Topic: Who Went from a R-09HR to PCM-M10

[cgresq192]

Now that the PCM-M10 has been out for a while I'm curious how many went from a Edirol R-09HR to a Sony PCM-10

I tape mostly stealth and also wondering how people with experience using both have been working out.

Thanks for any info

[colargol]

I did, and I am very satisfied...
The most important factor for me, doing stealth, is that I can easily adjust gain manually, and without fiddling with the hold button. Of course, a lot of people with disagree that this is better, but for me, it is.
The overall feel of the M10 is a lot better, IMO, and of course, the battery time is awesome.

-c

[Belexes]

I did and would not switch back to the R-09HR. The M10 has great battery life and I like that you can fiddle with the gain without introducing any noise to the recording.

[fmaderjr]

The most important factor for me, doing stealth, is that I can easily adjust gain manually, and without fiddling with the hold button. Of course, a lot of people with disagree that this is better, but for me, it is.
The overall feel of the M10 is a lot better, IMO, and of course, the battery time is awesome.

Yes! I don't get all those that disagree with this. You'd have to stuff the M10 into very tight jeans for the gain setting wheel to move. For me too it is a definite advantage to be able to change gain without taking off the hold switch.

And as Belixes points out, it is nice that when you change gain you don't introduce noise into the recording. The noise introduced by the HR is horrible-you'd only want to change during applause, etc. where it could easily be edited out. I know people say never change the gain during a recording but I sometimes do it once (usually after the first song during the applause) if I notice my initial gain setting way way too low.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

IMHO, the gain knob is a disadvantage in every way...     Button-based gain changes allow you to change the gain without ever removing the unit from a pocket.  So you can change gain with security looking right at you.

[illconditioned]

I've never used the Edirol R09HR, just the plain R09.

However, I love the M10.  What I do is keep the unit in my shirt pocket, facing inward, towards me.  I can quickly look down at the LEDS on the top.  I'm looking for Green (signal), and just drop the volume if they go Red (overload).  If I'm sure of the levels, I just tape the wheel with a bit of gaffers tape.

If you're getting just one unit, I highly recommend the Sony.  It works great for both ambient and live music recording.  I usually just set the level to #4/10 or so, and the only control I adjust is the high/low sensitivity.  You'll discover pretty quickly what level works for your given mic setup.  And, as mentioned earlier, the battery life is outstanding.  I just leave the unit on always, and lock it when not in use.

  Richard

[Chris K]

IMHO, the gain knob is a disadvantage in every way...     Button-based gain changes allow you to change the gain without ever removing the unit from a pocket.  So you can change gain with security looking right at you.

A small piece of gaffers tape solves that problem.    edit...as I misread your post and thought it was concerned about accidentally turning the M10 gain knob.

Now to correctly respond...Why would you change the gain with the recorder in your pocket? How do you know the hold is off and if  your' adjustments' are having any effect on the r-09 while its in your pocket? Wouldn't you want to see the meters when you change the gain? And let's face it, you can easily turn a dial on the M10 while it is in your pocket. Not to call anyone out, but I guess I just don't see what the big deal is with changing gain while the recorder is in your pocket.....it can be done with buttons that you press, it can be done with a knob that you turn.

Having used both the R-09 and the M10 it is my opinoin that the M10 is superior in battery life, sound quality (on board mics), metering, and user friendliness.

[willndmb]

sounds like there will be a r09hr for sale soon

[Belexes]

^ For cheap! 

[stevetoney]

They're both good but the M10 is better.

[gmm6797]

moved to the m10 and never looked back, not even for a nano-second

[cgresq192]

OK

Ya'll convinced me

R09-HR in the yard sale

[illconditioned]

OK

Ya'll convinced me

R09-HR in the yard sale

I wouldn't be so fast to sell the Edirol.  You'll have trouble getting a good price for it (probably).  Just keep it as a backup, or to run at the soundboard if you get a feed.

