Topic: Rate/Help Improve My System

[Mr.Fantasy]

I have had many different playback setups....but after all the switching around with my brother and I going to college this is what I've got...

Tape Deck:
I am playing cassettes through a Sony (I forgot the model but its just a replacement for my dads Nakamichi deck that is still in for repairs) ->

EQ:
Behringer Ultragraph Pro FBQ3102 (for tweaking my dad's cassettes before burning them on my TEAC Cd Recorder) ->

CD Burning Device:
TEAC CD-RW some model # I can't remember it was about $200 ish....->

Receiver:
Some kind of Yamaha receiver that is reall designed for surround sound I think (judging by the ports)...but I have a Pioneer 950 or 850.....the old wooden box style (what you find under "vintage receivers on E-bay")

Speakers:
And all this eventually comes out of a nice pair of JBL L100's.....

I want all advice you can muster......i.e. what you use....what you think is missing from my setup, what is good in my setup.....where the HUGE gapping holes are.......etc.

[Brian Skalinder]

As with recording gear, need a budget to provide any meaningful feedback.

[BC]

I dunno about how good those jbl speakers are, but IMHO speakers are the 1st thing to upgrade.

[cshepherd]

Sell it all and let God sort it out!

Chris

[Mr.Fantasy]

Well....I hadn't really allocated funds to this purpose from my primary Recording budget of +/-$3000....

.....but lets say I wanted to, or should I say would be able to put $1500-$2000 into it.....just for conversation sake......probably closer to $1500....

[Mr.Fantasy]

I dunno about how good those jbl speakers are, but IMHO speakers are the 1st thing to upgrade.

Okay....well IMHO the JBL's sound great....I am soon to take them to my local Speaker Dr. and have him assess them....but from a literal interpretation of what I hear....it is full loud and clear....

What are some of the favorite Speaker brands.....?

[cshepherd]

I would recommend working on your speaker placement first.  They should be off the rear wall by at least a foot or two.  I would also recommend placing them on old milk crates (or something similar) so they are not directly on the floor.  If possible, spread them out in some sort of symmetrical fashion along a wall, pointed in slightly (not facing each other on opposite sides of the room).  If you want to buy something, start with your player, then work your way down the signal path.  It all starts with your source.  I've witnessed a decent front end and new cables transform old-school systems like yours on multiple occasions.  I have to disagree with BC regarding speaker replacement.  I think your speakers are good enough to be taken along for the ride, at least for a while.

Chris

[Sanjay]

Well....I hadn't really allocated funds to this purpose from my primary Recording budget of +/-$3000....

.....but lets say I wanted to, or should I say would be able to put $1500-$2000 into it.....just for conversation sake......probably closer to $1500....

If you want to put that much into it, i'd just say perhaps start over.

I just spent that much and have this setup, I am 110% thrilled with it.

Oppo DVD Player - Transport - $120 refurb
Music Hall Mambo - Integrated Amp - $580 used
Von Schweichart VR-1's - Speakers - $425 used
Nick's Picks Cables (coming soon) - don't remember
Thorens Turtable - $50 at a thrift store, this thing's a beast.

The only thing I'm lacking is a good phono pre and a shelf.  I love how this sounds though.

[Mr.Fantasy]

Well you know I'm not set on throwing money away, and would rather spend it on recording equipment....


....what does "reference quality" entail?

[cheshirecat]

Well you know I'm not set on throwing money away, and would rather spend it on recording equipment....

Huh?  what do you consider throwing money away?

[BJ]

Well you know I'm not set on throwing money away, and would rather spend it on recording equipment....

Huh?  what do you consider throwing money away?

I took it to mean that he already has some pieces, so starting over is not what he is after.

[Mr.Fantasy]

Well you know I'm not set on throwing money away, and would rather spend it on recording equipment....

Huh?  what do you consider throwing money away?

All I meant was that I don't want to overkill on buying....i.e. I have a nice set of JBL L100's that in my opinion sound fantastic....I am still going to have them looked at b/c they have never been serviced since 76 or whatever.....

I just don't want to buy brand new stuff I my current equipment is still adequate....

