Topic: New Playback Questions: Source (?) > PHP-850 preamp > HCA-1200II amp > VR-4's

[thegreatgumbino]

Edit:  Figured I should avoid creating another post, so I modified the original post to add some questions about the playback source.

Picked up a pair of original Von Schweikert VR-4's finally.  Now to figure out what kind of cables I need for these. 

1) All I need are the speaker cables for these, correct?  There is not a power cable, or is there?
2) Can anyone post some up close pictures of the rear of these speakers? 
3) The binding posts will accept spade or banana plugs, correct?
4) Anyone have an online copy of the owner's manual that I can read up on before they get here?
5) Any current owners have any insight on operation/lessons learned?  I know I need to bi-wire them, but haven't figured out how to do that yet.

[thegreatgumbino]

Michael...
are you running biwires, or shotguns to your 4jrs?
VSA told me the *must* be shotgun'd.  , or use two seperate pairs.

when I went from a single wire / jumper combo on m vr4s to running two pairs of cables, the difference was immediate, and huge.

What is the difference between a bi-wire & shotgun approach?  Anyone have any picture of a bi-wire setup to help out a noob?

[Nick's Picks]

what you need to do is get two pairs of cables, so you are wiring all of the cabinets independently.  It all then terminates together at the amp.  This is essentially the shotgun config, as I understand it (?).  This is the only way to fly.  Might as well do it right the first time.  The binding posts take anything you got.  spades, bananas  bare wires....etc.
You can use a jumper as well.  a cable that runs from the monitor cab to the bass cab.  and then a normal speaker wire into the  monitor (always go in the monitor w/a single wire approach, and jump down from there).
The distance between the two sets of posts is like 30", so bi-wire is not happening unless they are custom built. 
If you want to get out of it cheap, just go the DIY route and use the Home Depot power cable.  that shit sounds pretty smooth, imo.  Then you can get 4 separate lengths of it to your requirements.  Stuff it in some Techflex to cover it all up....you can make all look purdy and get the job done for cheap this way.  Even running bare wire.  what the hell?  one less piece' da resistance.


lessons learned?  toe them in more than you think.  almost pointing at you.  I had mine pointing to the outside of my head, or around my shoulder.  Do the white noise test to dial them in.
space them out around 10' or so, + or - 2'.  Sit back at equal distance...put on Stevie Wonders "Livin' for the City" at high volume and marvel at the massive amount of air these speakers can throw around.
sick eh?

[Nick's Picks]

+T for getting a true full range reference speaker!
viva la VR4

[carlbeck]

I am running a shotgun pair on my Jr's, I replaced a bi-wire pair & the shotgun's sound better. The bi-wire set up uses the same strand split for two leads at the end where the shotgun uses two entirely seperate cables into one end (in a nutshell)

[thegreatgumbino]

I was planning on using the shotgun approach, i.e. two sets of cables (spades) stacked at the amp.  One pair run to each cabinet.  I'm going to start with the HD cable for the speaker runs.  Am I correct in thinking that I can use standard 22 or 24 gauge cables for interconnects? 

What if I skipped the HD cord route and tried using the silver clad teflon cables that I've been using for mic cables?  Theoretically, I could combine multiple runs of the 2 conductor 24 awg cable to achieve a heavier gauge cable.  Eight each of the 24 awg is a cummulative 15 gauge cable, IIRC.  I think that would mean four conductors to both the (+) & (-) connectors for a total of 8 conductors.  My question would be how running 4 separate cables all with twisted pairs, shielded, and housed in teflon would communicate with each other? 

I've also got some 24 awg 4 conductor cable that I could use, so theoretically I could use 2 runs of this material to achieve the 15 awg gauge and then use one run for (+) and one for (-).  Once again, not sure how running the (+) and (-) conductors in separate housings would communicate.

It looks like this guy used the HD cord method and ran one cord length for (+) and one for (-), so they aren't shielded together.

http://www.theanalogdept.com/hd14.htm

The speakers are coming without spikes, which I won't need because they are going on laminates.  Anyone run them on hardwoods/laminates that can offer up advice on how to isolate them?  I talked to Albert V.S. last week, and he mentioned that some users have had good experiences cutting the rubber super balls in half & setting the speakers on these.  I image that would be stable enough considering the weight of these.

[thegreatgumbino]

Edit:  Figured I should avoid creating another post, so I modified the original post to add some questions about the playback source.

Alright, more questions.  I'v got my playback gear all in line with the exception of the cables (discussed above) & source.  I tried to pick up a Pioneer Elite DV-45a today off of Agon, but after the purchase they tested it out and it's faulty.  Back to zero.  That got me thinking, I'm looking for viable options for a playback source.  Do I spend ~$250 to $300 on a 24bit universal dvd player or try to go disc-less with a HD based system?  The playback system so far is:

Source (?) > Denon Tuner > PHP-850 preamp > HCA-1200II amp > Von Schweikert original VR-4's

Option #1:  Get a Pioneer Elite DV-45a / Denon 2200 or similar type dvd player and be done with it.  Cost = $250 to $300.

Option #2:  Use the Firewire Audiophile 24/96 sound card I have and my iMac and pursue a HD based system.  The stereo will be set up downstairs, and the computer is upstairs, so I'd have to pick up a Squeezebox to send the data wirelessly.  Cost = $290.  I think the squeezbox is all I would need to be up and running.  This wouldn't be a true HD based system since I'd be playing back CD's / DVD's through my computer due to the fact that I only have 160gb of space and no backup.  But, it would be the first step towards a HD system.

Option #3:  Build a HD enclosure music server to incorporate into the system.  Cost ??  No idea what this would entail, but I'm sure it would cost more and take more time to put together.

