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Author Topic: Please Help  (Read 8377 times)

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Offline TNJazz

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2007, 01:48:52 PM »
Ok...could you please explain what a modded unit is?

Several gear dealers offer modifications to the stock units.  This is to upgrade internal components and make an overall better sound.  The trade off is that some of these dealers require you to buy the unit from them in order to receive the modifications.  That means you'll pay pretty much full retail price, PLUS several hundred dollars for these mods.  This voids the manufacturers warranty of course, but the retailer should cover the balance of the warranty for their work anyway.

These mods are well known on this site, but outside of TS they're not thought of in nearly the same high regard.  The mods do make a noticeable improvement on some gear though.

There are two schools of thought:  1) buy cheaper and/or inferior gear and spend hundreds of dollars to modify it so it sounds good, or 2) buy something that sounds good right out of the box.

If you ever need to sell your gear to recoup your investment, guess which one is the better choice?
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2007, 01:54:27 PM »
Ok...could you please explain what a modded unit is?

Chris Busman / Cascade Media and Oade Bros modify stock recorders. The modifications void the manufacturer's warranty, but both OB and CB/CM offer some type of warranty on the gear they mod.

Most manufacturers cut corners on the design of their recorders in order to keep costs down.  One of the places they compromise on quality is the innards of the recorder, usually the analog signal path (i.e. preamp).  And sometimes the analog signal path (preamp) is not designed for the type of recording we do - it's often designed for Electronic News Gathering (ENG) or some such.  This sometimes results in the recorders having a gain structure that doesn't match well with our needs, e.g. inability to handle very loud sound sources (like a concert).  So what does one do when a stock recorder doesn't fully satisfy one's wishes, whether in its stock design or subjective sound quality?

There are really two options available to someone if they're unhappy with the stock sound of these recorders:  <1>  upgrade the preamp and/or ADC by purchasing outboard gear, or <2>  upgrade the recorder's own preamp / ADC by replacing the internal parts with better parts.

Typically, the CB/CM & OB modifications upgrade the analog signal path in the recorder to reduce noise, improve detail, and to some degree change the sonic signature of the stock unit.  Many of us think these modded recorders sound -great-, and they're a way to achieve very high quality sound at a fraction of the cost of outboard preamps and ADCs.

As noted by others, there isn't a huge market for these modded recorders outside TS, so resale may not be as good as the outboard gear.  But then again, if we all had the cash up front to buy all the outboard gear we wanted, we probably wouldn't bother with modded recorders.  I look at it as a good way to get great sound on a lowish budget, not necessarily as a replacement for top-end gear that sounds great stock.

That's not to say the stock units sound terrible - they generally don't.  I usually recommend someone start with a stock unit, see if they like it, and then decide later whether to have it modded.

Also as far as mics I would prefer something small that could sometimes be clipped on a hat or something. I had looked into Core Sound years ago but never bought any. Are any of those a good choice?

Adding the requirement that the mics clip to your hat will drastically reduce your options.  Most of the mics noted below are not stealthable.  The only possible option noted below that I see are the AKG 391s with active ables.  These are not small enough to clip to a hat, but they could be worn -in- a hat.  However, you'll still have to carry the mic bodies.  So you'll have the mic caps + a length of cable for each cap + the mic bodies + whatever preamp/ADC/recorder you choose (might be all-in-one, like the FR2LE and others noted already).

I'll let others speak to hat-clippable mics, as I'm not terribly familiar with them at that price point.
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Offline Girlygirl

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2007, 05:54:06 PM »
Thanks Brian and TNJazz. I got a little lost with what you are saying Brian. I am really trying to understand all the lingo such as CB/CM & OB. but it just doesn't make sense unless spoken in basic terms. I am learning a great deal from all of you though.

So, I think I prefer a stock unit with a great pair of smallish mics. They don't have to clip to a hat but I had done that in the past and it worked for me. I want to try to avoid all the questions with security if at all possible. I also go to a lot of folk shows and would like to be somewhat discreet.

What stock units would be easy to use, just out of the box, with a quality result? I don't want to go with a modded unit, although I don't have to use the mics that come with the recording unit. I just don't have the knowledge to make mods and would do best with a simple unit.

Keep making sugggestions please..... :D

Offline willyp523

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2007, 06:01:21 PM »
Just my opinion...but it might be wise to look into buying a refurbished iRiver H120, H140 or H320 with Rockbox firmware for a recording device.  I've recorded a couple benefit shows where the IG played and know their enthusiastic fans can blow up your levels.  With AGC safety clip of the Rockbox you will have some assurance of not clipping.  You can record in CD quality 16/44.1 and the battery life should more than meet your requirements.  You can buy a refurbished iRiver on ebay for around $150 from a dealer named "roadpal".  No affiliation, just a recent satisfied customer.  This will keep you far below your budget...but you could use the money saved on future upgrades if desired.

As for your wish for clippable mics...the DPA 4061 or Coresound HEB's *might* be the best sounding.  I believe they sell for around $900-$1,000 but they'll probably pick up more crowd noise than a cardioid mic.

Clippable cardioid mics...the Sound Professionals have a bunch of 'em, $350 or less 
     http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=0

I'd recommend looking into Chris Church's cardioid mics and pre-amp.  Nice sounding and very reasonably priced.
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Offline Girlygirl

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2007, 06:01:49 PM »
You are going to get a lot of different opinions.  Particularly about the big ticket items like mics, pre, a>d and recorder.

In my opinion your weakest link is mics.  You could start off with just a recorder and patch to see what you REALLY like.  I would suggest going over to archive.org and listening to a bunch of different mic types.  Particularly ones where there are multiple sources from the same show.