[cheshirecat]

Well you know I'm not set on throwing money away, and would rather spend it on recording equipment....

Huh?  what do you consider throwing money away?

All I meant was that I don't want to overkill on buying....i.e. I have a nice set of JBL L100's that in my opinion sound fantastic....I am still going to have them looked at b/c they have never been serviced since 76 or whatever.....

I just don't want to buy brand new stuff I my current equipment is still adequate....

I agree whole heartedly, if you're happy with a component by all means don't change it.  I had a pair of large advents that I sorely miss, however the just don't fit in my current space.

Anyway, with what you have, I would look at transport and possibly a new integrated amp.  Personally I'm a tube fan, if you buy used (check out www.audiogon.com) you can always re-list something if you don't like it and pretty much break even.  It would be a good way to try out a few different items and see what you like... it may end up that you are happy with what you're currently running, but it never hurts to try... unless you get the upgrade bug  

What do you normally listen to as a source? CD?

[Mr.Fantasy]

Cd's, cassettes (my dads grateful dead masters), and I occasionally hook up my ipod to listen to my modern music...

[Nick's Picks]

Oppo DVD Player - Transport - $120 refurb
Music Hall Mambo - Integrated Amp - $580 used
Von Schweichart VR-1's - Speakers - $425 used
Nick's Picks Cables (coming soon) - don't remember
Thorens Turtable - $50 at a thrift store, this thing's a beast.

thats some good shit on the cheap right there.
I really, really liked the Mambo when I had one.

Personally, I would not want the 30 year old JBLs in my system.  Maybe they are great...a classic even..but I like newer technology. 
You could get something 15 years old that i'm sure would smoke those.

now..for quality w/o breaking the bank, there are more options than you want to know.
I am a fan of the Epos speaker line.  They sound excellent...every model.
Your vintage receiver might be something to have gone over by a company that does modifications or restoration of vintage gear.

meet your new best friend:  www.audiogon.com
buy used!

[Nick's Picks]

is this your receiver ?
http://tinyurl.com/25frmv
i'd keep that.

get a new source (oppo !!)
new cables
new speakers

speaker placement, as Chris suggested is crucial.  Even w/what you are running you can make a huge improvement.  Go w/the basic triangle approach.

think of your listening position.  how far away from the speakers are you (in a straight line).
now space them out an equal distance (or a little less) so you are making a triangle w/equal distance from your head to each speaker, and them from each other.
pull the speakers out a solid foot from the rear wall, and equal distance from the side walls.
play some white noise.  you can generate some w/software and burn a disc. 
a dead radio station w/static noise will also work.

you will want to listen to pink or white noise to "dial in" the speakers.  the goal is to have the static sound like its a "ball of noise" that is hovering in mid air between the speakers.  Ideally, you will not be able to perceive the sound emanating from the speakers themselves.

start w/the speakers pointing dead ahead.  have someone (its easier w/two people, one listening and the other tweaking) move the speakers in towards your head (toed in) ...just like an inch or so at a time until you get that "ball affect".
You might find that the speakers end up pointing to your shoulders while you are seated in the "sweet spot" instead of the straight ahead stance of where you started.
or...maybe not.  depends on the speakers and the room, and how they play together.

Once you get that white noise dialed in as best you can (you may find it doesn't work at all due to limitations of the speakers performance..and if that is the case, get new speakers) then you can put on some music that you are very familiar with.  Start with studio stuff (real releases and not AUD taped) and see what you think. 

Hopefully, you will experience good imaging.  Meaning that the music sort of floats in air, comes from "nothing" instead of the speakers.  You'll hear voices, drums etc, coming from dead nuts between the speakers and not from the sides.  Other sounds may come from way outside the speakers, or even seem to come from behind.
In a perfect setup, the music is completely holographic and is all around you...and you absolutely can't tell that the speakers are even "on" as you can't sense them as the source of sound.

Thats what we strive for any way.


the Stereophile test CD #2 is excellent for seeing how things are working, and also has white/pink noise tracks.