  Richard

[rainydaybloke]

So can anyone recommend an online seller, pref with a good price? All the ones I've checked are out of stock. Is the next model (M11?) about to be released?

I need a replacement R-09 because of the dreaded bad input connection problem which forces me to use the onboard mics, and they ain't so great.
I'm also considering the Tascam DR-2D ... anyone used both Sony and Tascam?

[colargol]

So can anyone recommend an online seller, pref with a good price? All the ones I've checked are out of stock. Is the next model (M11?) about to be released?

I need a replacement R-09 because of the dreaded bad input connection problem which forces me to use the onboard mics, and they ain't so great.
I'm also considering the Tascam DR-2D ... anyone used both Sony and Tascam?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

[acidjack]

I moved to the M10 (because my R-09HR was destroyed) and prefer it, but only because of the better battery life, slightly better preamp, and the onboard storage capacity.  I also don't stealth much.

If I did, I still think the R-09HR is better precisely because of the "HOLD" function that allows you to lock the gain.  I also found the giant "RECORD" button in the middle much easier to find in the dark, without looking at the deck.  And the M10s brighter lights (including the nice-looking flashing peak lights on either of the top corners), while desirable if you're not worried about being detected, are also a negative for stealth reasons.

I also bought into the whole "the level knob won't move" thing after many on here said that was the case... and then found out the hard way when it did move one time when I was pulling the deck out of my pocket to check levels.  Yes, I know how to use gaff tape - but that seems like a less desirable solution than a "hold" button that actually puts ALL functions on hold.

If I still had the R-09HR, and if mine had not been damaged, I would not have moved to the M10.  If anything, if it's sound that you're concerned with, and you record quieter stuff, you'd be better served by adding a Church pre.

All that said, the M10 seems better built and the battery life is amazing.  So it's really just a matter of dealing with the REC knob and changing the setting for the peak lights.

[cgresq192]

Thanks for all the replies, especially acidjack for your breakdown.

[mblindsey]

While a bit cumbersome, the <choose your small mic here, i have CA-11's> and the CA-9100 into an R-09HR has met my needs.  It is a bit of cables here and there.  It is a bit of bulk in my rig...at least the size of two packs of cigs + mics.  I have pulled great recordings with it.  Great for me when stands are not allowed but recording is.  I like the looks/specs of the Sony, but can't justify the move.  My batt's last the length of a concert.  For festivals, I have an open rig.  The R09-HR has never failed me. 

---give me a small recorder with a pre like the church that powers the audix caps in one unit and I'm sold...     

[su6oxone]

I used the R-09 and R-09HR for a year or two and now own a M10 and have to say that the M10 is clearly nicer in terms of build quality, battery life, larger screen, but not necessarily anything significantly better than the R-09HR.  Like acidjack mentioned, the dial does turn without a whole lot of effort while the R-09HR has a hold button that locks the recording level buttons too.  On the other hand, it's more convenient to use a dial than the buttons. 

I did like how on the R-09HR the lanyard attachment loop is located on the top of the unit (when standing vertically), which I used to attach a neck strap and hang it around my neck when stealthing (easy access, easy to see the screen discretely, etc.) whereas the M10 has a loop on the bottom right corner.  However, I wanted to try something new so I got the M10 and plan to slip it into a shirt pocket when stealthing where the gain dial shouldn't be too susceptible to accidental movement. 

Otherwise, the M10 supposedly has quieter pres (I don't know, still haven't tested out my M10) but if you use a CA9100 preamp it shouldn't be an issue really.  So in summary, I like the M10 over the R-09HR mostly over build quality (looks very solid compared to the cheap looking R-09HR and the even cheaper looking R-09), but I think either will be good for taping.  Oh, one last thing is that the M10 tends to still be cheaper than the R-09HR which always helps.

