Topic: PS Audio Quintet

[scervin]

First off I just want to say I'm a skeptic when it comes to power products (all except battery systems). 

I ran 2 circuits to my rack and really screwed myself by only putting single gang boxes in     With the pending arrival of new gear I needed more outlets and surge protection.  I heard good things about the new PS Audio gear and exchanged a few emails with Paul McGown about what would be best.  I asked about getting 2 duets ($600 used from Agon) so I could have digital and analog gear on different circuits or getting a Quintet.  Paul said nothing beats getting the digital and analog on different circuits, but he said the Quintet would be best due to slightly better filtering, antenna and DTV surge protection.  So I went with the Quintet since it would do a little more at a better price ($475).

My wife saw me pull it out of the box and couldn't believe the size of this "power strip".  It really is huge and heavy!  I don't really think it did much for the DVD picture quality, but it does provide a blacker background for the audio.  I highs seem slightly more extended as well.  I haven't had it long enough to do much else with it and it hasn't made me a total believer in passive power conditioning, but I must admit there is something different.

So far I have the turntable, phono pre, DVD player, receiver, and DTV box plugged into it.  Looking forward to getting my 2 channel tube pre this week.

SC

[Shawn]

whats the theory behind why getting analog and digital components on different circuits will improve quality? just curious as this si the first time I've ever heard that.

[nickgregory]

nice...I have power conditioning with my audio side now using an audio magic mini stealth, but I have been using a monster "level 1" power strip for the tv and sat receiver...I am gussing this may be little more than a surge protector...that said I have been going back and forth about getting a quintet, duet, or the older UPC 200....but I am not sure I would definitely see the benefit.  And since I would only be using whatever power solution I chose for tv, sat receiver and the dvd player...I am not sure what direction would give me the best bang for the buck...

regardless, look forward to hearing your thoughts when you get your new gear hooked up.

I tell you what, I thought taping and playing with pieces of my rig was addicting...it has nothing on this

[shane]

I was looking at those too on a'gon and was wondering if anyone had one.  Seems like a decent price for a decent price of equipment.  One of te things I noticed about it was there are so mny for sale over there.  Just makes me  a little skeptical.

Shane

[scervin]

The digital gear will put high freq. noise back down the line. 

From what I've noticed many of the Quintets for sale are from guys who just got their new PPP's.  The guy I bought from had 2 and kept 1 since his PPP arrived.  You couldn't find any on Agon until the new PPP's started shipping.

So far so good.  I really do believe this thing is helping my system from the listening I've done yesterday and today.  When I'm able to get actual measurements taken we'll see what it really does.  Either way it has to provide better surge protection than a Belkin unit from Walmart.....I hope 

[nickgregory]

Scott, Any more thoughts since you have had this a while?  I just realized that my turntable and phono pre will have to be a little farther from the rest of my components so I was looking into possibly getting a duet or a used UPC200 when it comes avaible for those two units..

[Church-Audio]

First off I just want to say I'm a skeptic when it comes to power products (all except battery systems). 

I ran 2 circuits to my rack and really screwed myself by only putting single gang boxes in     With the pending arrival of new gear I needed more outlets and surge protection.  I heard good things about the new PS Audio gear and exchanged a few emails with Paul McGown about what would be best.  I asked about getting 2 duets ($600 used from Agon) so I could have digital and analog gear on different circuits or getting a Quintet.  Paul said nothing beats getting the digital and analog on different circuits, but he said the Quintet would be best due to slightly better filtering, antenna and DTV surge protection.  So I went with the Quintet since it would do a little more at a better price ($475).

My wife saw me pull it out of the box and couldn't believe the size of this "power strip".  It really is huge and heavy!  I don't really think it did much for the DVD picture quality, but it does provide a blacker background for the audio.  I highs seem slightly more extended as well.  I haven't had it long enough to do much else with it and it hasn't made me a total believer in passive power conditioning, but I must admit there is something different.

So far I have the turntable, phono pre, DVD player, receiver, and DTV box plugged into it.  Looking forward to getting my 2 channel tube pre this week.

SC

What does a blacker background for the audio mean? And what is the theory behind this new power conditioner?

[scervin]

The behind the soundstage it is now cleaner, like nothing there (more depth).  I'm guessing this is due to high freq. noise being eliminated.  I see no decrease in dynamics and increased air on the top end. 

Nothing new to the power strip.  Has filtering, outlet isolation, surge, spike, etc.  I'm very happy with the purchase and would think the Duet would be just as nice.

www.PSaudio.com

[Church-Audio]

The behind the soundstage it is now cleaner, like nothing there (more depth).  I'm guessing this is due to high freq. noise being eliminated.  I see no decrease in dynamics and increased air on the top end. 

