagra VI and link all four mic. pres. to a single control.  I monitor only front left and right capsules to give me an idea and then sort it out in the DAW, with the Soundfield SurroundZone plug-in, later.

Interesting... I was wondering how one would monitor the mic on location without having to convert  to B-format. Do you feel you able to get a good enough idea of mic positioning with this method of listening to the unprocessed front l.r. capsules, for critical music recordings?

I noticed there is very little info on the frequency response of the sps200. How would you
describe it or compare it to other capsules based on your experience?


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2011, 11:20:53 AM »
..Personally, I record on a Nagra VI and link all four mic. pres. to a single control.

I recently picked up a Tascam DR-680 primarily for use with the Tetramic.  The latest DR-680 firmware update which allows ganging channel controls is what drove my decision.  Very convenient to gang/link the first four channel gains for the Tetramic, and 5&6 seperately for omni outriggers or a SBD feed.  Besides the ability to quicky and evenly adjust gain across the entire 4 channel (or six channel) set as required in the field, the freedom from needing to match the trims on each channel using a signal generator and voltmeter along with making a safety recording of the test signal to each channel to allow for checking/correcting that gain match later on the computer is a great ease of use improvement over using the R-44 with this mic.

..This is not for those who prefer non-coincident methods (spaced, or near coincident).  This is a personal decision, but I prefer to get stereo information from both intensity and phase information, hence the desire for non-coincident mics..
..You're absolutely right about these being coincident only, but of course if you have the channels it can be combined with other mics.  I like to run spaced omnis with it, partly for my own comparison, partly because I also have favored the open, atmospheric 'sound' of spaced mics, and partly for the ability to play with combining the sources or routing them to different channels for surround at some point..

I ran the Tetra>DR-680 for the first time a couple weeks ago at Springfest (an Americana/Bluegrass festival on the Suwannee river) along with a SBD feed into channels 5&6 via a burried cable run back to the board.  That freed up the R-44 for spaced omnis.  Using miniature omnis on lightweight telescopic antennas which I've posted about here before, I was able to get something like a 2meter L/R base spacing for a 3 channel Decca tree setup plus a single rear surround channel.  All mics were fixed to a single, small stand (Manfrotto 007) with the Tetramic at the center, all 8 channels worth of mic cabling 'techflexed' into a single snake running from the top of the stand to my recording bag.  The small stand could quickly deployed or collapsed and the telescopic arms retracted/folded without detaching the cabling to the bag for easy portability.  That allowed me to not only setup and breakdown very quickly and easily move the rig between performance stages, but to quicky take advantage of good oportunities by moving the entire setup to the stage-lip for a few things.   At the ampitheater I could attach the small stand to a larger one I had permanently screwed into the ground at the sweet spot along with a couple folding chairs and the burried SBD feed.  It all worked out quite well. I'll post some photos later in my Oddball Mic Techniques thread if anyone is interested in seeing the rig.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 04:17:38 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2011, 11:43:18 AM »
..can I get a highly directional pattern oriented in any direction or is it limited to hyper-sub- cardioid through figure-8 shapes?

Live2496 recently posted a new thread about a very interesting B-format decoding plugin which apparently uses perceptual techniques to further optimize the directivity of virtual mic patterns well beyond the 1st order patterns of the pure mathmatical decoding approach for human listeners.   It also features an very helpful looking visual interface for displaying sound direction vectors and control of the virtual mic patterns.  The output is currently horizontal only or binaural encoded, though horizontal stereo or surround decodes are all most people are working with at this point.  I haven't tried the demo yet, but the information on the site and the video at the bottom of the page are quite intriguing.  It seems that these techniques may offer a way to achive results similar to higher-order ambisonics with a 1st order recording.  That essentially means forming virtual pickup patterns which are more highly directional than hyper/supercardioid or figure-8.  I found the portion of the demo video where it was used to isolate individual voices in a choir especially interesting.  It's a seemingy powerful and very interesting new approach to manipulating B-format files, if a rather costly plugin.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 04:26:01 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2011, 04:14:53 PM »
^^^ It sounds like you're in deep.  I just love that daddy long legs spaced-out omni recording rig you've got.  Spiders have multiple eyes, right?

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

Sample recordings at: http://www.soundmann.com.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2011, 04:37:07 PM »
Thanks, I've wondered a few times if I was going overy deep, but as long as it works, is manageable, doesn't encroach on the enjooyment of others, makes great recordings and I have a good time learning new approaches, I consider everything is OK. I really enjoy figuring out and building this stuff, especially when it works out well.

Maybe I should begin adding eyes to this eight eared spider for panoramic vision.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2011, 03:48:08 PM »
I'll post some photos later in my Oddball Mic Techniques thread if anyone is interested in seeing the rig.

I've posted some photos of the eight eared spider in the Oddball Mic Techniques thread-
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1864048#msg1864048

Link to the entire photo set on Flickr with descriptions on the individual photos-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41278426@N07/sets/72157626421689065/
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline live2496

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2011, 05:34:00 PM »
Nice setup! Are you going to be doing surround mixes or stereo? What software do you plan to use?
AEA R88MKII > SPL Crimson 3 > Tascam DA-3000

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2011, 07:03:50 PM »
Both, though my efforts so far are very recoding heavy and light on mixing/processing/playback.  Currently I can playback the non-Tetramic material in surround only by patching the multichannel recorder outputs to my playback system.  I mix to stereo if I need to pass the recording to others.  I don't have multichannel output from the computer I'm currently using, so for that I simply mix the multiple channels of spaced omni material to stereo in Samplitude.  Basically I can get far enough with playback to confirm that I'm going in the right direction with all this, and eventually hope to put significantly more time into the second half of the equation.  I can enjoy it at home for now so I'm satisfied.

For the Tetramic, I can play the A-format files at home directly off the computer by dialing in a stereo decode using VVMic.  If I need to do EQ work and track it I write that output to a file, import it into Samplitude and work on it like any stereo file.  I have not yet played with surround decodes from the Tetramic, other than checking how well stereo surround matrix decoding with Dolby PLIIx and DTS Neo6 works, which is a good mix check and often works nicely. 

I have not seriously tried combining the spaced omni surround material with the Tetramic other than a few mad scientist efforts where I did thngs like decoding the Tetramic to a Left/Right stereo feed off the computer and manually sync'd playback of Center and Surround omni channels from the recorder - or the reverse - spaced omnis to Left/Right/Surrounds and the Tetramic dialed in to a single virtual mic to try messing around with pointing and focusing the Center channel.

Now that I have additional channels on the DR-680 and can lock clock to the R-44, I'm starting to generate more material that doesn't require stretching to sync, so I'm somewhat closer to mixing things up more freely.  Mostly I just need to dedicate a lot more time to doing that part.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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