Topic: Maggies

[pfife]

Opinions on these, esp from current/previous owners?  I am looking to grab some new speakers for critical listening, and ran across these in a search of TS.  It seems too good to be true for these speakers (MMG W's) to be $299 a pair, and have them sound as good as the reviews I am seeing...

By the frequency range, I am thinking they need a sub... 100Hz - 16 kHz +/- 3dB;

thanks for input.

[Nick Culbreth]

I own a pair of MMGs and I couldn't be happier with them.  They image very well and have nice detail, especially in the high end.  If you are a bass hound you'll definately need to add a subwoofer, but I don't like a ton of bass in my music so I've never been compelled to add one.  Magnepan offers a 60 day refund if you're not happy with them, so really you don't have anything to lose.

[Brian Skalinder]

The MMG-Ws are targeted as surround speakers, not mains.  My speaker setup:

MMG  |  L/R mains  |  50hz - 24 kHz
MMG-W  |  surrounds  |  100Hz - 16kHz
MMG-C  |  center  |  100Hz - 16kHz
Pinnacle Baby Boomer  |  sub  |  23Hz - ??

Heh...haven't even used the -C yet as I don't have an amp for it.  Doh!!  At any rate, I would *not* use the MMG-Ws as mains - their freq response just doesn't cut it.  I've found the W passable - but not stellar - for HT stuff, even given the freq response.  If you go with the regular MMGs as mains, you'll want a fast sub if you like your bass, IME.  MMGs pop up on Audiogon for ~$300-350 or so pretty regularly, if memory serves.  Even after a year-plus I'm still stunned by the Maggie sound!

And yes, Moke - they require an amp that can handle 4-ohms.

[scervin]

You best get WAF approval as well

[pfife]

WAF approval?

thanks for the input doods

[pfife]

Hey Brian/McMulbeth - what amp are you using to power them (the mains, that is...)

need a point of reference - thanks

+ts

[Tim]

don't the mmg's also require a lot of room around them to breathe, several feet from the back and side walls? just something else to consider

[scervin]

Sorry.... Very common term in HT forums, and I hang there most of the time.

WAF-  Wife Acceptance Factor

This is huge checkmark for me when purchasing new gear.  The Maggies do better out far from walls and they would never get proper approval.

[Frank M]

I'm definitely *not* trying to be overly-critical, but FYI...

Something you should be aware of is that while speakers of this type image very well and have great detail, they have a very small sweet spot.  Also, due to comb-filtering, you get the "pickett fence" effect.  If you move your head while listening, it literally sounds like there's a pickett fence between you and the music.  

For $300 bucks though, you can't go wrong.  

[scervin]

Exactly Tim, which is what I was referring to.... WAF.  Last thing my wife wants is 2 big black things sitting in the middle of the living room.  Heck in what is supposed to be MY room, she still questions my speaker positioning....  looks fine to me!  

[Brian Skalinder]

Hey Brian/McMulbeth - what amp are you using to power them (the mains, that is...)

Previous:  Adcom GFA-555
Current:  McCormack DNA-1

Both power the Maggies easily and well, but I found the Adcom harsher in the highs and the DNA fuller and smoother in the mids/lows.  I was very happy with it when I used it, but prefer the DNA-1.  A few people around here are powering their Maggies with a B&K amp, but I'm drawing a blank on the specific model(s).

And to Tim's point - the Maggies do need room to breathe.  I have mine 2' off the back wall, with not much of anything to the sides.  Pulling out further helps a bit more, but then they're in the way - so I'm happy with their current placement.  'Course, what speakers don't require breathing room?  I don't know of any, but I'm just a playback newbie.  Though I believe the Maggies need more breathing room the traditional box speakers.

And Frank is correct:  small sweetspot, but ohhhhh...how sweet it is, the detail and imaging.  I just love it.  With just Jen and I listening - and usually only me for critical listening - the small sweetspot doesn't bother me.