Nothing new to the power strip.  Has filtering, outlet isolation, surge, spike, etc.  I'm very happy with the purchase and would think the Duet would be just as nice.

www.PSaudio.com

Thats really cool to bad the theory is all wrong... There is very little high frequencey that gets in to your equipment from the AC line why? Because the power transfomrer inside your AC powered equipment does not have a very good bandwidth..... But for $500 it sure looks nice.

Chris

[nickgregory]

The behind the soundstage it is now cleaner, like nothing there (more depth).  I'm guessing this is due to high freq. noise being eliminated.  I see no decrease in dynamics and increased air on the top end. 

Nothing new to the power strip.  Has filtering, outlet isolation, surge, spike, etc.  I'm very happy with the purchase and would think the Duet would be just as nice.

www.PSaudio.com

Thats really cool to bad the theory is all wrong... There is very little high frequencey that gets in to your equipment from the AC line why? Because the power transfomrer inside your AC powered equipment does not have a very good bandwidth..... But for $500 it sure looks nice.

Chris

yeah power conditioners are a big hoax in the audio world  .....I have heard good (blue circle) and average (monster) and they both make a difference...

The behind the soundstage it is now cleaner, like nothing there (more depth).  I'm guessing this is due to high freq. noise being eliminated.  I see no decrease in dynamics and increased air on the top end. 

Nothing new to the power strip.  Has filtering, outlet isolation, surge, spike, etc.  I'm very happy with the purchase and would think the Duet would be just as nice.

www.PSaudio.com

thanks Scott...I probably need to get a Duet...

[scervin]

The behind the soundstage it is now cleaner, like nothing there (more depth).  I'm guessing this is due to high freq. noise being eliminated.  I see no decrease in dynamics and increased air on the top end. 

Nothing new to the power strip.  Has filtering, outlet isolation, surge, spike, etc.  I'm very happy with the purchase and would think the Duet would be just as nice.

www.PSaudio.com

Thats really cool to bad the theory is all wrong... There is very little high frequencey that gets in to your equipment from the AC line why? Because the power transfomrer inside your AC powered equipment does not have a very good bandwidth..... But for $500 it sure looks nice.

Chris

Well I guess that very little noise is being filtered (high or low). The digital gear is always a problem and the one reason I wanted on a dedicated line and it helped.  I figured I would keep the digital plugged into the dedicated outlet even with the Quintet, but tried it with the digital gear plugged in and it sounds just as good.

Some are of the opinion that these things don't work and I was as well, but this thing helped my system.  I will be sending it off to a guy to measure the line distortion with and without dimmer switches on (line noise).  I will post the results when I get them.

And yes it does look cool!

[Church-Audio]

The behind the soundstage it is now cleaner, like nothing there (more depth).  I'm guessing this is due to high freq. noise being eliminated.  I see no decrease in dynamics and increased air on the top end. 

Nothing new to the power strip.  Has filtering, outlet isolation, surge, spike, etc.  I'm very happy with the purchase and would think the Duet would be just as nice.

www.PSaudio.com

That's really cool to bad the theory is all wrong... There is very little high frequency that gets in to your equipment from the AC line why? Because the power transformer inside your AC powered equipment does not have a very good bandwidth..... But for $500 it sure looks nice.

Chris

yeah power conditioners are a big hoax in the audio world  .....I have heard good (blue circle) and average (monster) and they both make a difference...

The behind the soundstage it is now cleaner, like nothing there (more depth).  I'm guessing this is due to high freq. noise being eliminated.  I see no decrease in dynamics and increased air on the top end. 

Nothing new to the power strip.  Has filtering, outlet isolation, surge, spike, etc.  I'm very happy with the purchase and would think the Duet would be just as nice.

www.PSaudio.com

thanks Scott...I probably need to get a Duet...

Actually I have been using power conditioners for years from Companies like ETA,Triplight..... Real power conditioners... They dont claim to make your sound stage darker they just work.. I never said anything about power conditioners. What I did say was there theory of high frequency attenuation was wrong...