[Nick's Picks]

one more thing...and you've sort of been led this way...

as a music lover, which you obviously are....
I'd start w/the Stereo w/your $3k budget.  You can do great things with $1500.
put the rest towards the recording rig.

getting into high end playback , I can honestly say, was the BEST thing I ever did in my musical pursuits.  I sold my "dream rig" to make it happen, and I have never, ever looked back.  my stereo has changed more times than my underwear, but I just love it to death.
with so many awesome recording rigs out there, and so many people recording the "mainstream" record-able acts..., its better to be able to listen to everyones stuff over your fat stereo.
there is my $.02.

[Mr.Fantasy]

Cool....thanks.

I only have one doubt about what you have been saying...and that is doubting the vintage speakers...I mean maybe they wouldn't be technically superior or anything, but I think they would smoke quite a few modern speakers I have heard in a head to head.

Maybe not.

Does anyone else use these speakers or maybe you used to have a pair....? Comments? 

I would consider changing them. But I would have to be convinced of the sound quality improvement......cause if there are way better speakers out there than these I need to hear them!!!!!

Wow....I got goose bumps thinking about it....

[Church-Audio]

I dunno about how good those jbl speakers are, but IMHO speakers are the 1st thing to upgrade.

Okay....well IMHO the JBL's sound great....I am soon to take them to my local Speaker Dr. and have him assess them....but from a literal interpretation of what I hear....it is full loud and clear....

What are some of the favorite Speaker brands.....?

The l100 JBL speakers are very nice indeed.. I had a pair. I would make sure the surrounds have not started to crack. An easy fix if they have but man they do sound very nice.

Chris

[Nick's Picks]

there ya go.
personally, I know nothing of these jbls...other than that they are old and technology has progressed and quality has become cheaper than it was 30 years ago.

[Nick's Picks]

Wow....I got goose bumps thinking about it....

the goal is goose bumps listening to it.
;-)

[cheshirecat]

there ya go.
personally, I know nothing of these jbls...other than that they are old and technology has progressed and quality has become cheaper than it was 30 years ago.

I honestly don't know if I believe that statement, speakers are different today, but I wouldn't always say better. 

The JBL L100s (retailed for $399/pair in 1971 which equates to $2029 in today's dollars) are very highly regarded for their time, along with the Large Advents and Marantz Imperial 6/7s... Nick, you sound like quite a tinkerer, I highly recommend getting out and trying some of the aforementioned speakers, I think you'll be surprised what you find.  They may not look sexy the way some of today's designs do, but they do sing. 

The only mods I did on the large advents were to rebuild the crossovers with solen caps and refoam the woofers... and I miss them, I sent them up to my brother's place and he is running them now.

[Church-Audio]

there ya go.
personally, I know nothing of these jbls...other than that they are old and technology has progressed and quality has become cheaper than it was 30 years ago.

I honestly don't know if I believe that statement, speakers are different today, but I wouldn't always say better. 

The JBL L100s (retailed for $399/pair in 1971 which equates to $2029 in today's dollars) are very highly regarded for their time, along with the Large Advents and Marantz Imperial 6/7s... Nick, you sound like quite a tinkerer, I highly recommend getting out and trying some of the aforementioned speakers, I think you'll be surprised what you find.  They may not look sexy the way some of today's designs do, but they do sing. 

The only mods I did on the large advents were to rebuild the crossovers with solen caps and refoam the woofers... and I miss them, I sent them up to my brother's place and he is running them now.

The best sounding speakers I ever owned for there size was a set of advent 3's I purchased at a salvation army for $3.00!!! for shits and giggles I hooked them up to my $3,000 stereo and sat them on top of my $1,500 speakers and my jaw hit the floor. They were made in 1974 and I have to say I now regret getting rid of them.. Age does effect speakers. But as long as they were never abused and the surrounds on the woofers are intact. They can rival anything made today. Speaker technology has not changed much in the last 50 years as far as how raw speakers are made. One notable exception is the magnetic material that the speakers magnets are made from. Older speakers Like advents and JBL'S used alnico magnets not ceramic that is used today.. They did sound different allot of people prefer the sound of alnico magnets over ceramic. I am one of them. Nobody makes speakers out of alnico anymore because its a very rare very expensive material. So not everything old is crap So I agree with cheshirecat 100%

[Mr.Fantasy]

I hope you are right too Mr. Church...