[Tim]

I know Todd R had to move the speakers out into when he wanted to listen and push them back when he was done... 

they sounded really nice though, there's just a lot more baggage, if you will, with these speakers than with traditional box speakers.

[pfife]

My reading is leading me to believe that the MMGs need to be away from the rear walls a bit, but the MMG W's are intended to be hanging ON the walls.

The MMGs have a small WAF (well, GAF) factor, but the W's would be nice - she'd have no beef with those.  We also have cats that would have a field day on the $550 "scratching posts"

Room is pretty small.

I'm beginning to think that whatever $ I saved in getting the speakers would be spent in getting an amp. 

[scervin]

"'Course, what speakers don't require breathing room?"

in-walls      

The speakers downstairs are 24" from rear wall and 18" from the side wall.  I'd like to go a little more, but then they block the screen.  My next room will be at least 16' wide.

sc.

[MattD]

My next room will be at least 16" wide.

I hope so!

[ducati]

I love Maggies.  Especially the 1.6QR which I think is a fantastic bargain in the high-end world.

However, like some mentioned, the WAF is very low.  My wife thinks they look very 70's in any color but black, and the width of the panels makes them seem very large.  With the 1.6QR's I tried, I had to get the 5 FEET away from the wall to sound good--any less and the soundstage collapsed and it all fell apart.  This was the 1.6QR, though, much larger than the MMG.  At the time I tried them I was running a McCormack DNA-125.  They work well with ARC tube amps, too.

Honestly if you can get the purchase approved... and move them out enough into the room...  And don't mind the small sweetspot (smaller than Martin Logan's)...   And don't mind the fact when you hold a piece of newspaper up in front of your face the sound eerily stops...  They are FANTASTIC speakers!  Yes they require compromises (what speaker doesn't??).  But the tradeoff is everyone I know who has owned Maggies is HOOKED.

(As stated before, the MMG-W is meant to be wall-mounted, and will not produce 100Hz bass when moved out into the room...  I think this would not be a good pair of fronts.  But the MMGs certainly would)

[pfife]

I actually think the WAF isn't going to be a problem, its a matter of really having enough space to pull them out from the wall and open up the soundstage.  I sent her a link to them, and her only response was about our cats and dog knocking them over/scratching them up.

I've read a few reviews where people have hung them from the ceiling - good idea, bad idea?  Thoughts?

[pfife]

yeah, reviews said the sound from the speakers were also quite sensitive to vertical movements by the listener...

[ducati]

I definitely wouldn't hang them...  Depending upon the height, of course, but typically you want the tweeter/driver to be at or near ear level when sitting.  With the MMGs, I would suppose you'd just want your ear located as near the ribbons as possible--which would mean hanging it almost to the floor anyway.  No real benefit there except the loss of bass due to the fact it wouldn't be coupled to a solid object (and thus would actually move the entire transducer when it played, lessening the effective bass output).

Are your cats declawed?  

A friend of mine has Martin Logan SL3's and has cats...  He came in the living room one day to his cat hanging from the panel.  The cat was declawed the next day  

[pfife]

no, unfortunately they aren't declawed.  I can't do that to them...

[ducati]

Can you trust them not to climb up the Maggies?  They will undoubtedly puncture the Mylar sheet if they do...

Now, it *might* not be the end of the world.  My cat (not declawed) doesn't sharpen her claws on my speaker grilles...  It depends upon the cat(s) I think.  If you have them conditioned to scratch a post or something, you should be fine.

[pfife]

Can you trust them not to climb up the Maggies?  They will undoubtedly puncture the Mylar sheet if they do...

Now, it *might* not be the end of the world.  My cat (not declawed) doesn't sharpen her claws on my speaker grilles...  It depends upon the cat(s) I think.  If you have them conditioned to scratch a post or something, you should be fine.

yeah, they use a scratching post.  Don't really ever use the speakers.  "Trust" is a pretty strong word to use though.  I was originally planning to get something that would be a little less accessible to them, but these maggies really have peaked my interest, and it sounds like people who have them really like them....