[illconditioned]

While a bit cumbersome, the <choose your small mic here, i have CA-11's> and the CA-9100 into an R-09HR has met my needs.  It is a bit of cables here and there.  It is a bit of bulk in my rig...at least the size of two packs of cigs + mics.  I have pulled great recordings with it.  Great for me when stands are not allowed but recording is.  I like the looks/specs of the Sony, but can't justify the move.  My batt's last the length of a concert.  For festivals, I have an open rig.  The R09-HR has never failed me. 

---give me a small recorder with a pre like the church that powers the audix caps in one unit and I'm sold...     

I've run the audix/church combination on plug-in-power, both the Edirol and the Sony, and it works fine.  Maybe not extremely loud shows, but I have not overloaded it so far.  It is certainly worth a try, especially for stealth shows.  Less wires and batteries to worry about.  Start it up, tape the gain knob, and go with it.

  Richard

[yates7592]

I 've run the R09-HR for a couple of years now (with a Church pre) and never had any cause to want to change. It does everything I need really really well, and i don't need to worry about the hold button. Battery life has always been more than adequate, no worries there, never gone below 4 bars after taping for 3-4 hours with alkalines. Never run it at a festival but if i did i'd just take along an extra set of batteries. If it ain't broke - don't fix it! Depsite all the positive reviews above, I don't see any significant advantage in shelling out a whole load more cash for the M10. Even with the M10 i'd still want to use a pre for loud shows.
I AM considering the Tascam DR-2D however, purely for it's 4-channel mode, that is a big advantage worth paying for in my book.

[aaronji]

The M10's pre is a good bit quieter than the R09HR's (~ 4 or 5 dB), judging from guysonic's graphs (and corroborated by Raimund Specht's measurements).  Less noise from plug-in power and in the high-frequencies as well.  Probably doesn't matter for many people, but, if noise is a concern, the M10 has an advantage. 

On the other hand, the R09HR can tell time...

[cgresq192]

Here's what I've determined this far:

R09HR
Larger/less stealthy
Less Battery Life
Louder Pre's
Hold locks everything

PCM-M10
Small/More stealthy
Better Battery Life
Quieter Pre's
Clock issue
Knob cannot be "locked"

Tough Decision....The set it and forget it nature of the R09HR seems a major plus.

[cgresq192]

in an ideal world

both M10 cons could prob be fixed with firmware update

(lock knob)
(fix clock issue)

[F.O.Bean]

What exactly is the runtime on this sucka And whats the biggest card that you can use Is anyone using a 32gb card

[Dede2002]

No secrets here. I'm a very happy R-09HR user and, yes, I do have issues regarding the PCM-M10 rec level knob.
Let's put all that aside. What about sound?
Considering that I almost never tape acoustic/soft music, a PCM-M10 will produce better sounding recordings than my R-09HR? Simple as that.
Also, I'm curious about the lights. Can I get rid of suspicious bright lights on the Sony like you do with the R-09HR?

Thanks in advance.

[su6oxone]

Also, I'm curious about the lights. Can I get rid of suspicious bright lights on the Sony like you do with the R-09HR?

You can turn off the LED lights (the green -12dB and red 0dB lights next to each internal mic) from the menu.  The LCD screen can be set to power save with several different times before turning off, but the brightness of the screen itself cannot be adjusted at all.  It's not a bad screen, but I would prefer the black/white screen of the R-09HR for stealthing since it is likely less noticeable than an orange screen in the dark.

[acidjack]

I'd agree with the below except re: size. Size is almost identical. The M10 is slimmer "seeming" but I don't think it actually is; just has rounded-off corners.

Here's what I've determined this far:

R09HR
Larger/less stealthy
Less Battery Life
Louder Pre's
Hold locks everything

PCM-M10
Small/More stealthy
Better Battery Life
Quieter Pre's
Clock issue
Knob cannot be "locked"

Tough Decision....The set it and forget it nature of the R09HR seems a major plus.

[Belexes]

Many of us taped with portable Sony DAT decks which also had a gain knob, was this that big of an issue back then? Wasn't for me.

