Topic: Upgrade from Edirol R1/SP BMC-2

[nzo]

Hi all,

a piece of advice is wanted...

I currently use an Edirol R-1 with Sound Professionals BMC-2 (and no battery
box, I'm using the power from the R-1).  I mainly record vocals and classical
music, i.e. high sound pressure levels are very rare.  I'm typically recording
44.1 khz in 24 bits per sample mode.

The recordings I've been doing sound fine, however I would not mind to
improve my setup.  Size is important though, I'd like to keep something
easily portable.  Not that I'm not sure how exactly I could improve the
sound; that is, until I hear something much better.

From what I understand, a battery box really helps in high SPL environment,
which is not my case.  I was planning to upgrade the microphones, and I've
read good things about the Church Audio CA-11 model.

What do you think ?  I'd like to keep my R-1 and upgrade the microphones
(though I got an intuition that once microphones are updated, the R-1 might
show his limits...  and I might get caught in the upgrade bug.)  Would
something like the new R-09HR give much better results (considering that
usually the recording conditions are not perfect...) ?

Any advice is much appreciated, thanks for your help,

[sunjan]

First question:
which shortcomings do you feel are most evident when listening to your current recordings?

As you mention, acoustic and vocals are typically lower SPL, how much gain do you add while recording with the R-1? In that case, adding an external mic preamp (CA 9100) and/or switching to the R09HR would probably help. With a preamp, you'd also be able to go line-in on the R09HR, which is more quiet.

Do you want to stick to binaurals, or would you benefit from adding cards to your current rig?
Are your recording situations always stealth/body mount, or would they allow open mics + stand?

[nzo]

Thanks for your reply.

I think the most obvious thing I'd like to decrease the noise floor.

However, this could come from several places:
- ambiant (audience) noise, though in classical concerts, it's usually pretty quiet,
- noise from the microphone electrets
- noise from Edirol R-1 preamp
- noise from Edirol R-1

Now it's not easy to quantify this, esp. without buying/comparing.
The edirol R-1 was given to me and I experienced with it, but reading some
reviews it seems to me it was supposed to be quiet, i.e. not adding too much
noise.  Not sure if this applied to the R-1 preamp too though.
Would the R9-HR be so much better than the R-1 in that area?
Also, how is the R9-HR preamp, compared to a dedicated quiet preamp
feeding the R-1 ?  (Though to be honest I'd prefer to avoid having
a bulky setup with recorder and preamp.)

Also new recorders might be more practical : on the R-1, there's a
2 Gb file limit, about 2 hours in 44.1khz/24 bits, and the R-1 won't
create a new file when this limit is reached.  Hopefully this was
addressed in the R9 (well, I suppose the 2 Gb limit is still there because
of the FAT format, but I expect te R9 to create a new file without loosing
any sample when the limit is reached).

I'd like to keep binaurals which I body mount.  Now I understand these
recording conditions are not perfect, so, say if I buy the R9-HR, would I
be able to have a significant difference ?

From my experience as a listener (not recorder !), I learned that
probably the most important thing was the speakers (then amp and
source, but really the speakers matter), so I thought that
when recording the most important thing was the microphones. 

Also,  it seems to me that all the electrets-based microphones share
a similar design, could anyone comment on the differences between these ?
At the time I could not really justify to spend a huge amount of cash,
so I just went with some relatively cheap SP BMC-2.  I'd think that
most of the manufacturers would use WM-61A electrets, so these should
sound very close (ok, there's also some matching performed, but you get
the idea).  What kind of modifications of the capsule are performed by the
shops selling binaural electrets ?

[sunjan]

If you're going mic-in, Edirol has come a long way since R-1.

Take a look at these spectrograms comparing R-09 and R-09HR:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1422078.html#msg1422078
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109703.msg1466224.html#msg1466224

According to Digifish, R-09HR is quiet enough to run your BMC-2 mics on plugin power, but for unamplified music/vocals with low SPL, you'd still benefit from an external pre:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106364.msg1421337.html#msg1421337
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1444188.html#msg1444188

Given the circumstances, I'd put my money on upgrading the mics and get an external preamp first, if you have to choose between upgrading the recorder or mic+pre.

The Church omnis and ST-9100 would be a perfect match and upgrade for you.

Paging Chris Church....

[nzo]

Thanks for the advice.

I've been looking at R1 upgrades, and here's a kind a short list:

- Sony PCM-D50
- Edirol R09HR
- Tascam DR-07

The sony is supposed to have extremely quiet preamps.  However it's
a bit bulky, though I really like the autoclip feature (recording at the chosen
level, at at -12db below the level, and automatically switching to the -12db
signal if clipping is detected).  Seems really good, but not very stealthy.

The R09HR features seem quite balanced, and as per the graphs you linked,
preamp has been improved a lot.

Anyone could comment about the Mic-In preamps of the DR-07 ? Well,
max resolution is 24 bits at 48khz, but if preamp is good it might just be
an easy upgrade.

I think that I'll also seriously consider the CA9100 since it's very versatile,
and I also got a CF-modded iRiver which I could use.

Regards,

[(Evan)]

I stealth with the D50 and have had no problems with it being too bulky. It's really not as big as it looks in pictures and easilly fits in my pocket. The build quality, and the quality of the recordings it makes are incredible. One of the best purchases I ever made.

[nzo]

just replying to my own thread:  I decided to go with a Sony PCM-D50.
It's an excellent choice, and as was pointed out, not so difficult to
stealth with (esp. after stealthing with an Edirol R-1).
Amazing build quality, very easy to use, seamless splits and up to 16gb
of storage, good preamp...   I like it a lot !  Next step will be to
upgrade the SP BMC 2...

[soundpro]

Hello:

There are plently of possible upgrades from the SP-BMC-2's. These are our entry level mics ($49 a set). As you probably already know, the mics are probably single most important part of the recording chain.

Here are a few suggestions for affordable upgrades (there are others from manufacturers such as Core Sound, Sonic Studios, etc):

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-8
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-9

All of the mics above do *not* use Panasonic mic elements.

Best Regards,

Chris Carfagno
sales@soundprofessionals.com
www.soundprofessionals.com
The Sound Professionals, Inc.
3444 Sylon Blvd
Hainesport NJ, 08036
800-213-3021
609-267-4400
609-267-0054 fax