[ducati]

I think you'll be fine.

They are great speakers--like any loudspeaker they have design tradeoffs.  But if you value transparency, immediacy, and lifelike soundstaging over impact, power, weight...  They are a great choice.  Some folks who try them never go back.  Me, I'd like both, as I find strengths in both types of designs.  I would tend to use the Maggies on small scale Jazz, tho...  But viewed in their pricerange, I would bet the Maggies will put up a very convincing argument, even with the weaknesses inherent to the design.

[Tim]

They are great speakers--like any loudspeaker they have design tradeoffs.

Great point. I don't think any of us were trying to talk you out of the maggies, just pointing out some of the design tradeoffs... every speakers has design tradeoffs, don't be scared off.. give them a shot.

[pfife]

I'm worried about space though....  that's my concern now.  I'm gonna have to kinda do some measuring at my house in the room I would be putting them, and see what I can do.

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts/inputs.  This will be my first delve into higher-end playback stuff.

[scervin]

As this is your first jump into "higher end" (really can't call this high end as it is more mid-fi which is where 99.5% of us fall) I highly encourage you to head out and listen to as much music on as many speakers as possible.  Go listen to some B&W's, Paradigm, Energy, PSB, Monitor Audio, ProAc, Kef, Vandersteen, Von Schweikert, Aerial Acoustic, and the list goes on. If you are anything like me this is what you will find most enjoyable!  Once you have what is is you were seeking, you will want to do it again and you may also come across a great dealer. This contributes a lot to the upgrade bug.

There are many that do love the sound of these speakers (myself included), but you are not everybody!  Your ears will be different and this is why I encourage you to pack up your fav studio discs (little jazz, good female vocals, blues, and some classical) and head out to Almas, Audio Video Alternatives, Audio Dimensions, Gramaphone, and every other local mid-fi/high end place you can find (there are many around).  If you have any questions, I've been to them all more than once.

my $.02
sc.

[pfife]

good advice - thanks scott.  Just have a hard time believing that I'm going to find something this nice at my price range (or this price range).

The mag website says they carry these at audio dimensions- do you know if that's true?

[scervin]

Yep, they carry them along with ProAc and Vandersteen.  They are around Woodward and 12 1/2 Mile??? Somewhere around there.  If you are out that whay I'd suggest hitting Almas, Gramaphone, and Audio Video Alternatives since they are all within a mile up and down Woodward.

[pfife]

Word.  I'll have to check them out.

[Tim]

check around, Paradigm and B&W make some nice speakers that won't break the bank... they are also popular enough that it is easy to find a store that carries them so you can go in and listen yourself.

[Nick Culbreth]

There are some tradeoffs associated with the Maggies, but the incredible imaging and detail far outweigh any of those issues.  Others have told me that the Magnepans are tough to power but I've never had that experience, I've used the B&K ST-140 which outputs 100 wpc and recently moved to the PrimaLuna Prologue One which outputs 35 wpc and I never felt either was insufficient.  I love MMGs and when I upgrade my speakers I'll be getting bigger and better Maggies.  Try them out, like I said Magnepan offers a 60 day money back guarantee and if you'd rather buy a used set you'll probably be able to resell them for pretty much what you paid if they're not your cup of tea.

[ducati]

I still use a pair of B&W DM302's upstairs in my office rig.  As I recall, they were about $250 or $300 new.  They were (and still are) fantastic speakers for the money.  I think B&W has a newer version out now--not sure if it's as good but you could look at that.

A pair of ProAc Tablettes could be found used around the $450 mark, I'd guess.  I love 'em.  A little low on output level (they get strained when pushed) but at sane volumes they're a real good taste of the high end.

I had a pair of Polk RT25i's a few years ago and they were pretty darn good--much better built than my B&Ws and although I ended up preferring my DM302's upstairs I still think the Polks are a great speaker.