If so I have saved money already....

[Church-Audio]

I hope you are right too Mr. Church...

If so I have saved money already....

I think placement of the speakers is #1 I think its also important to have some nice power behind your speakers. You can always upgrade the rest of your system, and if you dont like the JBL speakers you own you can always ebay them for $400.00 or so.. So move on upgrade the rest of your gear IMO start with a good amp/receiver then look at your cd player ect. I think for $1500 we are not talking separate power amp and separate preamp. So this should narrow the field. Ask your self what you want to be able to do with this system is it strictly audio playback? if so you dont need a lot of bells and whistles in your receiver. If you want video as well as audio then you want to look at the surround features of the amp in question.. Just my two cents.. And remember opinions are like assholes everyone got one.. What sounds good to me might not sound good to you! so listen to the suggestions visit the stereo shop and decide for your self.. But be warned allot of stereo shops have things set up real nice.. I always listen to anything with a FLAT EQ... everything at 12o'clock on most stereos is theoreticly at least flat.. Then I always bring with me music that I am 100% familiar with. Don't listen to the shit the stereo salesman wants you to hear. He has already picked something that sounds very good on the stereo you want to listen too.. Be your own judge.. in the end its not me that is going to be setting in your living room dealing with your stereo its you!Chris

[Nick's Picks]

personally, if a stereo has tone controls, I don't want it.
but thats me.

for $1500, you can easily get separates (preamp / power amp).
there are some *wonderful* amps out there for $400 and under.  Classics...like the B&K ST-140 for example.  warm and fat sounding...a cult classic (and my first real amp as well).

I have recently become a huge fan/fluffer of Odyssey equipment.
check them out.  they sell a new system (no source) for $1500 that is a preamp, power amp and their "epiphany" monitors.  I've heard it is super.

One of my favorite low cost rigs I've built in the last few years consisted of a Music Hall MAMBO integrated amp and a pair of Epos M12.2 monitors.  It was quite awesome...for the $1000 I spent on the package.

[Nick's Picks]

oh...
and if you do decide to get new speakers...., its not easy ..., but VERY fun to play with a spanky new pair of (or used) ... Magnepan MMGs.

$550 brand new.  common around $350 used.

[cheshirecat]

The guy says he's happy with his speakers, so why change them?

Personally I'd look for some integrated amps to play with, try something with tubes, it will certainly be a different sound than you are used to with your pioneer.  Again, buy used and you can resell if you don't like it or if it isn't just exactly perfect.

I'd also look at your transport, get something nice.  People like the oppo gear since it hits a nice price point, but I personally haven't heard it.  Have fun with it and if you like something, stick with it.

[Nick's Picks]

the vintage system you currently run seems like no slouch...
if you can get that "ball of static" w/your current setup after some placement tweaking..., then just buy yourself a good source (dvd player).
"crap in, crap out"
rule of thumb.

the playback end of this hobbie is far more diverse than the recording end.  lots of trouble to get into.

[Nick's Picks]

The guy says he's happy with his speakers, so why change them?

just tossing out random thoughts.  opinions are like apples, remember?
oh..., wait, was that oranges? 
something like that.

[cheshirecat]

The guy says he's happy with his speakers, so why change them?

just tossing out random thoughts.  opinions are like apples, remember?
oh..., wait, was that oranges? 
something like that.

haha, i'm just bitter that i got rid of my vintage speakers for something i liked at the time but am no longer thrilled with... I'm just trying to avoid upgrading before I move to a place with more space.

+T atcha

[Nick's Picks]

while vintage is cool and all...
its just my personal tastes.  the speakers "move".....and over time..., that starts to kill em.
plus, electronics have gotten better...even if the design is relatively the same.

that is not to say that there are exceptional vintages deals out there.  I'm just a technology nut.
my current speakers are a solid 12 years old, if not more.
http://67.19.167.226/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=3970
a little dated...I dont run that Integrated any more.  Odyssey Stratos mono blocks now.
  still hunting for a preamp,...i'm using the digital volume control of my Oppo 971, which is connected directly to the amps.  I certainly dont have the gain that a preamp will offer w/this setup, but damn..it sounds stupid good for its simplicity.
Before these, my previous speakers were 10 years old.  I dont think I've ever run anything brand new...well, I guess there were some B&Ws 10 years ago...