Here are some suggestions with estimates that would keep you around the $2000 range and get you a very nice rig.

Mics:
Neumann 184 kit: $900

Recorder:
Iriver IHP20 :$120

Pre-Amp:
Lunatec V2: $750

A>D:
Sony SBM-1: $250

Don't forget about power, cables, stand, clamp, bar, shockmounts, and a bag.

Excuse my lack of knowledge but what does the Pre-Amp do? and what are A>D's???? I have only recorded with a minidisc and external mic recently. Years ago I used a portable tape recorder with external mics. Thanks for your assistance.

Offline Girlygirl

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2007, 06:09:05 PM »
Just my opinion...but it might be wise to look into buying a refurbished iRiver H120, H140 or H320 with Rockbox firmware for a recording device.  I've recorded a couple benefit shows where the IG played and know their enthusiastic fans can blow up your levels.  With AGC safety clip of the Rockbox you will have some assurance of not clipping.  You can record in CD quality 16/44.1 and the battery life should more than meet your requirements.  You can buy a refurbished iRiver on ebay for around $150 from a dealer named "roadpal".  No affiliation, just a recent satisfied customer.  This will keep you far below your budget...but you could use the money saved on future upgrades if desired.

As for your wish for clippable mics...the DPA 4061 or Coresound HEB's *might* be the best sounding.  I believe they sell for around $900-$1,000 but they'll probably pick up more crowd noise than a cardioid mic.

Clippable cardioid mics...the Sound Professionals have a bunch of 'em, $350 or less 
     http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=0

I'd recommend looking into Chris Church's cardioid mics and pre-amp.  Nice sounding and very reasonably priced.

Yes the IG fans are very loud at times just having a great sing-a-long time. So that is a consideration when looking at the different mics. What is a cardioid mic? Could you give me more info on Chris Church? I am not familliar.

Offline taosmay

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2007, 06:10:36 PM »
Hi - As for your confusion about some of the lingo in Brian's post: CB=Chris Busman, CM=Cascade Media, and OB=Oade Brothers. A>D's, or ADC, is an analog to digital convertor. Microphones (in general) are an analog signal, and you need to convert that into a digital signal by the time it gets to your recording media, unless you are recording in the analog domain, like cassette recorders.
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Offline taosmay

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2007, 06:15:18 PM »
You can frequently find Chris Church over in the "retail"section of this site. His ebay website is:
http://search.stores.ebay.ca/CHURCH-AUDIO_church-audio_W0QQftsZ2QQsaselZ49129617QQsatitleZchurchQ2daudioQQsofpZ0 or http://www.church-audio.ca/  if that link is too long. I just bought his stc-11 cardiod mic's and ca-9100 mic pre-amp, and were very pleased with the results in a recent festival.
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Offline Girlygirl

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2007, 06:15:57 PM »
Thanks taosmay. So I need to purchase a ADC? Can that be done with Audacity? I was hoping to record something, connect it to my PC with a USB and burn cd's. Is there something as simple as that? I don't need to use Audacity, it is just something I have on my PC.

Offline willyp523

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2007, 06:25:03 PM »
An ADC isn't necessary, but you'd probably get better sound with one.  Keep in mind with an ADC you would need a recorder with digital input.  And it all should fit your budget.

Cardioid is the pick up pattern of the mic.  Simply put, a cardioid will pick up the most sound in the direction which it is pointed.  While an omni-directional or binaural mic will pick up sound from behind you nearly as well as in front of you.  I started recording with a binaural and was disappointed with the amount of crowd noise I was getting.  People behind me would talk and on playback it came through loud and clear.  With a cardioid they would have been more in the background. 
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Offline taosmay

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2007, 06:29:39 PM »
You do not need to purchase an _outboard/external_ ADC, since almost any recording device you purchase will likely have it's own internal ADC, and will therefore do that job for you. People generally  purchase external ADC's, because they want to improve on the sound quality of the analog to digital conv., over the built-in one on their recorder. Although I have not used Audacity, I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with ADC's. Having something recorded, and then using that source to connect via USB to your computer, and burning to CD should not be a problem, as long as you have a drive in your PC that burns cd's, and can use software(like Audacity) to split tracks/normalize/add gain.

Harold
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Offline Girlygirl

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2007, 06:30:27 PM »
I think I need a recorder with a digital imput. What kind would be recommended and fit my budget? It sounds like I need cardioid mics. IG fans are also sometimes chatty.

Offline willyp523

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2007, 06:33:29 PM »
Without looking again...I believe all the recorders recommended so far have digital inputs.
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Offline Girlygirl

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2007, 06:34:36 PM »
You do not need to purchase an _outboard/external_ ADC, since almost any recording device you purchase will likely have it's own internal ADC, and will therefore do that job for you. People generally  purchase external ADC's, because they want to improve on the sound quality of the analog to digital conv., over the built-in one on their recorder. Although I have not used Audacity, I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with ADC's. Having something recorded, and then using that source to connect via USB to your computer, and burning to CD should not be a problem, as long as you have a drive in your PC that burns cd's, and can use software(like Audacity) to split tracks/normalize/add gain.

Harold

Thanks Harold. I will look for recorders that have an internal ADC then. Do any of you know which ones do??? What software have you used Harold?

Offline taosmay

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Re: Please Help
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2007, 06:45:34 PM »
Please do not take my word as an authority on the subject...as many have said, listening with your own ears to recordings such as on archive.org helps with what you personally like..and like I said, almost any recording device you purchase will likely have it's own internal ADC. I'm a Mac person, and have used Toast w/Jam software.
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CA 14 cardioid mic's/CA 11 croakie mic's > CA-9200 > Edirol R-09HR

 

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