[Nick's Picks]

the source dilemma is my most common one too.

a GREAT deck..class A redbook , SACD and DVD-A playback would be great.  Never have to worry about anything else other than the burning, cataloging and maintaining of a collection.  IMO, the most expensive option.  You can spend shitloads on a great deck.  Those models you mention are good and all, but they wouldn't hold up to something like a Shanling SACD player, the T300 or something else of that class.  You start spending $2k + on decks and then you can get some shit.
anyone ever try out the dennon 5200 ?  I bet those analog outputs sound nice.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170602481
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172949982
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1171614478
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172451358
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170010108 (good deal!)

the HDD route, you just need a good DAC., and that basicaly nails it.  a great DAC is just like that great class A deck.  You can feed it anything (sans SACD), from any deck or PC or hand-held type thing.  I use a 2m glass toslink cable to connect my $24 chainteck 24/96 card direct to my DAC.  viola.
Control that PC over the network, and use my laptop as a remote.    Pretty sweet.

The SB3 could be cool too.  Small, tight package that sounds good out of the box.  tons of MODs...but, imo, a pricey way to get music off of a computer.

[thegreatgumbino]

the source dilemma is my most common one too.

a GREAT deck..class A redbook , SACD and DVD-A playback would be great.  Never have to worry about anything else other than the burning, cataloging and maintaining of a collection.  IMO, the most expensive option.  You can spend shitloads on a great deck.  Those models you mention are good and all, but they wouldn't hold up to something like a Shanling SACD player, the T300 or something else of that class.  You start spending $2k + on decks and then you can get some shit.
anyone ever try out the dennon 5200 ?  I bet those analog outputs sound nice.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170602481
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172949982
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1171614478
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1172451358
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1170010108 (good deal!)

the HDD route, you just need a good DAC., and that basicaly nails it.  a great DAC is just like that great class A deck.  You can feed it anything (sans SACD), from any deck or PC or hand-held type thing.  I use a 2m glass toslink cable to connect my $24 chainteck 24/96 card direct to my DAC.  viola.
Control that PC over the network, and use my laptop as a remote.    Pretty sweet.

The SB3 could be cool too.  Small, tight package that sounds good out of the box.  tons of MODs...but, imo, a pricey way to get music off of a computer.

I'm not looking for anything outrageous.  Don't have the $$$$.  Budget is along the lines of $350 max.

So you're running your laptop as the source > sound card > DAC, Nick?  I've got a work laptop (that I can use for personal use), but it doesn't have a firewire port.  Therefore, I'd have to get a new 24 bit external USB soundcard or a DAC.  A decent DAC is going to run upwards of $500, no?

[Nick's Picks]

nope, my laptop is the remote, using VNC to control a "dummy" PC that has some big drives in it.  that has the digi output which then goes into my stereo. 

[MattD]

nope, my laptop is the remote, using VNC to control a "dummy" PC that has some big drives in it.  that has the digi output which then goes into my stereo. 

We have the same setup, Nick.

[BC]

nope, my laptop is the remote, using VNC to control a "dummy" PC that has some big drives in it.  that has the digi output which then goes into my stereo. 

what is VNC? That sounds like a nice idea. I need to have a box with mega-storage hard drive action.   

[cshepherd]

Matt,
Most speaker cables are not shielded.  Some cable companies have engineered speaker cables with shielding, but you may want to do little research on the internets about shielded speaker cables before going that route.  Whichever you decide on, using eight separate cables in a bii-wire setup will not pose any problems. 

I would recommend using a set of spades and a set of banana plugs (on each channel) at the amp end.  I think it's an easier connection to make and possibly a little more secure. 

Chris

[Nick's Picks]

vnc
virtual network computing
www.realvnc.com
awesome remote control freeware.  multi platform..etc etc.

[thegreatgumbino]

Matt,
Most speaker cables are not shielded.  Some cable companies have engineered speaker cables with shielding, but you may want to do little research on the internets about shielded speaker cables before going that route.  Whichever you decide on, using eight separate cables in a bii-wire setup will not pose any problems. 

I would recommend using a set of spades and a set of banana plugs (on each channel) at the amp end.  I think it's an easier connection to make and possibly a little more secure. 

Chris

Thanks for the info, Chris.  +T

I've been reading up since my post & decided to stick with the HD cable for starters.  I need to read up some more on the possibilities of using the silver for speaker cables.  The thing I'm still uncertain of re: the HD cables is the conductor assignments.  Lots of talk about two conductors to the (+) and one to the (-) vs. one conductor to the (+) and two to the (-) vs. one conductor to both the (+) and the (-) and floating one cable, etc., etc., etc.

Am I correct in that the 22 awg silver clad cable will be sufficient for the interconnects, though?  I read something along these lines today, but can't remember the specifics.

[thegreatgumbino]

the HDD route, you just need a good DAC., and that basicaly nails it.  a great DAC is just like that great class A deck.  You can feed it anything (sans SACD), from any deck or PC or hand-held type thing.  I use a 2m glass toslink cable to connect my $24 chainteck 24/96 card direct to my DAC.  viola.
Control that PC over the network, and use my laptop as a remote.    Pretty sweet.

I've got a Panasonic DVD-RV32 that I haven't used in a couple years.  It has a digital out, and it looks like it plays DVD-Video, DVD-R, Video CD, CD, CD-R/RW, MP3, and WMA formats. 

It does not play DVD-Audio, PAL discs *, DVD-ROM, DVD-RAM, CD-ROM, CDV, CD-G, + RW, DVD-RW, CVD, SVCD, SACD, Divx Video Discs and Photo CD.  So, it looks like the big loss would be the lack of DVD-a.