Chris

[Tim]

Actually I have been using power conditioners for years from Companies like ETA,Triplight..... Real power conditioners... They dont claim to make your sound stage darker they just work..

could you define what you mean by "work"? Thanks

[nickgregory]

Actually I have been using power conditioners for years from Companies like ETA,Triplight..... Real power conditioners... They dont claim to make your sound stage darker they just work..

could you define what you mean by "work"? Thanks

I think the inference is pretty clear Tim

So glad that Tripp Lite and ETA are the reference standard in power conditioning....someone should tell the rest of the audio world so they can stop wasting their time and $$$ with PS Audio, Audio Magic, Panamax, Richard Gray and the like

[Church-Audio]

Actually I have been using power conditioners for years from Companies like ETA,Triplight..... Real power conditioners... They dont claim to make your sound stage darker they just work..

could you define what you mean by "work"? Thanks

I mean they actually condition the power coming in preventing spikes and brown outs and sagging. They dont claim to filter out things to increase your soundstage. I think if you listen to anything long enough you can start to hear differences.. I wish that someone could do a sample recording of a device plugged into the "magic" power bar and a recording with the device not plugged into the "magic" power bar and we can all have a objective listen. I think its a shame how company's provide magic solutions with no real data to back them up. No objective listing tests. I make audio products, I make some preamps and some microphones. I am not claiming that anyone of my products will or can improve your "sound stage" but if I did you can bet I would have blind listing tests to back my claims up...

I too am not looking to get into a debate. This is what I believe not everyone thinks the same as me. Some people believe in things that I dont. That does not make them wrong, but I just wish before people go spending money on expensive power bars that someone do an objective test, so others dont end up wasting there hard earned money. But that's just me.

I am sorry to have commented on this, I can see we dont agree that's unfortunate. I was not trying to call anyone here stupid. Just pointing out a few things..

Good luck with your systems if it makes you happy to buy these things great! I would love to hear a recording sample of the differences you are experiencing!

Chris

[Brian Skalinder]

I mean they actually condition the power coming in preventing spikes and brown outs and sagging. They dont claim to filter out things to increase your soundstage.

You make mics & preamps, Chris.  Could power spikes, brownouts, and sagging potentially impact the mics' / preamp's performance?  And could conditioning the power remove those issues and potentially stabilize / improve the mics' / preamp's performance?

[nickgregory]

I have done an objective test...listening to my respective playback prior to adding a monster power conditioner in one and an audio magic in the other.  And in both cases, the soundstage was widened, the background went to complete silence and the clarity of the frequencies, specifically in the upper range was increased.

[Church-Audio]

I mean they actually condition the power coming in preventing spikes and brown outs and sagging. They dont claim to filter out things to increase your soundstage.

You make mics & preamps, Chris.  Could power spikes, brownouts, and sagging potentially impact the mics' / preamp's performance?  And could conditioning the power remove those issues and potentially stabilize / improve the mics' / preamp's performance?

No.

Because my preamps work on batteries 

But seriously I would love to hear some samples of the before and after so I too could hear difference.

I think its great to make cool products its even cooler when you can prove they actually do something to improve the sound of your gear. I wonder if we could do a simple test? Can someone record a cd player with its digital output into a digital recording device and upload before and after samples so we can put it to a vote? I think that would be very interesting who knows what the results would be.

Chris

[Church-Audio]

I have done an objective test...listening to my respective playback prior to adding a monster power conditioner in one and an audio magic in the other.  And in both cases, the soundstage was widened, the background went to complete silence and the clarity of the frequencies, specifically in the upper range was increased.

So when you did the test did you have an A/B switch to toggle back and forth? or did you have to hook everything up again? after doing that how can you be sure of what you heard? I am a sound engineer I would have a very hard time telling the difference after so much time had elapsed.

[nickgregory]

I had been listening to my system long enough that I knew how certain discs sounded, and as a result could pick out the improvement.  Is it subtle?  Absolutely….you have to know the disc that you are listening to and how it sounds on that system intimately in order to be able to hear a difference when it comes to the soundstage and the clarity.

The simpler test is to plug the system into the wall and turn the volume up…I heard faint static, or noise in the background.  Upon hooking up the Audio Magic or the Monster unit, the “noise” went away….complete silence by my ears…a black background as it is commonly referred to as.

With regards to your comment on being a sound engineer and you couldn’t hear a difference…there are more than a few experts in the field who can…

From stereophile on PS Audio units:

“Listening to the system with AC coming directly from the wall socket rather than the P300, I was struck by how comparatively lifeless and flat the music sounded. It was almost as if someone had turned down the volume while I wasn't looking”

http://stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/460/

From Soundstage on Audio Magic units:

“With the Audio Magic Stealth, "bass had new authority" -- " a meaty vividness and three-dimensionality about it that was amazing"; there was "also now a sense of expansive space that was completely new"

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/audiomagic_stealth.htm

But hey, if you don’t hear the difference, then don’t spend the money…given the fact you’re a sound engineer I am sure that your opinion based on no practical experience is more sound than mine (and others quoted above) who actually have given their ears a chance to make the distinction.

[Church-Audio]

I had been listening to my system long enough that I knew how certain discs sounded, and as a result could pick out the improvement.  Is it subtle?  Absolutely….you have to know the disc that you are listening to and how it sounds on that system intimately in order to be able to hear a difference when it comes to the soundstage and the clarity.