[acidjack]

Many of us taped with portable Sony DAT decks which also had a gain knob, was this that big of an issue back then? Wasn't for me.

I generally kept that thing in a hip sack because it was so big. Of course, you could do so with an M10, but I rather like being able to put the unit in my pocket rather than having to wear what I tend to consider one of the uglier pieces of clothing out there.  The M10 knob moves and cannot be locked.  I don't care that gaff tape can hold it down; it's still a flaw in the unit (for what we are doing).

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Many of us taped with portable Sony DAT decks which also had a gain knob, was this that big of an issue back then? Wasn't for me.

It's more than that.  Adjusting gain with buttons allows an exact change in gain without ever looking at the display, or removing the recorder from pocket, etc.

And if the knob is moving, as acidjack mentions, will that pot get noisy/dirty and cause the gain to jump around?

[acidjack]

Certainly the gain pot getting dirty is also a potential issue, though that never happened with my DAT deck. 

The wheel moving is a real issue on the M10 also because, unlike on a DAT where the gain knob was on the top of the unit, in the same place as the line-in, on the M10, it's on the side. So if it's in your pocket and you pull it out, it's more likely to rub against your clothing or your hand and move.  I don't recall if I ever tried to put my D8 in my pocket, as I'd have needed a pretty big pocket, but that design would have, in theory, made it less likely to have that happen. 

[Belexes]

I admit, I wear a small fanny pack.    However, it eliminates any issues with anything rubbing against the wheel.

[aaronji]

The M10 knob moves and cannot be locked.  I don't care that gaff tape can hold it down; it's still a flaw in the unit (for what we are doing).

I wouldn't call it a flaw.  Some people have posted here that they like the set-up of the M10 gain knob, while others (and I would put myself in this camp) don't really care too much one way or the other...

In any event, for those that view it as a flaw, the problem is easily solved: don't get the Sony.  Stay away from the Olympus models too...   

[Chris K]

The gain knob on the M10 is not loose...at least on mine it is very stiff.

I really don't know what all the debate is about on the gain knob and stealth...I mean back in the day I would stealth with an SD MP-2 and an SBM-1 both of which had gain knobs that were not lockable. I got it done and I am sure those with a Sonosax or other variable gain preamps were similar.

Technology has come so far mostly for the better that I find the whole M10 gain knob vs R09 gain buttons trivial. Not to mention these recorders both can do 24bit recording so you don't have to peg levels like you did in the ole 16bit days which translates to more conservative levels which also means less worry about level checking every 5 minutes.

[Belexes]

I think folks like to still peak at their levels all the time, like was done more during 16 bit recording.

Set it and forget it. - Ron Popeil

[F.O.Bean]

Ummm, what kind of runtimes does one get w/ the R09/R09HR I will be using Energizer 2300mah AA's

[hurrysundown]

I'm a noob to this board-tons of info. Is the M10 good for DAT xfers(non-taper here, just have clones from the 90s). I'll use RCA outs of a D10 refurbed at Pro Digital(no dig out, Euro model i think cause the manual doesn't have english).  Do i need a converter or can i go straight from D10>M10?  Then USB to PC>Audacity? The Tascam DR 03 didn't seem to handle the levels well, even though I had used the manual setting w/level turned all the way down.  I have other questions but I'll start here, just didn't want to start a new thread unnecessarily.
Thanks
Eddie

[Belexes]

I wouldn't do DAT transfers on any deck that doesn't have a digi out, but that's me.

[hurrysundown]

I wouldn't do DAT transfers on any deck that doesn't have a digi out, but that's me.

Thanx Belexes,  Does the M10 have a digital input?  I will send sick DA-P1 to Pro Digital, I bought on ebay it to just play tapes a few years ago.  I don't think I wanna buy another DAT and have another bad out.   There is a mild whine/buzz from the digital out.  Do they make a digital cable to go from the digital out of the DA-P1 to the M10 digital in?