If I'm reading this correctly, it outputs a 24/96 signal for non-copyrighted discs:

Digital output [DVD]

Change the settings when you have connected equipment through this unit's DIGITAL AUDIO OUT terminal (OPTICAL).

PCM Down Conversion

Select how to output the high-quality 96-kHz audio signals on discs that do not have copyright protection.

No (Factory preset):
Output as 96 kHz. The equipment you connect must be compatible with these signals.

Yes:
Down-sampled to 48 kHz/16 bit. 

If I've interpreted this correctly, it appears that I may be able to make this deck work for 24-bit playback by using "Audio DVD Creator" to burn audio as a DVD-V format for about $35, or I think Wavelab 5 will work as well.  In which case, I would have my "source" and could put the $$ towards a DAC.  What are the options for a ~$350 DAC?

[flipp]

What are the options for a ~$350 DAC

If you're lucky, you could win a Benchmark DAC-1 early next week and spend the $350 elswhere..
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/giveaway/

[cshepherd]

Matt,
Most speaker cables are not shielded.  Some cable companies have engineered speaker cables with shielding, but you may want to do little research on the internets about shielded speaker cables before going that route.  Whichever you decide on, using eight separate cables in a bii-wire setup will not pose any problems. 

I would recommend using a set of spades and a set of banana plugs (on each channel) at the amp end.  I think it's an easier connection to make and possibly a little more secure. 

Chris

Thanks for the info, Chris.  +T

I've been reading up since my post & decided to stick with the HD cable for starters.  I need to read up some more on the possibilities of using the silver for speaker cables.  The thing I'm still uncertain of re: the HD cables is the conductor assignments.  Lots of talk about two conductors to the (+) and one to the (-) vs. one conductor to the (+) and two to the (-) vs. one conductor to both the (+) and the (-) and floating one cable, etc., etc., etc.

Am I correct in that the 22 awg silver clad cable will be sufficient for the interconnects, though?  I read something along these lines today, but can't remember the specifics.

Yes, the silver clad cable will work for interconnects.  I can't comment on the HD-14/3 conductor assignments, though.   On your front end dilemna, I would spend the $350 on a Rega P1 a new dvd player and then pursue the wireless route.  $350 only goes so far.  A good source is essential for good sound.

Chris

[pfife]

nope, my laptop is the remote, using VNC to control a "dummy" PC that has some big drives in it.  that has the digi output which then goes into my stereo. 

We have the same setup, Nick.

me too.  no digital output though.  I think I'm going w/ the squeezebox soon though.  I'm just using windows remote desktop tho.

[thegreatgumbino]

What are the options for a ~$350 DAC

If you're lucky, you could win a Benchmark DAC-1 early next week and spend the $350 elswhere..
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/giveaway/

What are the options for a ~$350 DAC

If you're lucky, you could win a Benchmark DAC-1 early next week and spend the $350 elswhere..
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/giveaway/

Big +T for that!  It would be sweet to win one 

It would be nice if the Squeezebox accepted a digital signal.  Then I could use my Panasonic DVD player optical out > SB for discs, and run the SB wireless from my computer as well.

[Nick's Picks]

$350 is a hard budget for a good front end.  If you could double it...then you'll get somewhere.

[thegreatgumbino]

$350 is a hard budget for a good front end.  If you could double it...then you'll get somewhere.

I gotta start somewhere.  Realistically, I can make due with my dvd player if I must, but I'll probably get either the Denon or Pioneer DVD players that have the Burr Brown DAC's.  I'd love to go disc-less, but I think it's going to take some research on my part & more $$$ than I'm looking to spend right off the bat.

[pfife]

$350 is a hard budget for a good front end.  If you could double it...then you'll get somewhere.

I gotta start somewhere.  Realistically, I can make due with my dvd player if I must, but I'll probably get either the Denon or Pioneer DVD players that have the Burr Brown DAC's.  I'd love to go disc-less, but I think it's going to take some research on my part & more $$$ than I'm looking to spend right off the bat.

I think you'd be surprised.  If you're going to go diskless eventually, you might want to consider just doing so now, as you could just be wasting money on a player you won't be using when you go diskless (not to mention, burning disks you aren't going to use...)

I've got 2 320gb drives ($99/each at Best Buy) in which I set up exactly what brian links to above - the redundancy without RAID.   I'm running it in a 1ghz machine that I got from my work for free, but 1ghz machines can be had used on ebay for SUPER cheap... like $50.    If you've got a network already, just throw that machine on it, and share the drives.   SB3 for $300, and you into it for not too much more than $350.  Of course, if you have to install a network, that would increase the price a bit, but not more than $100, I'd imagine.  If you consider that you might be dumping a lot of money on a player, just to then switch to an SB3 a bit later, you'll be better financially in teh long run to just go with the SB3.

Also, don't know if you noticed, but the SB3 has the Brown Burrs.


I went diskless in November, and I've been loving it ever since.  And I loved using CDs. When I'm watching sports (which I do all the time), I just use EAC to rip my cds to FLAC, tag them, make an album playlist, and then move them to the main large HD.  Slim server automatically updates at midnight, so its available rather quickly on Slimserver.   Then, it copies over to the second drive at around 3am.

I'd recommend setting up slimserver, even if you don't have an SB3.  That'll give you an idea of just how cool it could be.   Having the ability to stream my whole collection (as decent quality Mp3s, which are encoded from the flacs on the fly using the lame decoder) totally rules.