I love used gear.
+T to all !!!!

[Mr.Fantasy]

Sorry if I haven't responded to all of these very informative posts....

.....I have just been reading so much and it seems like everytime I get ready to make a response I get distracted by some other Nugget of information.....

.....but +T's to all for sure.....

[Church-Audio]

Sorry if I haven't responded to all of these very informative posts....

.....I have just been reading so much and it seems like everytime I get ready to make a response I get distracted by some other Nugget of information.....

.....but +T's to all for sure.....

'Nugget of information" I like that..

[Nick's Picks]

I feel a nugget coming on now...

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

9 in the morning on saturday is cartoon time .

I still have the infinity RS6b speakers I bought in 1986.  They can't compete head to head against the VSAs in the big system but they are still very strong.  There was a pigpen demo tape floating around about 12 years ago when I was running DA20>CJ SC26>GFA-555>RS6b and I heard that demo tape image like he was sitting on a stool in front of my couch.  The MV50>RS6b was stunning for the price.

If you love those speakers, I would agree that upgrading source and power is maybe the first thing to do.  Any systems perfomance is constrained by the weakest component.  So upgrade the frontend and if you can't hear the improvement you expect, then try updating the speakers.  I went through several component upgrades with the RS6bs before the percieved improvements started to diminish.  I went through a couple of amps, a couple of DACs and even wire upgrades and the improvements were still noticable with the vintage infinities.  Then I swapped in Thiels and the improvement was astounding.  The speaker upgrade allowed an another couple of active component upgrades to yield obvious improvements before I got the VSAs. 

[growltiger]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned acoustic treatment -- depending on the room you have your stuff in, adding some bass traps could be a better investment than any piece of gear.

[carlbeck]

Well you know I'm not set on throwing money away, and would rather spend it on recording equipment....


....what does "reference quality" entail?

"reference quality" is not a market any of us play in quite frankly but we do have our own "references" I have heard the JBL's a lot growing up, my father had a pair & I bought him a replacement pair a few years back since I killed his when I was a kid. They are "good" speakers but do not compare to others as far as inner detail, imaging & spatial cues are concerned. Yep they sound good but they are just not as refined as others, others can mean newer or not but basically "better" to coin a term.  Your ears are your judge but until you hear other/better components it is hard to judge. Nick & I have spent a ton of stereo gear & we have bought sold a ton, we swap between each other & listen to a lot, some of it has been a waste of money while some of it has not. What it has done & what makes it worth every penny is that we have learned along the way, we both have totally different systems & taste in systems. Each individual decides what works best for them, whether dictated by economics, room considerations or wife acceptance factors. Nick's advice is good advice, spend more on your home rig than your recording rig. You will be surprised at what your NOT hearing, it is also the best thing I have ever done. He & I always tell everyone the same thing & it isn't being elitist or trying to be assholes it is because both of us realized after a ton of trial & error how good a stereo can REALLY sound. I wish someone told me to upgrade my playback before I sold my CMC64's, 248, 148, V3, Mini-Me, 480's, mod SBM-1, etc. etc. I know for myself I am not even close to being done with my playback rig, my rig has been "downsized" due to some life changes & while this rig is half the value of my previous playback rig it is more musically satisfying, it is all about learning & trying new gear. Hear would be my "reference rig" if economics allowed, I can promise you it would recreate a live event as close as possible:

speakers: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1191029187

cables: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1191598891
plus an additional 3k for interconnects & IC's

amps: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1190687707

pre-amp: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1190749787

source: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1192758910

This is ONLY about 60k USED, a sensible rig in reference terms, if money was no concern it would something like this:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1046786872&read&3&4&

I don't even want to GUESS what he has into that system!

[Stagger]

If money grew on trees and I owned a orchard:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1145687662&read&3&4&