[Belexes]

M10 doesn't have a digi in, but the D50 does.

[jamroom]

I found this to be a helpful thread, since I am looking for a new recorder (R09 owner). I guess it probably boils down to two issues for me. Paranoia about not being able to lock all buttons (volume - taking into account comments about the M10 not being that easy to accidentally adjust in the pocket into account) and the continually on, low pro screen of the R09HR vs the bright screen of the M10 that needs to be turned on to check levels. Needless to say my low pro approach favours the R09HR, even though I fancied a change to the M10.

[gmm6797]

like any other change in your life.... you get used to the changes with in a show or two... and i have never knocked the volume knob on the M10

[Brian E.]

I have an r-09HR and I was just googling around to see if the M10 offered anything better sound/feature-wise, but I don't think it really does.  I'm happy with my HR and I don't think the M10 would offer any upgrade for me.

[rastasean]

It's understandable you don't want to or feel the need to upgrade since the 09hr is quite a nice recorder on its own. Congrats on your decision!

[acidjack]

It's understandable you don't want to or feel the need to upgrade since the 09hr is quite a nice recorder on its own. Congrats on your decision!

Agree. I only upgraded to the M10 - which I do really like and prefer, mostly b/c of battery life - because my R-09HR screen cracked.  I don't think they are that distinguishable otherwise. 

[gmm6797]

I have an r-09HR and I was just googling around to see if the M10 offered anything better sound/feature-wise, but I don't think it really does.  I'm happy with my HR and I don't think the M10 would offer any upgrade for me.

IMHO, the M10 sounds better, travels better and runs longer... there is no volume setting to stick to and thus removed the need to run too low (again, IMHO)

[Brian E.]

with something like the 9100 line in, it sounds better?  In what way?

What do you mean there is no volume setting to stick to?

[StuStu]

with something like the 9100 line in, it sounds better?  In what way?

What do you mean there is no volume setting to stick to?

He may be referring to the adc. I prefer the build, adc and battery life much better with M10 than the HR. I have no regrets that I sold mine. The HR is a nice recorder though.

[jbell]

with something like the 9100 line in, it sounds better?  In what way?

What do you mean there is no volume setting to stick to?

He may be referring to the adc. I prefer the build, adc and battery life much better with M10 than the HR. I have no regrets that I sold mine. The HR is a nice recorder though.

[/b]

I also sold your HR to buy a M10!!  The battery life alone is worth the switch.  With that said I did buy and R05, but haven't really used it.

[Brian E.]

Cool.  I really don't see the issue with battery life, unless you're recording festivals.  I can get a good 5-6 hours on two rechargeable AA's on my r09HR.  I have almost never needed more, and if I did I could just carry an extra pair of AA's between bands.

[StuStu]

Cool.  I really don't see the issue with battery life, unless you're recording festivals.  I can get a good 5-6 hours on two rechargeable AA's on my r09HR.  I have almost never needed more, and if I did I could just carry an extra pair of AA's between bands.

I'm not usually festival bound and 5-6 hours is plenty for me too.

[gmm6797]

yes, I was refeering to the unity volume setting required on the R09HR and the lack of one on the M10.  I did have many occasions with the R09HR where I had to change batteries, more often than I ever thought I would... just seeing 2-3 bands on a summer shed tour.
with the M10 I have had no issues at any level, as long as the auto-level button on the back is taped down
again, just based on my experiences

[F.O.Bean]

I have used both extensively and there is NO CONTEST, the M10 is hands down the winner

[markrsmith]

I liked being able to read the recording levels on the m-10 better...with the # up to 0 ddb on the screen.

[F.O.Bean]

I liked the recording levels of the m-10 better...with the # up to 0 ddb on the screen.

Agreed! Its very consistent

[spyder9]

I thought the HR was muddy when compared to the M10.  That was the primary reason I sold the HR.