[pfife]

here's another option... if you're going to eventually go diskless, go cheap on your player.   If they are still available, look into the Toshiba 3960 or 4960.  Mechanically, mine was a total POS, but it sounded very good (Burr Browns), and was about $50.   Played everything.   That way, you don't spend a lot on something you think you'll be abandoning soon.

hth

[bkirby]

For speaker wire, I would have to reccomend going this route (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72088.0.html). I finally finished mine yesterday and WHOAH! Unbelieveable after experimenting with many different DIY and manufactured cables! And they aren't even broken-in yet! My VR-2s have never sounded so good!
I have these set-up as shotgun with four separate cables to each speaker. I tried to add techflex to these, but the wires are so stiff that it just wasn't working out for an eight foot run. I have a couple pix that I can add later tonight...
The only spades I could find that would accomodate these giants are from Vampire Wire (6ga. spades)! They were a bitch to crimp, but finally got them done! Of course I will know more once they are finally broken in, but so far I am very impressed!!!
 

[Nick's Picks]

yup.  thats what i'm using too.  awesome stuff.

[thegreatgumbino]

I'd imagine it's long gone by now, but it's nice looking stock.  I sent them an email to see.  Thanks for the heads up.  +T's to the thread for the good advice.

[bkirby]

I'd imagine it's long gone by now, but it's nice looking stock.  I sent them an email to see.  Thanks for the heads up.  +T's to the thread for the good advice.

I guess I should have looked to see if he was still selling the stuff. Sorry! Hopefully you can find some of this stuff! It's only been about 24hours breaking in, and I'm already blown away! Good luck and BTW, I am still loving my interconnects in my recording rig...

[Nick's Picks]

it pops up from time to time...
and there would be no trouble using smaller versions of this as well.

this right here would kick ass:  http://tinyurl.com/y5ldgs
http://tinyurl.com/t7fr6, nice shotgun wire.

[thegreatgumbino]

it pops up from time to time...
and there would be no trouble using smaller versions of this as well.

this right here would kick ass:  http://tinyurl.com/y5ldgs
http://tinyurl.com/t7fr6, nice shotgun wire.

I've been watching the quad.  I emailed the seller to see if they'd sell it early, but they want to wait it out.  We'll see.

I was reading up on my gear, and Parasound doesn't recommend using anything bigger than 12 awg, fwiw.  The 14 awg quad would be great.

[Nick's Picks]

ok..
if your bidding on that, then I'll retract as I was going to snipe it to build cable to sell to the group.  but if you've got your eye on it ...its yours.

[thegreatgumbino]

ok..
if your bidding on that, then I'll retract as I was going to snipe it to build cable to sell to the group.  but if you've got your eye on it ...its yours.

Thanks, I appreciate it.  +T

I'm going to grab it for my speaker cables.  I figure it will be a good investment.   

[bkirby]

Here is a pic of the back of my VR-2s with the shotgun 6ga. silver wire...
Still sounding good! I never even thought about max. wire size reccomendations from amp manufacturers! My amp. says nothing about wire size, so I will assume all is ok...
That 8ga. wire looks good, and so does the 4-conductor braid! Give it a whirl...

[thegreatgumbino]

Here is a pic of the back of my VR-2s with the shotgun 6ga. silver wire...
Still sounding good! I never even thought about max. wire size reccomendations from amp manufacturers! My amp. says nothing about wire size, so I will assume all is ok...
That 8ga. wire looks good, and so does the 4-conductor braid! Give it a whirl...

That's some nice looking cable!  Thanks for the picture.  I need to go back & re-read it, but I think it was more a manufacturer recommendation and not a mandate, fwiw.

[Nick's Picks]

6ga is pretty damn thick, imo.  and will kill all but the finest binding posts as its so stiff and heavy.

i'd guess 10ga would be just about perfect.  I'm happy w/my 6's though.  good investment.
here are mine, sans Vamp spades (have them, but have been lazy).  Mine are set for "normal mode", as my speakers only have two posts.

I had them in a bi-wire config for a while, and those really kicked ass.  It was super easy w/this stuff.  the metal braid consists of 19 other braids of 19 wires.  you can untwist the entire thing, and re-twist it into two (one w/10 and one w/9 braids) leads at the speaker end, and leave it as is on the amp end.
this way, you only need those 6ga spades on one end, the amp.

[thegreatgumbino]

After re-reading the equipment manuals, Parasound says the connections on the amp are sized for using up to 12 awg bare wire connections.  They don't recommend using anything bigger for that type of connection. So, it shouldn't apply to using a mechanical connection.  However, due to the fact that their connectors are sized for bigger wire, they do not recommend using spade connectors.  Evidently they are the admitted weak link due to this fact and can shear off if tweaked on too much, etc.  Therefore, looks like I'm going to use banana's. 

I have a question about bananas though.  If I'm going to shotgun my speaker cables from the amp & run two separate pairs out to the VR-4's, I either have to bi-wire a cable like the quad we talked about earlier where there are two cable runs of 4 conductors that each terminate into 1 banana per (+) and (-) at the amp, or I have to run 2 sets of bananas at each connection of the amp to run all.  Is it possible to piggy back bananas?  i.e. run two bananas at the (+) and (-) for a total of 4 bananas?

Does that jibber jabber make any sense at all?

edit:  Found the piggyback banana plugs.  Just need to figure out what kind, etc.  Looks like Parts Express has a good selection.

[Nick's Picks]

why would you go this way again?
I wouldn't worry about the GA recomendation.  I believe (from the way it was worded), that this was the limit for working with bare wire?

you can still use a single banana for each double run.

[cshepherd]

If there is room for a spade underneath the tightening bolt, you may just need a wider spade to make a secure connection.  If it will take 12 awg through the hole, the binding post may be too wide for a standard 8 mm spade.  15 mm spades should work if you would rather use a spade/banana combo on each terminal.