The simpler test is to plug the system into the wall and turn the volume up…I heard faint static, or noise in the background.  Upon hooking up the Audio Magic or the Monster unit, the “noise” went away….complete silence by my ears…a black background as it is commonly referred to as.

With regards to your comment on being a sound engineer and you couldn’t hear a difference…there are more than a few experts in the field who can…

From stereophile on PS Audio units:

“Listening to the system with AC coming directly from the wall socket rather than the P300, I was struck by how comparatively lifeless and flat the music sounded. It was almost as if someone had turned down the volume while I wasn't looking”

http://stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/460/

From Soundstage on Audio Magic units:

“With the Audio Magic Stealth, "bass had new authority" -- " a meaty vividness and three-dimensionality about it that was amazing"; there was "also now a sense of expansive space that was completely new"

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/audiomagic_stealth.htm

But hey, if you don’t hear the difference, then don’t spend the money…given the fact you’re a sound engineer I am sure that your opinion based on no practical experience is more sound than mine (and others quoted above) who actually have given their ears a chance to make the distinction.

Hey that's great news. All these people cant be wrong.. Even though some of them are actually selling advertising space to the same company they are reviewing  I would love to hear a recording made with this power bar so we can all here the difference it makes. Could you do one with or without? for us all to hear?

Hey I am a skeptic dont get me wrong but, I would love to know if there actually is a real difference if there is great. If not then hey that's too bad. Why dont we do the test I proposed?

Ps.. its not so much that I could not hear the difference if there are differences I will hear them. Its more of the fact that once you allow a some time to elapse how can you be 100% sure of what your hearing. When ever a speaker company does A/B tests they use a A/B box so that you can switch back and forth so you can hear the difference. That can not be done with this product so it makes it very hard to know for 100% sure. I think under these circumstances I would prefer a recording test to see if we can hear the differences I can then A/B them my self and listen under a controlled environment.

Chris

[Tim]

Thanks

Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 12 hours.

[Brian Skalinder]

No.

Because my preamps work on batteries 

But seriously I would love to hear some samples of the before and after so I too could hear difference.

Seriously...if your mics & preamps ran on AC (as many preamps do), could their performance suffer from power spikes, brownouts, and sagging?

[nickgregory]

Hey that's great news. All these people cant be wrong.. Even though some of them are actually selling advertising space to the same company they are reviewing  I would love to hear a recording made with this power bar so we can all here the difference it makes. Could you do one with or without? for us all to hear?

Hey I am a skeptic dont get me wrong but, I would love to know if there actually is a real difference if there is great. If not then hey that's too bad. Why dont we do the test I proposed?

Chris

I was merely calling out people who had published and heard the same thing I did.  Regardless, there are other folks on this site that have heard the same thing I have...when introducing power conditioning to their plaback...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=57108.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=81433.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71330.0.html

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,35697.0.html

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,14234.0.html

and no one here is trying to sell anything...

bottom line, I believe my ears, and others who have actually made the effort to listen for themselves, over a theory any day of the week.

As for taping it and making it available to you...sorry, not interested...

[scervin]

Could I get measurements taken with the GM achen head which was developed to measure sound quality (sones)....probably not.  I don't claim to be an expert in power, I'm more of an expert when it comes to thin wall automotive structures.  In my line of work (structural analysis) when I see a sine wave filled with little gremlins and not smooth (maybe squared off) I have noise in the model that can either be filtered out (SAE 60Hz filter) or the model needs a little tweak.  I tend to tweak using different element formulations, mesh size at critical ares, etc. first and then clean it up with a filter.  I’ve taken a similar approach to the HT, first putting everything on its own circuit then filtering where needed.  Just happens that the Quintet solved a problem (required more outlets) and improved the rest of the system.  I’ve seen AC waveforms before and after some power conditioners and they work (dimmers and fridges on the line).  Power regenerators (Exactpower, PS Audio, APS) worked best in providing a pure waveform

Funny you mention Tripp Lite as that is what this "magic strip" replaced (6 outlet version).  I needed it again at work.  Heard claims the PS Audio stuff worked well.  The Quintet sounds better to ME and if I could measure this I would, but would measurements really help when it comes to something as subjective as good sound? 

I’m not going to debate it anymore either.  At our local meets it comes up once a year and we have to do the DBT all over again.  Some hear a difference and some don’t (until we use the battery powered system).  “Magic” power products always spark debate and I’m sorry I don’t agree with Chris.  I’m not telling all to spend $2K on the best power system available, but if someone is looking I would say a used “power conditioner” from Agon MIGHT make their system sound better to THEIR ears.