I think NHT makes some good ones in a low price range, too.

Lots of choices really.  But if you can't get out to hear a pair of Maggies you can take advantage of that 60-day trial.  They have that long trial period for a reason--I am told very few are returned 

[pfife]

First and formost, +ts around for all the assistance.

I think the first step for me to do here is to get an amp... that can handle both 4ohms and 8ohms resistance.   I'm definately going to need that anyways, as I search at other speakers that are 4ohms as well.  If I don't have the amp, and get the maggies first, I won't even be able to use them!  If I get the amp first, I can at least use that whilst I await the arrival of whatever speakers I get.


Edit: I'm thinking a tube power amp, maybe?

thanks doods

[ducati]

Tubes do it for me, personally.   I have come around the circle many times...  First SS, then tubes, then SS, then mixed, now all tubed again.  They may or may not float your boat--you need to listen and "see."

The only caution is tube amplifiers that are well-designed to meet high-current and low-impedence demands are typically much more expensive than "decent" SS amps.  It can be somewhat expensive to get a "stout" tube amp willing to drive an odd load like a Magnepan or Electrostatic speaker.  I know my old Jolida 202a was NOT up to the task of a pair of Martin Logan SL3's...  It sounded terrible, in fact.

However, I have heard good things about the PrimaLuna Prologue One and Two driving MartinLogan Aerius i's, so there certainly are budget components that can drive difficult loads.

Historically, Audio Research has been a favorite pairing.  Bill Johnson of ARC fame helped get Magnepan off the ground, and they are located in the same town.  ARC amps usually have huge power reserves and drive difficult loads easily.  You can find good used ARC amps for very cheap--ARC has historically tended to appeal to audiophiles, who seem to trade their gear constantly.  So always lots of ARC on the used market.  If you end up liking tubes, they are a good co. to look into.

[pfife]

My experience with amps all comes from guitar amps, where I've done the SS -> Tube -> SS dance dozens of times... and I'm a tube amp person when it comes to guitar amps.  Much of what you say is the same principles that apply to guitar amps as well.    I'm gonna look into ARC.  thanks

[scervin]

Audio Dimensions carries Audio Research as well.  The Audio Research stuff is pretty expensive though.  I think I remember checking out $3000 amps while I was looking around.  You will get better sound pumping that kind of money into speakers.  I highly suggest checking it out though. 

I went to Audio Dimensions about 2 yrs ago (wow, longer than I thought) and the owner was there with another guy.  They were just sitting in a couple of chairs listening to some new Vandersteen's via turntable and Audio Research amp.  They told me to come listen with them for a minute. Very cool guys (older, maybe 50+).  I think the one guy was just a friend of the owner and was there so much he gave him a job 

[ducati]

A used ARC VT60 would run you about $700-800. 

The cheapest ARC amp currently in production is the VS55, which is the one I use.  $2500.

Like I said, the problem with tubed amps is they cost more--it's tough to get a real good "budget" tube amp, whereas many SS designs can be done cheaper with less compromises.  The transformers and associated components just cost a bundle (for tube amps)...

You can buy Jolida tube amps for as little as $325 or so--I sold a like-new 202a for $375 a few years ago!  I am an idiot!!!     While the Jolidas and the like aren't as stout as an ARC, they should drive most loads.  Not sure about Maggies, tho, as I know my 202a wouldn't drive Martin Logan SL3's without sounding like a dying amp... 

I suspect the PrimaLuna Prologue One will be available used for about $600 in a few months, once the gear-of-the-month crowd is through with them.

[Tim]

keep an eye on the Antique Sound Labs amps as well.... I bought new but you can definitely find them used.

Jolida, ASL, PrimaLuna

all good brands to keep an eye out for on the used market

[ducati]

I second that.

Here's a great site that tracks the products of Audio Research:
http://www.ardb.ws