Chris

[thegreatgumbino]

why would you go this way again?
I wouldn't worry about the GA recomendation.  I believe (from the way it was worded), that this was the limit for working with bare wire?

you can still use a single banana for each double run.

It is the limit for working with bare wire, but due to their design to accomodate the larger gauge wire, it compromises the strength of the terminal shaft.  If it does shear off, it's not covered under warranty.  From the source:

The speaker terminal shafts may be slightly too thick to accomodate standard 1/4" spade lugs.  If you prefer to use spade lugs instead of banana plugs, you can insert one half of each "spade" into the hole across each terminal shaft.  But if you do this, make sure you don't permit the lug to rotate as the terminal is tightened down.  It can easily cause the terminal shaft to shear off, as it is relatively weak in this one area due to the large diameter of the opening for accomodating heavier gauge wires.  We recommend banana plugs for convenience.

 

As for only using one banana for each double run, my thoughts were this.  I realize I can bi-wire the the quad cable, split them into two runs of two conductors, and have one banana at the amp and 4 separate spades at the speakers.  Instead, my thoughts are to pair two conductors together to achieve ~12 awg for (+) and (-) connections and run two sets of cables out of the amp (one to woofer, one to the midrange/tweeter), rather than using a jumper. 

Does it matter?  Probably not, but I don't know for sure.  Is there a downside to running piggybacked banana plugs?

[carlbeck]

My understanding is that spades are a better connection than bannana's, I use spades personaly.

[scervin]

I like the locking bananas from WBT.

www.vhaudio.com
www.ramelectronics.net

After re-reading the equipment manuals, Parasound says the connections on the amp are sized for using up to 12 awg bare wire connections.  They don't recommend using anything bigger for that type of connection. So, it shouldn't apply to using a mechanical connection.  However, due to the fact that their connectors are sized for bigger wire, they do not recommend using spade connectors.  Evidently they are the admitted weak link due to this fact and can shear off if tweaked on too much, etc.  Therefore, looks like I'm going to use banana's. 

I have a question about bananas though.  If I'm going to shotgun my speaker cables from the amp & run two separate pairs out to the VR-4's, I either have to bi-wire a cable like the quad we talked about earlier where there are two cable runs of 4 conductors that each terminate into 1 banana per (+) and (-) at the amp, or I have to run 2 sets of bananas at each connection of the amp to run all.  Is it possible to piggy back bananas?  i.e. run two bananas at the (+) and (-) for a total of 4 bananas?

Does that jibber jabber make any sense at all?

edit:  Found the piggyback banana plugs.  Just need to figure out what kind, etc.  Looks like Parts Express has a good selection.

[thegreatgumbino]

Alright, I can't decide what I want to do for a source (media vs. HD), so I'm going to save up my pennies for now.  I should be able to play dvd-v on my old Pioneer DVD player and run analog out to the preamp, correct?  I know the sound may suffer, but ya' gotta star somewhere, no?

[Nick's Picks]

patience, an overrated virtue in this hobby.

[thegreatgumbino]

For speaker wire, I would have to reccomend going this route (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72088.0.html). I finally finished mine yesterday and WHOAH! Unbelieveable after experimenting with many different DIY and manufactured cables! And they aren't even broken-in yet! My VR-2s have never sounded so good!
I have these set-up as shotgun with four separate cables to each speaker. I tried to add techflex to these, but the wires are so stiff that it just wasn't working out for an eight foot run. I have a couple pix that I can add later tonight...
The only spades I could find that would accomodate these giants are from Vampire Wire (6ga. spades)! They were a bitch to crimp, but finally got them done! Of course I will know more once they are finally broken in, but so far I am very impressed!!!
 

Do you remember which vampire spades did you pick up to run with these?  I think I'm going to grab some of this stuff and try it out.  Thanks for the heads up.  +T

Matt

[Nick's Picks]

the ones they have rated for 6ga
http://vampirewire.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&page=1&cat=7

doesn't really matter which, as long as it can handle that wire.

[bkirby]

the ones they have rated for 6ga
http://vampirewire.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&page=1&cat=7

doesn't really matter which, as long as it can handle that wire.

Just make sure you have a pretty beefy crimper! I had a mighty tough time working on those! They sure are solid once finished though...

Oh, and I used model "Part #HDS1 - Spade Connector"...

[thegreatgumbino]

Alright, question of the day.  If I run this 6 awg speaker wire, my understanding is that I'm going to have to do one of two things. 

Option 1 (which I hope works):

Run 8 each 6 awg conductors out of the amp.  This would be 2 conductors out of the (+) and 2 conductors out of the (-) binding post for both the right and left speaker outputs of the amp.  I would have to stack 2 of the spade connections at the (+) and (-) binding posts for the left and right outputs on the amp.  Is stacking the spades on the binding posts do-able?  Does this pose any problems with supplying the power over two separate runs that may short out the amp?

Option 2

Run 4 each 6 awg conductors out of the amp.  This would be ione conductor out of the (+) and one conductor out of the (-) binding post for both the right and left speaker outputs of the amp.  I'd then have remove the sheathing and bi-wire the cables so that the 4 conductors produce 8 spade terminations to power the 4 speaker cabinets.  If I go this route, I'd have to re-teflon the exposed wire.  Basically, what Nick was referring to here:

I had them in a bi-wire config for a while, and those really kicked ass.  It was super easy w/this stuff.  the metal braid consists of 19 other braids of 19 wires.  you can untwist the entire thing, and re-twist it into two (one w/10 and one w/9 braids) leads at the speaker end, and leave it as is on the amp end.
this way, you only need those 6ga spades on one end, the amp.