I will be connecting the antenna to it this weekend to see if it helps a couple channels I have problems with.

[Church-Audio]

No.

Because my preamps work on batteries 

But seriously I would love to hear some samples of the before and after so I too could hear difference.

Seriously...if your mics & preamps ran on AC (as many preamps do), could their performance suffer from power spikes, brownouts, and sagging?

Yes for sure 100% yes to your question. But I dont think they have an autotransformer in side that little power bar to stabilize the voltage its too small So they are just filtering the power.. My whole problem with that is filtering the AC does not do much when its already going to be filtered inside the first stage of the power supply inside your stereo gear, Ether by the switching power supply that generates noise that no power bar can attenuate *because its after the fact * or the bandwidth limiting power transformer inside gear that does not have a switching power supply *after the power bar * so what are we really trying to clear up?

Chris

[Church-Audio]

Hey that's great news. All these people cant be wrong.. Even though some of them are actually selling advertising space to the same company they are reviewing  I would love to hear a recording made with this power bar so we can all here the difference it makes. Could you do one with or without? for us all to hear?

Hey I am a skeptic dont get me wrong but, I would love to know if there actually is a real difference if there is great. If not then hey that's too bad. Why dont we do the test I proposed?

Chris

I was merely calling out people who had published and heard the same thing I did.  Regardless, there are other folks on this site that have heard the same thing I have...when introducing power conditioning to their plaback...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=57108.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=81433.0

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71330.0.html

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,35697.0.html

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,14234.0.html

and no one here is trying to sell anything...

bottom line, I believe my ears, and others who have actually made the effort to listen for themselves, over a theory any day of the week.

As for taping it and making it available to you...sorry, not interested...

I am not accusing anyone of trying to sell something. I was just stating an opinion. That's what this board is all about right?  I would still like to hear a recording made with this device.

[nickgregory]

I am not accusing anyone of trying to sell something. I was just stating an opinion. That's what this board is all about right?  I would still like to hear a recording made with this device.

was just responding to:

Hey that's great news. All these people cant be wrong.. Even though some of them are actually selling advertising space to the same company they are reviewing 

as for stating an opinion, absolutely...I am stating my opinion based on actual experience, and what I hear.  I dont have unlimited $$$s and wouldnt invest in power conditioning if I didnt hear a difference...regardless of what some theory states

[Church-Audio]

Could I get measurements taken with the GM achen head which was developed to measure sound quality (sones)....probably not.  I don't claim to be an expert in power, I'm more of an expert when it comes to thin wall automotive structures.  In my line of work (structural analysis) when I see a sine wave filled with little gremlins and not smooth (maybe squared off) I have noise in the model that can either be filtered out (SAE 60Hz filter) or the model needs a little tweak.  I tend to tweak using different element formulations, mesh size at critical ares, etc. first and then clean it up with a filter.  I’ve taken a similar approach to the HT, first putting everything on its own circuit then filtering where needed.  Just happens that the Quintet solved a problem (required more outlets) and improved the rest of the system.  I’ve seen AC waveforms before and after some power conditioners and they work (dimmers and fridges on the line).  Power regenerators (Exactpower, PS Audio, APS) worked best in providing a pure waveform

Funny you mention Tripp Lite as that is what this "magic strip" replaced (6 outlet version).  I needed it again at work.  Heard claims the PS Audio stuff worked well.  The Quintet sounds better to ME and if I could measure this I would, but would measurements really help when it comes to something as subjective as good sound? 

I’m not going to debate it anymore either.  At our local meets it comes up once a year and we have to do the DBT all over again.  Some hear a difference and some don’t (until we use the battery powered system).  “Magic” power products always spark debate and I’m sorry I don’t agree with Chris.  I’m not telling all to spend $2K on the best power system available, but if someone is looking I would say a used “power conditioner” from Agon MIGHT make their system sound better to THEIR ears.

I will be connecting the antenna to it this weekend to see if it helps a couple channels I have problems with.

 My argument was not that power conditioners did not work.. They clearly do but what are the real advantages when it comes to the subjective quality of sound.

PS.. I never said I wanted to analyze the sound lol I wanted to listen to a recording made with this equipment and without. Surly if it makes that much of a difference then it will be quite obvious in the recording as to what one contains the power bar and what signal does not.... I dont think everything should be analyzed as some have stated I mostly use my ears with my company. I would still like to hear a sample. I am not trying to get people angry I just wanted to state an opinion I think we can do that without having to get personal or be unprofessional how can we learn about new technology if we cant talk about it?