[bkirby]

Alright, question of the day.  If I run this 6 awg speaker wire, my understanding is that I'm going to have to do one of two things. 

Option 1 (which I hope works):

Run 8 each 6 awg conductors out of the amp.  This would be 2 conductors out of the (+) and 2 conductors out of the (-) binding post for both the right and left speaker outputs of the amp.  I would have to stack 2 of the spade connections at the (+) and (-) binding posts for the left and right outputs on the amp.  Is stacking the spades on the binding posts do-able?  Does this pose any problems with supplying the power over two separate runs that may short out the amp?

Option 2

Run 4 each 6 awg conductors out of the amp.  This would be ione conductor out of the (+) and one conductor out of the (-) binding post for both the right and left speaker outputs of the amp.  I'd then have remove the sheathing and bi-wire the cables so that the 4 conductors produce 8 spade terminations to power the 4 speaker cabinets.  If I go this route, I'd have to re-teflon the exposed wire.  Basically, what Nick was referring to here:

I had them in a bi-wire config for a while, and those really kicked ass.  It was super easy w/this stuff.  the metal braid consists of 19 other braids of 19 wires.  you can untwist the entire thing, and re-twist it into two (one w/10 and one w/9 braids) leads at the speaker end, and leave it as is on the amp end.
this way, you only need those 6ga spades on one end, the amp.

Mine are set up as Option 1 which I believe is called shotgun wiring!

[Nick's Picks]

you have no choice in the matter.
you must go option 1.
the spades will stack up just fine..but it will likely be a PITA due to the stiffness of the wire.

this is how VS says is "the only way".
plus, you'd have to un-braid a LOT of wire to make that 30" gap between the posts eh?

[thegreatgumbino]

you have no choice in the matter.
you must go option 1.
the spades will stack up just fine..but it will likely be a PITA due to the stiffness of the wire.

this is how VS says is "the only way".
plus, you'd have to un-braid a LOT of wire to make that 30" gap between the posts eh?

Thanks, guys.  I received speakers yesterday and got them setup temporarily with the home depot cables until my silver stock comes in.  I ran the cables per Option 1 and had no problems.  I revisited this in my post yesterday because I was talking to a guy at a hi-fi store and he was telling me it wouldn't work    I don't think he understood what I was saying, or just didn't have a clue.

FWIW, I picked up the Vampire HDS3 spades from Take Five Audio in Canada.  They have Cryo'd HDS3's for about $2.65 USD.  Most US retailers I found wanted $2.50/each for an non Cyro'd version.

[thegreatgumbino]

Oh, btw...

The new system sounded bad ass for 16 bit even with cheapo rca interconnects from my original Nintendo, the home depot speaker cables, my laptop feeding the source through a shitty mini > dual rca cable, and the amp/preamp being cold.  I can't freakin' wait to get some silver cables & interconnects made and figure out how to hook up my dvd player and listen to some 24 bit files. 

The down side was my wife told me they have been banished to the loft due to the fact that they are big & ugly!     I claimed I didn't realize how big they were going to be   

What that does is enable me to use the iMac (in the loft) as the source > Firewire Audiophile 24/96 > PHP-850 preamp > HCA-1200II amp > VR-4.  I'm still going to figure out how to hook up the old Panasonic dvd player.  I need to do some research on that though.  Does a dvd player read flac files off of a cdr or dvd-v?

+T's for all the help.

[carlbeck]

Honestly being in the loft can't be that bad of a thing, crank it up

[Nick's Picks]

that much less room to pressurize.

i'm tellin ya, Stevie Wonder "livin for the city".

no, you can't play FLAC files via any CD/DVD deck that I know of, unless its in a computer.

[thegreatgumbino]

Honestly being in the loft can't be that bad of a thing, crank it up

Oh, definitely not.  It's a good sized room (15' x 18'), and it's carpeted where downstairs is wood.  It also solves my source dilemma for me since the computer is up there.  Now that I can run out of the Mac I'm going to figure out how to go media-less.  I've got an external 250 gb HD, so I could pick up another and set them up for automatic backups.  It would be a cheap and easy way to get started. 

The worst part about the loft it is that it's directly above the master bath, so she's going to have a hard time sleeping while I'm jammin' out upstairs 

that much less room to pressurize.

i'm tellin ya, Stevie Wonder "livin for the city".

no, you can't play FLAC files via any CD/DVD deck that I know of, unless its in a computer.

Good to know.  Thanks, Nick.  That helps even more with my source dilemma since my archived cd's/dvd's are all flac files.  All the more reason to move to HD based playback. 

Unfortunately, I don't have Stevie Wonder's "livin for the city".  But I sure had fun playing a ton of other stuff last night!

[som]

i'm tellin ya, Stevie Wonder "livin for the city".

I kept reading this, so last night I pulled out my old vinyl copy of Innervisions that I haven't played in years and listened to the whole thing. What a great album, +T for reminding me of that!

[bkirby]

you have no choice in the matter.
you must go option 1.
the spades will stack up just fine..but it will likely be a PITA due to the stiffness of the wire.

this is how VS says is "the only way".
plus, you'd have to un-braid a LOT of wire to make that 30" gap between the posts eh?

Yeah, it's a major PITA! Make sure you stack the spades the same way on each terminal. Apparentally it will make a difference in sound (but I don't hear anything). Also, make sure you crank down on the posts to keep them from falling out or moving (not too much to break the post)! The stiff cables really made this difficult, but they sure do sound good in my system!

[thegreatgumbino]

4) Anyone have an online copy of the owner's manual that I can read up on before they get here?

Anyone have this?  I don't find an owner's manual on their website.  I'm curious to know how to use the volume dials on the back of the midrange/tweeter cabinet to maximize their performance, and I'm curious in any other pointers they give on how to set them up for maximum performance.

[Nick's Picks]

the dial on the back adjusts the output of th erear fire tweeter.  the higher the number, the higher the volume.
I liked it cranked.  lots of depth w/it on.

[Nick's Picks]

also, I recall from the manual that they suggested a minimum of 8' spread between them.  and to have them pulled out at least 2'.

I ran mine 12' apart, 5' out in the room and 2.5' from each side wall.  Toed in a lot, maybe 3", so that they were pointing at each shoulder while I sat.
My seat was 13' away.
After keeping this for nearly a year, I moved them in a little to 10' apart.  I think I liked that a little better.  imaging was a little more stable.

[thegreatgumbino]

What is the longest speaker cable run you can make?  I've read several things on Cable Asylum that mention 8', but that is pretty limiting.  Any issue with 10' runs, realistically?

I'm loving my new playback.  My recordings sound completely different!  I've been considering moving to some different mics, but after hearing my recordings on a good playback system I've decided to hold off for a while.   

[cshepherd]

Speaker cable runs longer than 8' are no problem.  I think what you are reading about is optimum speaker cable length.  There is a theory that 8' lengths of speaker cable sound the best, particularly when compared against short runs of one or two feet.  This doesn't really come into play unless you are dealing with outboard crossovers that are placed at the base of the speakers.

Chris

[thegreatgumbino]

Speaker cable runs longer than 8' are no problem.  I think what you are reading about is optimum speaker cable length.  There is a theory that 8' lengths of speaker cable sound the best, particularly when compared against short runs of one or two feet.  This doesn't really come into play unless you are dealing with outboard crossovers that are placed at the base of the speakers.

Chris

Thanks, Chris.  That's good news.  The 8' runs weren't working out for me. 

+T

[carlbeck]

Trust me you do NOT need to change from AKG's, the people who complain about them usually do not have a full range system. On a nice system they sound very very good. Don't believe the hype, you are fine especially if you are running those puppies DIN.

As far as speaker wires go, there is no real set length that you can max out on but keeping all your cable runs as short as possible will always help.

[thegreatgumbino]

Trust me you do NOT need to change from AKG's, the people who complain about them usually do not have a full range system. On a nice system they sound very very good. Don't believe the hype, you are fine especially if you are running those puppies DIN.

As far as speaker wires go, there is no real set length that you can max out on but keeping all your cable runs as short as possible will always help.

I hear you.  I was toying with the idea of getting some DPA's for the ease of setup & the great sound, but I can't justify the cost for the marginal increase in sound quality.  The JW Mod 460's are sounding great to my ears with the new playback (even on the old).  More so, it was just the itch for an active setup than the sound issue.   

As for speaker cable runs, I'm going to go with 10' runs.  8' was a tad too short for my setup and was putting some strain on the spades/binding posts.  I may bump up to 12', so I have a little more mobility with speaker arrangement.

[carlbeck]

Trust me you do NOT need to change from AKG's, the people who complain about them usually do not have a full range system. On a nice system they sound very very good. Don't believe the hype, you are fine especially if you are running those puppies DIN.

As far as speaker wires go, there is no real set length that you can max out on but keeping all your cable runs as short as possible will always help.

I hear you.  I was toying with the idea of getting some DPA's for the ease of setup & the great sound, but I can't justify the cost for the marginal increase in sound quality.  The JW Mod 460's are sounding great to my ears with the new playback (even on the old).  More so, it was just the itch for an active setup than the sound issue.   

As for speaker cable runs, I'm going to go with 10' runs.  8' was a tad too short for my setup and was putting some strain on the spades/binding posts.  I may bump up to 12', so I have a little more mobility with speaker arrangement.

Do NOT even get me going on the DPA's, worst money I ever spent. I never should have sold my MK 4's for them or my 480's or my V3 or my MMe or my 248 or my 148 now that I think about it 

It's easy to get seduced by a simple active set up but don't do it!

[carlbeck]

My point being that until you get your reference system dialed do not buy or sell any piece of gear until you can REALLY hear it, trust me.

Nick & I still laugh at how much we though we were hearing when we had Kenwood, Polk & the like. No offense against any of those components or anyone who has them but you really can't hear what is going on. They color everything way too much & we thought it was pretty accurate! I sold some stuff I NEVER should have sold because of it.

[thegreatgumbino]

Brad or Nick-

Any chance you recall the diameter of the 6 awg silver cable?  I'm thinking about picking up some techflex to try and cover it.  I know Brad mentioned it was a bitch to do, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I hear you Carl.  I almost sold some of my gear to fund the playback, but after piecing the playback together I'm glad I didn't.  I'll be holding onto it for a while.  Damn playback is almost as much of an addiction as taping!     My wife's about ready to start making me wear earplugs when listening to the system, though.  She didn't realize it was going to be so loud.   

[carlbeck]

There are times in my life where it is MORE addiciting than taping 

[bkirby]

Brad or Nick-

Any chance you recall the diameter of the 6 awg silver cable?  I'm thinking about picking up some techflex to try and cover it.  I know Brad mentioned it was a bitch to do, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I hear you Carl.  I almost sold some of my gear to fund the playback, but after piecing the playback together I'm glad I didn't.  I'll be holding onto it for a while.  Damn playback is almost as much of an addiction as taping!     My wife's about ready to start making me wear earplugs when listening to the system, though.  She didn't realize it was going to be so loud.   