Chris

[Church-Audio]

I am not accusing anyone of trying to sell something. I was just stating an opinion. That's what this board is all about right?  I would still like to hear a recording made with this device.

was just responding to:

Hey that's great news. All these people cant be wrong.. Even though some of them are actually selling advertising space to the same company they are reviewing 

as for stating an opinion, absolutely...I am stating my opinion based on actual experience, and what I hear.  I dont have unlimited $$$s and wouldnt invest in power conditioning if I didnt hear a difference...regardless of what some theory states

I am sorry when I made that statement I was referring to the companies you mentioned that did some of the reviews you linked to. I have no doubt you heard something why else would you spend $500. My problem is its very hard to switch a power bar out like that and really be able to be objective about the differences. With out the ability to do a A/B switch test. I am not saying you do not have the skills.. I dont know you at all. I am saying is I think it would be very difficult. I by no means want to imply that your not right. I dont know. I am saying some of the Theory om the website I dont 100% agree with but who am I? Is there a difference? I dont know. Lets set that all aside and just do a simple recording test. I would be very interested in hearing the files. I understand if you dont want to do it. Its very time consuming and to be honest why would you want to do a test for me, someone you dont even know. I would do it for the other people out there that maybe could use a good product if this is it why not?

Chris

[Roving Sign]

You guys need one of these...this way you can get a better look at your power, see what, if any, anomalies occur...

I have one somewhere...pretty cool little device...has a little LED wand that you hook up to it and download the data into a little program that analyzes/organizes the data...

http://www.microdaq.com/acr/powerwatch/index.php

Disclaimer : I use the Chang LightSpeed...

[nickgregory]

I would be very interested in hearing the files. I understand if you dont want to do it. Its very time consuming and to be honest why would you want to do a test for me, someone you dont even know. I would do it for the other people out there that maybe could use a good product if this is it why not?

has nothing to do with it.  I have a 3 week old at home, a full time job and really dont have the time to do it.  Also add to it that I have heard the difference and it wont prove anything to me.

As I stated earlier...

The simpler test is to plug the system into the wall and turn the volume up…I heard faint static, or noise in the background.  Upon hooking up the Audio Magic or the Monster unit, the noise went away….complete silence by my ears…a black background as it is commonly referred to as.

Most peoples stereo's exhibit this until they introduce some level of "clean power" be it a dedicated circuit, a power conditioner or a regenerator...

[Roving Sign]

I mean they actually condition the power coming in preventing spikes and brown outs and sagging. They dont claim to filter out things to increase your soundstage.

You make mics & preamps, Chris.  Could power spikes, brownouts, and sagging potentially impact the mics' / preamp's performance?  And could conditioning the power remove those issues and potentially stabilize / improve the mics' / preamp's performance?

Yes - but you have demonstrate that such conditions exist prior to introducing such a device...?

I posted the link to that info logger...All you have to do is run it on your outlet for a week - and then run it off whatever Power line conditioner you might have - you should see a difference...(or better yet - get TWO and compare the output)

It shouldn't really be a mystery...I know those Info Logger things are $alty - but I was always surprised the high-end audio guys didn't want them...considering how much they spend on shit like Shun Mook Mpingo discs...

[Church-Audio]

I would be very interested in hearing the files. I understand if you dont want to do it. Its very time consuming and to be honest why would you want to do a test for me, someone you dont even know. I would do it for the other people out there that maybe could use a good product if this is it why not?

has nothing to do with it.  I have a 3 week old at home, a full time job and really dont have the time to do it.  Also add to it that I have heard the difference and it wont prove anything to me.

As I stated earlier...

The simpler test is to plug the system into the wall and turn the volume up…I heard faint static, or noise in the background.  Upon hooking up the Audio Magic or the Monster unit, the noise went away….complete silence by my ears…a black background as it is commonly referred to as.

Most peoples stereo's exhibit this until they introduce some level of "clean power" be it a dedicated circuit, a power conditioner or a regenerator...

I remember those days I am sure someone else will make the sample recordings... I understand your situation 100% Enjoy your new baby! I totally agree that clean power is important. That was never a part of my argument, my argument is this how come you have to pay $500 for a power bar? with nothing more then a companies SAYSO that it improves the quality of the audio devices connected to it. And if you do have to pay that much maybe they should have audio samples on line to convince people of the quality differences of the before and after?

Chris

[Church-Audio]

I mean they actually condition the power coming in preventing spikes and brown outs and sagging. They dont claim to filter out things to increase your soundstage.

You make mics & preamps, Chris.  Could power spikes, brownouts, and sagging potentially impact the mics' / preamp's performance?  And could conditioning the power remove those issues and potentially stabilize / improve the mics' / preamp's performance?

Yes - but you have demonstrate that such conditions exist prior to introducing such a device...?