I purchased some 3/4" Techflex, but it was still a bit roomy. I think 1/2" would be nice and tight, but I don't have any 1/2" to test. I know this doesn't answer you completely, but hope it helps a little...

[thegreatgumbino]

I purchased some 3/4" Techflex, but it was still a bit roomy. I think 1/2" would be nice and tight, but I don't have any 1/2" to test. I know this doesn't answer you completely, but hope it helps a little...

Were you running two cables through the 3/4" or single runs, Brad?

+T's to the thread for helping me with yet another addition.

[Nick's Picks]

remember...that stuff expands 5x its stated width.
1/2 will open up pretty wide.  thats what I used (two cables going through, twisted)

[Nick's Picks]

btw, I bet your new system will have you really thinking about dumping the AKGs and just sticking w/that LSD2.  screw actives.  lets see someone defend themselves w/DPAs or Schempz.
Your better off w/the investment lopsided on the playback end of things.  LSD is a damn'd fine mic. 
ok, studio projects fluffing aside....

[carlbeck]

btw, I bet your new system will have you really thinking about dumping the AKGs 

 

[thegreatgumbino]

remember...that stuff expands 5x its stated width.
1/2 will open up pretty wide.  thats what I used (two cables going through, twisted)

Do you know the diameter of the cable, Nick?  Was there any room left with the 1/2"?  I've got some 1/4" that opens to 7/16".  The 3/8" opens to 5/8", and the 1/2" opens to 3/4" is what it says.

btw, I bet your new system will have you really thinking about dumping the AKGs and just sticking w/that LSD2.  screw actives.  lets see someone defend themselves w/DPAs or Schempz.
Your better off w/the investment lopsided on the playback end of things.  LSD is a damn'd fine mic. 
ok, studio projects fluffing aside....

I'm interested in running some 4 mic mixes with split ck62's + the LSD2 M/S.  I think that could be an interesting combination. 

[bkirby]

I purchased some 3/4" Techflex, but it was still a bit roomy. I think 1/2" would be nice and tight, but I don't have any 1/2" to test. I know this doesn't answer you completely, but hope it helps a little...

Were you running two cables through the 3/4" or single runs, Brad?

+T's to the thread for helping me with yet another addition.

Mine was running four cables through the 3/4" Techflex (shotgun wiring)! I opted for no Techflex since the cable was just too stiff and with an 8ft. run, I would only be using about 4ft of Techflex. I saw no need for it! Let us see a pic of the cables once you are done! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts also...

[thegreatgumbino]

I haven't decided if I'm going to techflex it or not.  If I do, I'll probably do each paired run in one techflex sheath.  Although, I kind of dig the look of the white cables that you posted, Brad.  I'm interested to hear them as well.  The HD14g cables and crappy rca interconnects I'm running now sound pretty damn good to me, so it will be sweet to get all silver cables in the system.

Forgot to mention that I called VS to get some carpet spikes & new socks for the speakers today, and in response to a question about spades, they suggested running bare wire.  Evidently Albert recommends this.  I'm still going to go with the spades, but found it interesting non the less. 

I've definitely got to get the HD based playback started.  Having to switch CD's is no fun (neither is the fact that my pre-amp doesn't have a remote), but I'll make do.

[bkirby]

Here's a messy pic of what the back of my amp looks like when using the 6ga. silver shotgun wires...

[Nick's Picks]

your lucky you have that much space between the posts.

[thegreatgumbino]

your lucky you have that much space between the posts.

No kidding!  I don't have that much real estate unfortunately, but I'll make do.

[bkirby]

your lucky you have that much space between the posts.

No kidding!  I don't have that much real estate unfortunately, but I'll make do.

Geez! I still think this is a tight fit, but of course things could be tighter! I will soon be switching my main amp to a GFA-5802 which has four posts for each channel which will clean things up even more! Good luck with ya'll's endeavors and Matt, let us know how you like the new cables. +T ya'll...

[carlbeck]

Just run a pair of mono blocks, you have room to spare 

[thegreatgumbino]

For speaker wire, I would have to reccomend going this route (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72088.0.html). I finally finished mine yesterday and WHOAH! Unbelieveable after experimenting with many different DIY and manufactured cables! And they aren't even broken-in yet! My VR-2s have never sounded so good!
I have these set-up as shotgun with four separate cables to each speaker. I tried to add techflex to these, but the wires are so stiff that it just wasn't working out for an eight foot run. I have a couple pix that I can add later tonight...
The only spades I could find that would accomodate these giants are from Vampire Wire (6ga. spades)! They were a bitch to crimp, but finally got them done! Of course I will know more once they are finally broken in, but so far I am very impressed!!!
 

Finally got these put together this weekend.  Installed them in the chain along with the speaker carpet spikes I ordered, and DAMN it sounds tight.  The bass tightened up a lot & I lost some dead noise during the black.  I figured it was all due to not having a power conditioner, but the cables played a part in it evidently.  These cables are stiff as shit, but sound great and look sexy in black techflex.  Thanks for the tip, Brad & Nick.

[Nick's Picks]

cool.
I've since refined my setup to a smaller gauge wire, somewhere around 12awg.  its thin, yet still has plenty of wire.  Easy to run in shotgun and mount bare wire in the standard 5way post. 
I keep thinking about every extra piece of metal being another layer (however minute) of resistance for the signal to pass through.  Bare wire is where its at, and the thinner wire works out super fine.
My shotgun wires are two individual runs.  a Y pair in black and a Y pair in red.  Very easy to setup.  Nothing like that BANG factor of good wiring when it all falls into place.  I am such a firm believer in shotgun wiring.  Its the only way I'll run when I have 4 posts to do it on.