I posted the link to that info logger...All you have to do is run it on your outlet for a week - and then run it off whatever Power line conditioner you might have - you should see a difference...(or better yet - get TWO and compare the output)

It shouldn't really be a mystery...I know those Info Logger things are $alty - but I was always surprised the high-end audio guys didn't want them...considering how much they spend shit like Shun Mook Mpingo discs...

Respectfully the point that these guys are making. And I dont know if its true or not. Is that this device makes a difference in the sound quality of there sound systems.. I say great, if that's so make a recording of the before and after via a cd player and a digital recording device so we can all hear that difference and lets do some A/B tests. I dont think anyone here would argue that clean power is not important. It is.. but what are the benefits to the "soundstage" ? and can this clean power difference be heard in audio equipment that already filters out most of the line noise in the first place?


Chris

[RebelRebel]

Chris Church, I just wish someone would develop a grammatical cohesion filter for your posts.  

I am a huge skeptic too. Stereophile always contains one or two items that make me laugh a bit. I was very surprised to hear a marked difference in my own listening experience after using a power conditioner. The one I was using was borrowed , so I am currently shopping for one of my own..(I think that the PS Audio may be the one). It shouldn;t have been a surprise , given the fact that they have been used for years in Pro Audio and Live Sound applications. It seems as if you are on a crusade to convert the "audiophile" folks to your way of thinking, but why bother? Audio is such a personal thing, we all hear things so differently...who is anyone to say that this person or that is wrong?? After recently getting my own decent playback system together I have to say that my eyes have been opened to things I never would have thought possible, and as such I have been pretty humbled . Granted there are some things such as shakti stones, or tube-0-later lacquer, or altman acoustic panels that I still have a difficult time understanding, but if someone hears differences using those items, good on them. Audio is one of those areas in which science and logic are sometimes at odds with the results of subjective experience.(religion is another) Music/audio is too great a thing to be reduced to formulas and theories..why take all of the fun out of it? ..let folks enjoy the improvements they have coming, Chris. You dont have to save everyone from audiophilia..hell, shopping for things that will make a difference in a system is fun. Live and let live, man.

[Roving Sign]

If I can find my Info Logger(and the wand and software ), I'll run it for a day on my shitty 80 year old apartment wiring, and then put it on my Chang LightSpeed - If there is any data that shows the device is cleaning up the power - Ultimately - that's good enough for me!!! Who cares if it sounds better or not...? That's almost secondary in the face of empirical data...

[Church-Audio]

Chris Church, I just wish someone would develop a grammatical cohesion filter for your posts.  

I am a huge skeptic too. Stereophile always contains one or two items that make me laugh a bit. I was very surprised to hear a marked difference in my own listening experience after using a power conditioner. The one I was using was borrowed , so I am currently shopping for one of my own..(I think that the PS Audio may be the one). It shouldn;t have been a surprise , given the fact that they have been used for years in Pro Audio and Live Sound applications. It seems as if you are on a crusade to convert the "audiophile" folks to your way of thinking, but why bother? Audio is such a personal thing, we all hear things so differently...who is anyone to say that this person or that is wrong?? After recently getting my own decent playback system together I have to say that my eyes have been opened to things I never would have thought possible, and as such I have been pretty humbled . Granted there are some things such as shakti stones, or tube-0-later lacquer, or altman acoustic panels that I still have a difficult time understanding, but if someone hears differences using those items, good on them. Audio is one of those areas in which science and logic are sometimes at odds with the results of subjective experience.(religion is another) Music/audio is too great a thing to be reduced to formulas and theories..why take all of the fun out of it? ..let folks enjoy the improvements they have coming, Chris. You dont have to save everyone from audiophilia..hell, shopping for things that will make a difference in a system is fun. Live and let live, man.

LOL

Thanks that means alot comming from you. 
Mic SLUT.

[Brian Skalinder]

The simpler test is to plug the system into the wall and turn the volume up…I heard faint static, or noise in the background.  Upon hooking up the Audio Magic or the Monster unit, the noise went away….complete silence by my ears…a black background as it is commonly referred to as.

Most peoples stereo's exhibit this until they introduce some level of "clean power" be it a dedicated circuit, a power conditioner or a regenerator...

I had some nasty and fairly loud background noise before I moved my playback to the other side of the room and switched outlets.  What's different between the two?  Dunno.  But I do know the noise is dramatically reduced.  Could a power conditioner on the other outlet have achieved the same impact?  Dunno.  But it doesn't seem unreasonable that it might.

I dont think anyone here would argue that clean power is not important. It is.. but what are the benefits to the "soundstage" ?

For example, others have mentioned "blackening" of the background.  The audible end result of this blackening may appear as an improvement in soundstage because low level detail is no longer masked by noise.

and can this clean power difference be heard in audio equipment that already filters out most of the line noise in the first place?

You're assuming the audio equipment effectively filters most of the line noise in the first place.  As with all playback / recording gear - and you know this better than many here - designers and manufacturers cut corners in order to achieve a specific price point and target audience.  The cleaner the power, the less filtering is required by the playback gear.  Seems reasonable that the more filtering performed by a better filter, and the less performed by a mediocre filter, the better the overall filtering.

I say great, if that's so make a recording of the before and after via a cd player and a digital recording device so we can all hear that difference and lets do some A/B tests.

Respectfully, I think the best way for you to do the A/B test is to go buy one - or several of varying quality / feature sets - and see for yourself.

[Church-Audio]

The simpler test is to plug the system into the wall and turn the volume up…I heard faint static, or noise in the background.  Upon hooking up the Audio Magic or the Monster unit, the noise went away….complete silence by my ears…a black background as it is commonly referred to as.

Most peoples stereo's exhibit this until they introduce some level of "clean power" be it a dedicated circuit, a power conditioner or a regenerator...

I had some nasty and fairly loud background noise before I moved my playback to the other side of the room and switched outlets.  What's different between the two?  Dunno.  But I do know the noise is dramatically reduced.  Could a power conditioner on the other outlet have achieved the same impact?  Dunno.  But it doesn't seem unreasonable that it might.

I dont think anyone here would argue that clean power is not important. It is.. but what are the benefits to the "soundstage" ?

For example, others have mentioned "blackening" of the background.  The audible end result of this blackening may appear as an improvement in soundstage because low level detail is no longer masked by noise.

and can this clean power difference be heard in audio equipment that already filters out most of the line noise in the first place?

You're assuming the audio equipment effectively filters most of the line noise in the first place.  As with all playback / recording gear - and you know this better than many here - designers and manufacturers cut corners in order to achieve a specific price point and target audience.  The cleaner the power, the less filtering is required by the playback gear.  Seems reasonable that the more filtering performed by a better filter, and the less performed by a mediocre filter, the better the overall filtering.

I say great, if that's so make a recording of the before and after via a cd player and a digital recording device so we can all hear that difference and lets do some A/B tests.

Respectfully, I think the best way for you to do the A/B test is to go buy one - or several of varying quality / feature sets - and see for yourself.

I wish I could go out any buy one for my self but after my purchase of my DPA 4090 my wife said I am cut off for this month... So I have to wait until next month to buy it.. I dont want anyone to misunderstand me I do believe that some of these things actually work, I dont know what the overall effect on sound is though. Decreased noise floor is a good thing. I can see how that would decrease harmonics and increase your signal to noise ratio. My thoughts are if your gear is that noisy maybe its time for an upgrade?

[Brian Skalinder]

I wish I could go out any buy one for my self but after my purchase of my DPA 4090 my wife said I am cut off for this month... So I have to wait until next month to buy it..

Heh...I know how that goes.

I dont want anyone to misunderstand me I do believe that some of these things actually work, I dont know what the overall effect on sound is though. Decreased noise floor is a good thing. I can see how that would decrease harmonics and increase your signal to noise ratio. My thoughts are if your gear is that noisy maybe its time for an upgrade?

For me, that's precisely the point - I view adding a power conditioner as an upgrade.  In other words:  why upgrade to a new pre/amp with better filtering capabilities when I <1> like my current pre/amp and can <2> buy an external filter to improve the overall system.

[Church-Audio]

I wish I could go out any buy one for my self but after my purchase of my DPA 4090 my wife said I am cut off for this month... So I have to wait until next month to buy it..

Heh...I know how that goes.

I dont want anyone to misunderstand me I do believe that some of these things actually work, I dont know what the overall effect on sound is though. Decreased noise floor is a good thing. I can see how that would decrease harmonics and increase your signal to noise ratio. My thoughts are if your gear is that noisy maybe its time for an upgrade?

For me, that's precisely the point - I view adding a power conditioner as an upgrade.  In other words:  why upgrade to a new pre/amp with better filtering capabilities when I <1> like my current pre/amp and can <2> buy an external filter to improve the overall system.

I have no problem with filters if they work that's great... but I do have a problem with a company charging $500 and not really being able to prove that there product does help with the soundstage... I could make a product that could help people grow more hair but if I cant prove it what am I selling? A dream or a valid product?

[scervin]

I appreciate comments from both sides and I think we must all agree to disagree on the subject.  I should have known this topic would create a thread similar to those on other boards.

I ask that the TS Community accept my apology for starting this thread.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

SC